Christ was not created&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Participant

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Christ was Created claim:
Based SOLELY on this scripture many have stated that Christ has been created in the beginning.
Which i strongly believe is false.
the only scripture that is commonly used to prove this claim Is Col1:15

The logic and evidences they use to prove this claim is
1. Because he is Son he was created, since he is a child he was born, therefore created.
2. That he is the beginning and he was created so that everything was made through him. (context of Col 1)
3. He is called firstborn in other places.
4. first of all creation since he was first born amoung creatures

Refutation Claim: First born was never intended to define Jesus as a being that was created but rather a being that has preeminent.

Christ was not Created

The burden of Proof is to reveal other scriptures that directly state that Christ was created in some fashion or form. The only biblical verse that ever eludes to the idea that Christ was created is that one verse.
There is no other proof or hint otherwise. to make a belief based on one verse alone is the number one fallacy in homilitecs.
We all know that firstborn is actually protokos in greek.
This CLAIM can be easily dismantled by proving that 1:15 means something rather than “first being created” since its the only evidence that supports this cliam. That means that all arguements foundation is this verse.

1. Christ is never mentioned as taking part in creation in the whole Old Testament.
In the whole old testament there isnt one mention of christ ever being created, therefore the old testament is already dropped and can support the cliam that Christ was created. So the burden of proof falls only on the new testament which makes this claim a fallacy already since the whole bible should be considered.

2. The usage of the beginning does not suggest that Christ was Created.
Reference of Christ existing in the begginning is in John 1:1 and Revelations as the Alpha, Hebrews where he is stated of taking part as Creator. None of the above suggests that he was created as a being, or that God gave him the breath of life.
Consider the Old testament and how all creation was noted as created by the Creator. From Genesis we know the universe was we know it as created and all the living creatures in it. And what God created is even clarfied through out the old testament and even in Job in reference to angels as created beings themselves.

The New Testament that John and Paul present the idea that Jesus took part as creator, but it never claiming he was created. The gospels present that Jesus was Sanctified and Sent. and The epistles of Paul present that Jesus was pre-existing and as creator. John presents Jesus as the Word who also took part in creation from the beginning and was the word made flesh.

No where does it say that the “Word” was created nor does it imply that since Jesus existed in the beginning that he was created. Basically just because he existed or took part in creation does not mean he, himself was created.

3. The Term First Born .
The term first born is used in many parts of the bible in reference to men haveing a firstborn child. Common usage of the first child being born.
This term that is used does not suggest that Jesus was the first child born or the first created being born.
Why?
consider exodus 4:22 the only other place that God uses the word Firstborn
and thou hast said unto Pharaoh, Thus said Jehovah, My son,My first-born is Israel,

What does this mean? The word firstborn in the hebrew culture and in many cultures is always used to not only represent the first child being born, but the “Inheritance” of the child, in other words the first born rights and inheritance they receive after the Father dies.

Jesus needs to be First in our lives in every situation. Jesus said that if we do not hate our parents (for example) than we cannot follow him, suggesting the idea that our own family are not first but he is.
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Firstborn is not in reference to first created but rather pre-eminent or heir to ALL things. That he may be First in all things rather than “created” or “born” into all things.

Lets consider other scriptures that use the words firstborn,
Psalm 89:27 I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
This verse represents that Jesus was Appointed Firstborn, just like how Jacob received his firstborn rights, its the rights that are being metioned but not the action of being firstborn. Whats important is what is received.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
The only one by the Fathers side and no other. He is the only son, not the firstborn amoung many, but the only Son of God. The only Image, and since he is appointd God made him “known” to us.
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Though the term firstborn is being used, we need to look at the verse closely. these “brothers” are going to be in the likeness of the son, This is the cause, and the effect of These who are “predestined” is that he may be Firstborn.
So to say that he was first born in creation would be faulty in the logic considering the cause and effect of what the verse is impying. That because we are predistned in the likness of the son, he might be FIRST above all things, the heir of all thigns, above all things, or in other words above all the brothers.
Revelation 1:5
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
Firstborn of the dead, which we know that others were raised of the dead as well, only suggest Jesus pre-eminence, that he made be the First of the raised or in other words above those who are raised for they are raised through him.

Sub point A: Family and Creature usage
Though the term firstborn is used, Jesus is not a creature, and since we know in romans he is also called the firstborn amoung many brethern than we know it does not imply in a family association.
The meaning of first born is not used in a family assocation beceause all creation is not a family, and the son of God is the only Son of God. There is no other Son of God, he is the only one with that Position and title. As we all are sons of God in general, there is not one sons of God that was begotten of God. In other words we all are Bene-elohim, but there is not one Son of God other than Jesus Christ.
he is the only Son of God, Son of Man that has ever exisited. There is no one like him, other than himself.

