Charles Darwin

[Stu]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2010,22:20)

Reposted from another discussion in response to KJ's statement that some Christians believe in Evolution. God created life forms which reproduce “after their kind”. Obviously like any good programmer that requires robustness, each of these kinds would need a vast amount of genetic information to cater for a wide variety of environments in order to survive. This results in weeding out some genetic information for sure, and it also favours other information. Think of the large variety of dogs for example. They are found in the Arctic Circle to the deserts of Australia and come in all shapes and sizes which favour certain environments. This is natural selection or originally known as artificial selection. Before you go thinking that I am subscribing to the Theory of Evolution, I need to remind you that Edward Blyth (a creationist who was a year younger than Darwin), thought of the concept 25 years before Darwin’s 'Origin of Species' was published, although he never actually used the term “natural selection'. Blythe even recognised that Darwin had been feeding off him like an intellectual leech and Francis Hitching, an evolutionist, wrote: “Darwin took everything Blyth had said and used it to support an opposite conclusion”. Blyth regarded natural selection as a process that would remove defective traits, to maintain the health and archetype of species. In other words a design of God that helped species to survive and adapt, to stop them from becoming weaker. It has been speculated that Darwin removed much reference to Blythe in his notebook which has the cryptic reference “All useful pages cut out” so you can draw your own conclusion here, but he did say in 'Origin of Species', “Mr. Blyth, whose opinion, from his large and varied stores of knowledge, I should value more than that of almost any one, …”. Evolution doesn't own Natural Selection, but not all know that, and so some think they believe in Evolution, but they really believe in Natural Selection minus the Evolutionist's reason for it. Evolution goes way beyond Natural Selection in suggesting that species evolve into new species. Such as dinosaur species becoming bird species over time, or primitive apes becoming man. I might start up a discussion on Darwin's use of Blythe's ideas. Could be very educational.

You continue to carry on as if there is no such thing as the fossil record. You believe that life begets life, yet you also don't believe that.

Stuart

[mikeboll64]

Hi Stu,

Let me restate that I am not an expert in evolution.  And I don't claim to know the ways of God.  How could I?  That being said, let me try to answer your questions.

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You have not hurt me personally, but I think when creationists lie to children about natural history for dogmatic religious reasons, and Catholic priests tell little children that their little unsaved friends will go to hell if they do not repent (not to mention what else that obscene organisation has done to children), and Jews cut off a perfectly functioning part of their infant sons’ penises and have a Rabbi such that organ as well, then yes I think Judeo-christianity causes a great deal of hurt.  I could go on you know, but will spare you further accounts of Judeo-christian atrocities.

I think when parents teach their children about heaven and hell, they would do well to also teach them that we are not the judges of what happens to others in the future.  Kids can be cruel-what can I say?  Any PEOPLE that abuse other people are not exercising what Jesus taught, no matter what religion they say they are.  Circumcision is not a requirement of being a Christian.

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Quote   2.  What exactly do you do in your life that is above and beyond the commandment and Jesus' teaching. Well none of us actually know what Jesus really said (or if he even existed, with any confidence), so how could I answer that?

Jesus said to love you neighbor like you love yourself.  You implied that you live by “higher standards” than those.  How?  Give an example.

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Now your system of religious belief insists that the universe was specially made with you in mind, by an Imaginary Friend that listens simultaneously to you and every other one of the billions who bother it with requests to suspend the laws of physics specifically to their benefit.  It tells you that you are special and other people will be punished for not belonging to your club.  You stand to benefit personally from the supposed judicial execution of an ancient Palestinian.  If that is not egotistical to you then I’m not sure what would be.

How does that make Christians egotistical?  We humbly accept the there is one much higher than us who is in charge of us.

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Not sure what viruses have to do with it.  I think it would be possible to have an argument over whether other animal species have ethics or not, that would depend on definitions.  Certainly other species don’t appear to have traditions of moral philosophy, but they do display controls on behaviours.   Ethics are the genetically hard-wired and acquired cultural attitudes and behaviours that have played an important part in human survival and the continuation of the species.  The equivalent in other species is derived from the same origins.

You stated that life mutates.  Bodhitharta (I think) suggested that makes us sound like viruses.  I agree.  And that's not a very clear answer to why mankind is the only species on earth with ethics.  “genetically hardwired”?  How?  Why only humans?

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What do you think about the question about Moses and the Children of Israel?

I think we were created with an understanding of ethics.  We were, after all made in God's image.  Apparently, not to many people were subscribing to those ethics, so God wrote them down so there would be no oral miscommunication.  IMO

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Quote   5.  “Christianity demands you believe things despite no evidence”.  Are you for real?   Virgin birth, resurrection, walking on water.  Gullibility 3 – Evidence 0.

My point was not that I have “physical evidence” that the Bible's version is the correct one.  I don't need that, I have faith.  My point was: Where is YOUR evidence?  

Fish grows legs, then turns into a tree, then turns into a hummingbird.  Gullibility 3 – Evidence 0.  

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Quote   It takes more faith to believe that a one-celled organism first began by a lucky lightning strike and then expanded into every living thing on this planet due to “environmental stresses” than it does to believe there is a creator.   I don’t think that takes any faith to believe at all (apart from the lightning bit, that sounds like pop-nonsense).  On the other hand, a ‘creator’ for which there is no evidence explains nothing anyway.

Where is your evidence of HOW WE BEGAN?  I can believe that life evolves in that certain traits become more prominant in certain environments.  But how did it all START?  It seems we both have to rely on faith – mine in someone much greater than man, yours in man.

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Are you sure you were an atheist at some point?  Usually an atheist in a god-deluded world would have thought about these issues already.

 

I did.  But I was more inclined to think we were “planted” here by some superior alien culture.  Even when I thought God didn't exist, I couldn't get my head around the infinite impossibilities that the theory of evolution implies.

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Where is my ‘proof’ for what?  A mathematical theorem?

A theory is not a fact.

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Why WOULD it be ‘eat or be eaten’?

That's how it is with animals.  Only man has ethics and morals.

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So you are saying that your answer to ‘evil’ would be to arbitrarily smite people (even Uzzah, who was only trying to help) and to drown virtually everyone in the world? Why do you worship such a petulant monster?  Anyone else who admitted to the atrocities of the OT would end up in the International Court of Justice in the Hague, charged with genocide.

Jehovah is a God of exact justice.  Nobody in the Bible was ever punished in any way for following God's commandments.  Uzzah was unfortunate, and I would be lying if I said I didn't have the same thoughts as you about him at one time.  But God warned at the time of the original tabernacle that only high priests could enter the most holy or touch the ark, under penalty of death.  Exact justice – even if it seems harsh to us.  And who knows, maybe God has something special in mind for Uzzah and his family because he had to die as an example, even though it was an accident.

Two other points on Uzzah: This life is the temporary one