Jesus is the Firstborn of Creature/Creation, among Brethern, and of the Dead. The term Firstborn has nothing to do with family association because since he is the only Son of God, general creation is not included as part of bene-elohim becuase it contradicts the family term used in romans, BUT romans is depeneded of those who are predistened so that he may be FIRST, and he is the First of the Dead, implying he is the first among the Raised. Each one does not apply to the beginning o
f time, nor does it relate to when Creation started. Again the only one verse that refers to the beginning of creation is 1:15 and the usage is not family associated.

4. 1:15 is evidence of Preeminence and not creation
With all this said, we know the above scripture describe the preemience of Christ. That he must be First of all things.

The best way to prove the ONE and only scriptures 1:15
describes Preeminence rather than created being is the context of scripture.

we know that the context runs from verse 14-19.
But paul who is wise made Claims, and like any debater, he proved his claims.
First he stated what Christ is, the image of the invisble, than he proved his cliam by stating what he Did, and than gave his conclusion of his analyisis which is vs 18.
Colossians 1:18
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Since this is the Context of Scripture this is THE PROOF that Pauls logic was based on the idea that Jesus is preeminent!
not that he was created.

The above first uses four terms in relation to eachother,
1. Jesus as the Head,
2.The Beginning,
3. Firstborn of the dead,
4, In ALL have preeminence,

These four terms relate to only one idea, so that Christ may be FIRST. And when i say first, what i really mean is that Christ has the HIGHEST RANK that exists within this universe. That he is the highest rank over creation and the heir to all things.

The Context Expresses Jesus role as Creator and how he created in the beginning. Therefore the goal of Paul was to show how powerful and how wonderful Jesus is for it was a breif summary of what Jesus did in the beginning of pauls letter.
The context itself was proof enough to show that the direction or the point that Paul was focused on was that Jesus is above all things. The Context itself proves that he is A CREATOR and NOT CREATED. That he MAKES AND CREATES but not CREATED.

This idea is also expressed in other verses of Paul espistles such as

Ephesians 1:
20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Daniel 7:14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Collossians 1:19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

And there is many verses that explain how Jesus will fill all things and how he has the highest rank possible above creation.

Conclusion:
Collossians 1:15 was never intended to be used to express the idea that Jesus was created, but it orginaly used to express Jesus's preeminence. The cliam that Jesus was created is only supported by ONE VERSE ALONE, which cannot be held as truth. Firstborn does not imply familiy association because he is the only Son of God, neither does existing in the beginning imply that he was created. The usage of firstborn was used in the form of heir or as cheif, or as a source since the context painted him out to be a “CREATOR” and not “CREATED”. That he is above all things, because he was not only in the beginning but IS THE BEGINNING and since the beginning was above all principalities and powers, and through his testimony, he was made above all things even within our very lives and as we are raised from death. for death has no hold on him, but through him he is the the most qualified to overcome death. Therefore Jesus Is Preeminent of all things, the King of Kings the Lord of Lords.

1 Timothy 6:15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

September 12, 2010 at 9:17 am#216046

Participant

Lu please let me know what you think

September 12, 2010 at 1:00 pm#216100

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 12 2010,19:52)

Christ was not Created

Hi SF,

Rev.3:14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev.1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,
and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the
earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

September 12, 2010 at 6:15 pm#216122

Blocked

Hi Dennison,

Great preparation and presentation! The whole lay out was well thought out and beautifully presented…….BUT…….

SF:

Quote

The only biblical verse that ever eludes to the idea that Christ was created is that one verse.
There is no other proof or hint otherwise. to make a belief based on one verse alone is the number one fallacy in homilitecs.

I believe you have misspoken because “we” also have Rev 3:14, which says,

Revelation 3:14 (King James Version)
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

SF:

Quote

In the whole old testament there isnt one mention of christ ever being created, therefore the old testament is already dropped and can support the cliam that Christ was created. So the burden of proof falls only on the new testament which makes this claim a fallacy already since the whole bible should be considered.

How about these:

Proverbs 8:22-23 NIV
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

23 I was fashioned from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.

Micah 5:2 NIV
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

SF:

Quote

None of the above suggests that he was created as a being, or that God gave him the breath of life.

“You are my Son” and “I have begotten you” surely give the idea that Jesus became a being and was “given the breath of life” by his Father.

Psalm 2:7 NIV
7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.”

SF:

Quote

The New Testament that John and Paul present the idea that Jesus took part as creator, but it never claiming he was created.

John quotes Jesus as saying he is the “beginning OF the creation of God”, and Paul says Jesus is the “firstborn OF every creature”. John says all things came to be THROUGH him and Paul says all things came FROM the Father THROUGH Jesus.

SF:

Quote

Common usage of the first child being born.

That is correct Dennison. The term “firstborn” has the default meaning of “the one born first”. And EVERY time in scripture that it refers to one other than “the one born first”, it is either DIRECTLY stated or CLEARLY implied. Israel is called God's “firstborn”. Now we have to conject that means Israel was given the “firstborn” rights over all the other nations of the earth. Was Israel the first ever nation of the earth? No, and we know that from scripture, so in this case, it is CLEARLY implied that the title is not a natural one, but an appointed one.

SF:

Quote

This term that is used does not suggest that Jesus was the first child born or the first created being born.

Why not? Is there something to make us think it suggests something different? Also, the “firstborn” is always a part of the group mentioned. David was appointed the “firstborn among kings of the earth” which means he was a part OF the group of “kings of the earth”. Jesus being the “firstborn OF all creation” means he has to be part OF “all creation”. For example, King David could not be referred to as the “firstborn calf”. David was a human being, not cattle, so he could never be given that title.

SF:

Quote

Firstborn is not in reference to first created but rather pre-eminent or heir to ALL things.

But “preeminent” means “peerless” or the ONLY top dog. If Jesus is the ONLY top dog that is over creation, where does that leave his Father and God…….the one of whom he is still a servant?

SF:

Quote

The only one by the Fathers side and no other. He is the only son, not the firstborn amoung many, but the only Son of God.

But you misspeak again. Jesus isn't called God's ONLY SON, for God has many. He IS called God's only BEGOTTEN Son, of which God has only one. In contrast, Jesus is called the “firstborn of all creation” – not the ONLYBORN of all creation – because he IS the first one to come into existence of many.

SF:

Quote

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

So to say that he was first born in creation would be faulty in the logic considering the cause and effect of what the verse is implying. That because we are predistned in the likness of the son, he might be FIRST above all things,

You can take “firstborn from the dead” a couple of different ways. Since we scripturally know of others who were raised from the dead before Jesus, this could be a case of “firstborn” actually meaning Jesus has been given the firstborn rights over the others. Or “firstborn from the dead” might mean Jesus was the first one raised from the dead to ETERNAL LIFE, which is not said about any of the others who were raised from the dead – but IS said about his “brothers” who will follow.

At any rate, the use of the word “firstborn” here is in a completely different context than the use of “firstborn of every creature”, so it is comparing apples to oranges and says nothing to support your theory that Jesus isn't a part OF creation.

SF:

Quote

Though the term firstborn is used, Jesus is not a creature,

You haven't proven that, so you shouldn't assert it.

SF:

Quote

Again the only one verse that refers to the beginning of creation is 1:15 and the usage is not family associated.

No, in Rev 3:14 Jesus himself says he is the “beginning of the creation of God”. But think “part of the group of things”, not “family”. The nation of Israel is not part of the “family” of nations of the earth, but a part of the “group of nations of the earth”. Jesus being the “firstborn of all creation” means he is part of THE GROUP of “created things”. And even if “firstborn from among the dead” DOES mean he was given firstborn rights over others who were actually before him, it still means that Jesus is a part of THE GROUP of those raised from the dead.

SF:

Quote

Colossians 1:18
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Since this is the Context of Scripture this is THE PROOF that Pauls logic was based on the idea that Jesus is preeminent!
not that he was created.

NET
…so that he himself may become first in all things.

NASB
…so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

NLT
…so he is first in everything.

BBE
…so that in all things he might have the chief place.

NRSV
…so that he might come to have first place in everything.

NWT
…, that he might become the one who is first in all things;

Second, whether or not “firstborn of all creation” in 1:15 is literal, it doesn't change Paul's assertion that Jesus is “first in all things”. And 1:19 goes on to say that the reason Jesus is first in all things is because Jesus' God wanted it that way.

SF:

Quote

And when i say first, what i really mean is that Christ has the HIGHEST RANK that exists within this universe. That he is the highest rank over creation and the heir to all things.

Again, if Jesus has the HIGHEST RANK, then where does that leave the One Jesus calls “my God”? The One Jesus said was both his God and our God. The One Jesus is still a servant to? Jesus is NOT the Father God, so if Jesus is the HIGHEST, then that means the Father is NOT.

SF:

Quote

The Context Expresses Jesus role as Creator and how he created in the beginning.

Where is Jesus ever called the “Creator”? All things came FROM God, our Creator, THROUGH His Son.

SF:

Quote

And there is many verses that explain how Jesus will fill all things and how he has the highest rank possible above creation.

None of the scriptures you quote deny the fact that Jesus was caused to exist by his God. And Jesus' God has the “highest rank possible above creation”, not Jesus. Jesus comes in a close second though, because that's how his God willed it to be.

Dennison, what is your ultimate goal here? If Jesus wasn't created, then what are you claiming? Are you setting the basis to claim Jesus IS God Almighty? Do you think Jesus is equal to his God? I'm not sure where you are heading with this.

Good work though.

peace and love,
mike

September 13, 2010 at 12:22 am#216156

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 13 2010,00:00)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 12 2010,19:52)

Christ was not Created

Hi SF,

Are you not saying Christ was “A Men” <– Click on this Link

Rev.3:14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;

Hi SF,

What creature? Jesus perhaps?
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
‘A dichotomy’ that Dennison needs to get past!

Romans 1:25 22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools (Romans 3:12-18),
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image(Image information Click Here),
and to birds(rapture doctrines), and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God
also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour
their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie,
and worshipped and served the creature(יהשוע) more than the Creator(יהוה),
who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Deuteronomy 5:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire:
ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform,
even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And
the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments,
that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. Take ye
therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude
on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the
fire(John 14:9*): Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image
(Isaiah 45:20-21), the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl
that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the
likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up
thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars,
even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them,
which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. (2Tm.2:15-16)

September 13, 2010 at 2:15 am#216172

Blocked

Good post and scriptural support Ed.

September 13, 2010 at 3:03 am#216178

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2010,13:15)

Good post and scriptural support Ed.

HI Mike,

I'll talk like Adam/gollamudi…

Thank you brother Mike.

Ed J

September 14, 2010 at 12:00 am#216305

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2010,18:00)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 12 2010,19:52)

Christ was not Created

Hi SF,

Rev.3:14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;

Ed J,
you are compelelty misinterprting scripture.

ARe YOU saying that Christ is simply a Man?

look this isnt a place to pick and choose things to fit your beliefs. Lets stick to scripture.

Its wise that Jesus stated the word “AMEN” which is actually a word in Hebrew, which means “truely” “or to happen”

What does that have to do with anything Ed J?
are you trying to prove that Jesus is a man by stating he is “amen”?

As i said before just because the word Beginning is mentioned does not mean he was created.

Again this word is not family associated for creation is mentioned.

AND

Notice the first thigns the “Amen” is saying, that he is the Faithful and True witness? witness of WHAT?

of the beginning of the creation of God? wait who created? and how can one witness his own creation?

did you witness when your parents conceived you?

i believe not.
Again this adds to the point, Jesus is the Faithful and True witness of the beginning of the creation of God.

to say otherwise is a conjecture.

September 14, 2010 at 12:13 am#216308

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 13 2010,05:22)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 13 2010,00:00)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 12 2010,19:52)

Christ was not Created

Hi SF,

Ed J,
are you being foolish? to you take me to be a fool?

Are you seriously believeing that Jesus fits the doctrine that all men are created equal? really?

So wait, in one instance your stating im following a “system of religion and traditions” while your trying to prove your point by qouteing or following the beliefs of the Forefathers of the USA Thomas Jefferson? Is this how your going to convince me Ed J?

Thats a big contradiction to accuse me to follow a system of religion and than with the same mouth qoute Thomas Jefferson and the American declaration of Independance.
Who Thomas Jefferson beliefs were questionable and lost themselves, for he was a diestest after all or something along those lines.

1: AMEN,
You totally dont even know what that means, if you did than you would have never linked wikipedias info about how “all men are created equal” nonsense.
That comepelty untopical.
So your totally confused about what that even means.

2. Let me address the rest of your nonsense.
A dichotomoy that Ed J needs to get past

I dont profess myself to be wise,
And maybe instead of spitting out one verse against a whole analysis maybe take the time and read and consider what i said, instead of thinking yourself wise enough to foolishly refute everything i said with one verse,and than accuse me to be a fool with another verse.

Its ok to disagree,
But i have much more respect for Mike to oppose the analysis than you, because your starting to act like Nick.

ONE LINERS is a debate fallacy,
posting ONE SCRIPTURE is also a debate fallacy,

not giving any logic to what your relating to as your posting scritpure is also a fallacy.

You stated a few verses here.

lets be straight forward, What are you trying to say Ed J?
are you trying to call me a fool? do you really want to go there?

September 14, 2010 at 12:50 am#216315

Lightenup

Participant

Dennison,
Whew you did write a long post at the beginning of this thread. I agree with much of what you say. I certainly agree that the Son was not created or a part of the created beings. I do not agree that He was appointed though as you state here:

Quote

Psalm 89:27 I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
This verse represents that Jesus was Appointed Firstborn, just like how Jacob received his firstborn rights, its the rights that are being metioned but not the action of being firstborn. Whats important is what is received.

Psalms 89:27 is about David, who is a type of Christ and there are some similarities but nothing exact.

I believe that He was the first to be born (not created) by God and is pre-eminent because He was the first to be born. The Bible uses the term 'begotten.' This 'birth' was not a result of a sexual act because God is self-sufficient and has no need for a counter-part. The details of how He was begotten are not written but the result of the begetting was an offspring called the begotten God.

September 14, 2010 at 1:34 am#216317

Participant

Hi Mike,
Im sorry its taking longer i had to take care of Ed J's nonsense.
On that nonsense note: Do you really agree with Ed J's that the hebrew Amen means that Jesus is “a Men” (lol) and his divine text of wikipedia that “All Men are created equal” from the Apostle Thomas Jefferson?

Does this even relate to the topic?
Im just asking sinced you gave him props.

Quote

Great preparation and presentation! The whole lay out was well thought out and beautifully presented…….

Thank you, im glad you could read it. I took my time on it the same as ya oldtimers do in every post. Im happy to know that you enjoyed it.

Quote

I believe you have misspoken because “we” also have Rev 3:14, which says,

Revelation 3:14 (King James Version)
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

I sure did not expect that. I did “misspoke” here.
But as i pointed out to Ed J.
That its easy to interpret.
Jesus is the “Amen” which means truely
He is Faithful and the True witness “of what??”
the beginning of the creation of God.

Quote

How about these:

Proverbs 8:22-23 NIV
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

23 I was fashioned from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.

Strange mine says something quite different
Proverbs 8: 22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Olam which is the Hebrew usaged for “everlasting” within both verses does not mean eternity but rather means a period of time.

Both Verses does not present that this entitiy was created. It presents that he was “THERE” not that he was creaeted himself. notice how it talks about how everything was created and its process.
Just the same when Jesus became flesh, it talked about his “birth”

but no where in the bible does it talk abuot how Jesus was created or how he was created.

But I must thank you for the verses though, I totally forgot about them and they have touched my heart once again. I was asking to connect the OT and the NT and you gave me its what i needed thank you.

Quote

“You are my Son” and “I have begotten you” surely give the idea that Jesus became a being and was “given the breath of life” by his Father.

We are talking about the when Time began, or in other words lets be specfic mike, im talking about Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1.
You have just referenced when within the Gospels is often refers to the baptism of Christ, which doesnt have to do with with what were are talking about.
doesnt that verse depends on this?
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
arnt they in reference to when God actually said it,and not that he will eventually say it? And what day is that? the day he is on the holy hill of zion?

Quote

I already talked about what is meant by Beginning.
I made a whole point about Firstborn.
Whether things come through Jesus or directly from God doesnt mean he was created.

Quote

So are you agreeing with me on this point? because i also said that this is something appointed and what not.

Quote

This contradicts what you just stated before this. Becuase what you lasted stated was my point, that just because it says Firstborn, it does not mean that its talking about being the literal first born. It refers to the rights or the Inhertiance of the firstborn and that is proved by its context.
Actually when one is first, it means he is Above all of them. We know that Jesus is not the first of the dead or raised, but He is above all of them. In other words the usage that Paul uses as Firstborn can be compared to roman 8 concerning brothers and in John concerning the dead,
He became firstborn by a cause, which effected that he became firstborn, in other words to be first above all.

Its the same that he is firstborn of every creature. Which would mean he is ABOVE creation. If he was created than that would defeat the whole purpose of what is said.

in other words he is not part of the group but the group is part of him.

Anyways this is all proven by the context in what HE did.

Quote

But “preeminent” means “peerless” or the ONLY top dog. If Jesus is the ONLY top
dog that is over creation, where does that leave his Father and God…….the one of whom he is still a servant?

I dont think you know what Preeminent truely means.

Definintion of Preeminent: eminent above or before others; superior; surpassing: He is preeminent in his profession.

—Synonyms
distinguished, peerless, supreme. See dominant.

In other words he is Supreme over everything.
Again if you believe that Jesus is God, its a easy concept to digest.
If Father and God seperate now? since you mention them seperate?
No matter what i say, im just stating what the point of scripture is saying that he is Preeminent over all things, and it pleased God for that to happen.

Quote

Is there Another Son like Jesus? so than he is the only one.
Every person is made sons of God through Jesus.
As Gentiles we are Adopted.
Either way the POINT of saying Firstborn, is not family associated, THERE IS NO OTHER like the Title of Son that Jesus has, so he is the only one.
look at what it is first said the Image of the Invisible and than firtborn of every creature. its comparable, Paul had something to relate to the Image and the Firstborn Terms.

Either way when one is firstborn its because the secondborn is alike in blood and relation but it is not first.
There is not a Second to Christ. He is First.

Thats why when he came to flesh he became the SECOND Adam. because he was ALIKE Adam, they had a relation.

There is no relation in the two terms for there is no other second born. And this is the only verse to ever express that idea. Even John 1:1 does not start out with such a thing when John was describing or trying to match Genesis 1:1. (conjecture of reasoning why John tried to write it in such a way)

Quote

Actualy mike the reason why i stated the verses are just the opposite, it was to prove that these scriptures does not support the theory that Jesus was created. like you said apples and oranges they relate to different things depending on how you take it. Which by your own words, have left 1:15 all by it self.

Quote

You haven't proven that, so you shouldn't assert it.

Is the Word a Creature? to prove that Jesus is created needs to be proven by those who say that he is.

Quote

The Evidence again is what you ignored. 1:18 proves all my points that it means preeminence over grouping.
Jesus is not first from one group,
Jesus is first in all things.

Quote

Dennison, the Greek doesn't actually say “preeminent”, but instead indicates that in all things, Jesus is first. It is the Greek words “beginning” and “firstborn” that the KJV renders as “preeminence”. Here are some other translations:
Second, whether or not “firstborn of all creation” in 1:15 is literal, it doesn't change Paul's assertion that Jesus is “first in all things”. And 1:19 goes on to say that the reason Jesus is first in all things is because Jesus' God wanted it that way.

Thats my point, lets not take my lines brother.
I think this is in the strongs concordance

4409. próteuó

to have the first place
Original Word: πρωτεύω
Transliteration: próteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (prote-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: have preeminence

when i say Preeminence im using it in the same way as you are, meaning first place. I said that within my first post, maybe you didnt catch it.
Again It means that Jesus is first in everything and Paul proved his point by saying what he did and by what means and why it happend that way.
So that he may be first but it does not suggest to be procreation or that he was created.

Quote

I dont know Ask God why thats written, or if you can Call Paul for a meeting and ask him whats up. And if you reach him tell him hi for me. =)

Quote

Where is Jesus ever called the “Creator”? All things came FROM God, our Creator, THROUGH His Son.

Whatever that is made with hands is the creator of it.
An architect makes designs yet there are those contstruction workers who make it. Who is the creator?
Both? why? they need eachother to create.
Jesus is creator beacuse he created thats why.
How did Jesus create by the way? by using his hands? or by some kind of magic? or did God nailed the world togethor by using Jesus as a hammer?

Quote

None of the scriptures you quote deny the fact that Jesus was caused to exist by his God. And Jesus'
God has the “highest rank possible above creation”, not Jesus. Jesus comes in a close second though, because that's how his God willed it to be.

you have no proof of that.
For it pleased God that all fullness dwells in him.
Paul was very clear on that.
Just because YOU STATE that my qoutes dont deny the fact Jesus was caused to exist, is not proof to deny what i said is untrue.
Where does it say that Jesus is second when paul says all fullness dwells in him? that he has FIRST place, A NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES?(john)

Quote

If you notice mike, im trying to disprove something, and im not claiming anything.
If anything im the NEG your the AFF.
Im attacking your defending. as of right now, my motive is to disprove rather than proving,
its all those who believe in this, is the ones who need to prove.

Sorry if i sound heated.
Thank you for the compliments! its helps to know that taking your time to make a good point is well worth it!

Much love Mike,

(p.s. I made MANY other points and you only touched a few, usualy in debate the Judge persumes that the opponent agrees with the terms. So does this mean that you agree with the rest of my post, or you just felt like picking here and there? bc i know u hate long posts.)

September 14, 2010 at 1:36 am#216318

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2010,05:50)

Quote

Psalms 89:27 is about David, who is a type of Christ and there are some similarities but nothing exact.

Whoops i didnt notice that.
Thank you for the correction.
You know when you hear kings, you think of King of Kings.

anyways what i meant to say is that it pleased the Father for him to be first in all things.

Thanks i hope this helps.

September 14, 2010 at 2:26 am#216335

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 14 2010,12:34)

Hi Mike,
Im sorry its taking longer i had to take care of Ed J's nonsense.

Hi SF,

What's that suppose to mean? (Matt.7:1-2)
.

September 14, 2010 at 2:34 am#216337

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 14 2010,11:00)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2010,18:00)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 12 2010,19:52)

Christ was not Created

Hi SF,

Rev.3:14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;

Ed J,
you are compelelty misinterprting scripture.

ARe YOU saying that Christ is simply a Man?

Hi SF,

I cut out your ramblings, from your quote.

What does the combination of Eph.4:6 combined with Matt.1:18, Matt.1:20 and Luke 1:35 say to you?
Matt.1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused
to Joseph, before they came (consummated) together, she was found with child of the HolySpirit.
Matt.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto
him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife:
for that which is conceived in her is of the HolySpirit. (Son of the HolySpirit = Son of God)
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The HolySpirit shall come upon
thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that
holy thing(Jesus) which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Jesus lineage explained

“Son of Man”: 25%; Mary's mother's lineage was of the tribe of Levi. (Luke 1:5, 1:36)
“Son of Man”: 25%: Mary's father's lineage was (Judah) through Nathan(son of David). (Luke 3:23-31)
“Son of God”: 50%: Jesus' Father was the “HolySpirit”; NOT Joseph! (Mathew 1:18 / Mathew 1:20 / Luke 1:35)

Birth: Jesus was 50% HolySpirit(God)(Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35), 25% Levite(Priest) and 25% Judah(King)!
Baptism by John the baptizer, Jesus was filled with the HolySpirit(God) beyond measure! (John 3:34 / John 1:14)

Here is why Jesus is called both the “Son of Man” and the “Son of God”…

Mother Father
Mary HolySpirit
50% 50%
\ /
\ /
Jesus
/ \
/ \
/ \
Son of Man Son of God
(Mark 6:3) (Luke 1:35)

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

September 14, 2010 at 2:39 am#216339

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 14 2010,07:34)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 14 2010,11:00)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2010,18:00)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 12 2010,19:52)

Christ was not Created

Hi SF,

Rev.3:14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;

Ed J,
you are compelelty misinterprting scripture.

ARe YOU saying that Christ is simply a Man?

Hi SF,

I cut out your ramblings, from your quote.

Jesus lineage explained

Here is why Jesus is called both the “Son of Man” and the “Son of God”…

Mother Father
Mary HolySpirit
50% 50%
\ /
\ /
Jesus
/ \
/ \
/ \
Son of Man Son of God
(Mark 6:3) (Luke 1:35)

Ed J,
What you are saying has nothing to do with the thread.
If you understood what i was talking about,
like MIKE does, than you would have the ability to get my attention.

But you dont.

what you just said contradicted your points about rev3:14.

September 14, 2010 at 2:44 am#216340

Participant

How?

September 14, 2010 at 2:50 am#216341

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2010,11:50)

Psalms 89:27 is about David, who is a type of Christ and there are some similarities but nothing exact.

I also don't think 89:27 is about Christ, for he is not a King OF the earth. He didn't come FROM the earth and he is King over all heaven and earth, so I think this is about David only.

mike

September 14, 2010 at 3:26 am#216342

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2010,07:50)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2010,11:50)

Psalms 89:27 is about David, who is a type of Christ and there are some similarities but nothing exact.

I also don't think 89:27 is about Christ, for he is not a King OF the earth. He didn't come FROM the earth and he is King over all heaven and earth, so I think this is about David only.

mike

agreed.
sorry about that.

September 14, 2010 at 4:06 am#216343

Blocked

Hi Dennison,

SF:

Quote

Do you really agree with Ed J's that the hebrew Amen means that Jesus is “a Men” (lol) and his divine text of wikipedia that “All Men are created equal” from the Apostle Thomas Jefferson?

Does this even relate to the topic?
Im just asking sinced you gave him props.

I agree with the scriptures he quoted….I didn't even look at the link. I think people who worship Jesus worship an image…..something God was clear to point out that we shouldn't do. He said we never saw Him have a form, so don't worship ANYTHING with a form. Jesus had a form. I also agree that people who worship Jesus worship the creation, not the Creator.

SF:

Quote

He is Faithful and the True witness “of what??”
the beginning of the creation of God.

It doesn't say witness OF anything. He gives himself 3 titles here, the Amen, the Faithful and True witness, and the beginning of the creation of God. Jesus himself says he is the beginning of the creation by God, which matches perfectly with “firstborn of all creation” and “brought forth as the first of [God's] works” and “his origins are from ancient times”.

SF:

Quote

Both Verses does not present that this entitiy was created

Well, one says “brought forth” which is the Hebrew words for begotten. Remember? Yalad means “brought forth” in referrence to child birth. The other says his ORIGINS are from ancient times. Sounds like their describing a beginning to me.

SF:

Quote

So are you agreeing with me on this [firstborn] point?

I agree that it either refers to the one who was born first OR the one who received those firstborn rights OVER the one who was born first. Who did Jesus receive his “firstborn rights” OVER? Who was the REAL firstborn of all creation that had to relinquish his rights to Jesus? If there is none, then it means that Jesus was “the one who was born first”.

SF:

Quote

just because it says Firstborn, it does not mean that its talking about being the literal first born. It refers to the rights or the Inhertiance of the firstborn and that is proved by its context.

Correct. So if it is not either directly stated or clearly implied from the context that one received the firstborn rights that originally belonged to another, then “firstborn” simply means “the one who was born first”. It is neither directly stated nor clearly implied that Jesus was given these “firstborn rights” that originally belonged to another, so we have no choice but to take it as meaning Jesus was “the one who was born first”. Only people with personal agendas want to mess with “firstborn of all creation”. Trinitarians have to mess with it because their God #2 couldn't possibly have been born, could he? You fall somewhat into that category. Then we have Kathi, who knows Jesus had a beginning from his God, but doesn't like the word “created” in referrence to Jesus. Then there's JA, who thinks Satan was God's REAL firstborn, so therefore those words aren't literal in referrence to Jesus. Then there's those of us like me, who just take the scriptures at face value whether we can fully understand the “whys” and “hows” of them or not.

SF:

Quote

Is the Word a Creature? to prove that Jesus is created needs to be proven by those who say that he is.

I have proven it through scripture. “Firstborn of every creature”, “beginning of the creation of God”, “origins from ancient times”, “brought forth as the first of God's works”. If you don't want to believe, then that's up to you. If you want to change the meanings of what is very plainly stated to fit your own imagination, then I feel sorry for you.

SF:

Quote

Jesus is not first from one group,
Jesus is first in all things.

Jesus holds first place in many groups.”Created things” is just one of the groups he is a member of and holds first place in.

SF:

Quote

when i say Preeminence im using it in the same way as you are, meaning first place.

Preeminence mean the highest of the high, so even if Jesus IS God, he is NOT the Father, right? Therefore only one of your Gods can be preeminent over all creation. So if your “Jesus God” is preeminent, then your Father God is not……it's that simple. Preeminent doesn't mean “one of the highest” or “equally high with another”…..it means that one – and only one – is the highest.

SF:

Quote

I dont know Ask God why thats written, or if you can Call Paul for a meeting and ask him whats up. And if you reach him tell him hi for me. =)

But you admit it IS written, right? So either God and Paul were wrong or trying to confuse us…….OR….”firstborn of all creation” DOESN'T mean “preeminent over all creation”. Hmmmmm…….which one makes more logical sense Dennison?

SF:

Quote

Who is the creator?
Both? why? they need eachother to create.

But how do you reconcile that with God saying He ALONE created the heavens and the earth and everything in them? This was Jehovah who said this……will you now follow Kathi's lead and assert that Jesus is “Jehovah the Son” to make this scripture align with your doctrine?

SF:

Quote

Just because YOU STATE that my qoutes dont deny the fact Jesus was caused to exist, is not proof to deny what i said is untrue.

If you think any of your scriptures deny Jesus having a beginning, list them one by one with your explanation of how that particular scripture denies it.

SF:

Quote

Where does it say that Jesus is second when paul says all fullness dwells in him? that he has FIRST place, A NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES?(joh
n)

Every time the NT writers say something like, “Grace and peace to you from the Father AND GOD of Jesus Christ” there is an implication that God is first and Jesus is second. But I will look for a scripture that actually says it later. How can you think that Jesus isn't second to the One he says is “our God AND his God….the One he still calls “my God” and is a servant to? What part of any of this shouts “Equality”?

SF:

Quote

(p.s. I made MANY other points and you only touched a few,

Although your post was huge, I thought I hit everything. You know what I believe by now (I'm the one who believes scripture, remember?) , so if you think there's a good point you made in your post – or any post for that matter – that I overlooked, hit me with it again.

peace and love,
mike

September 14, 2010 at 4:08 am#216344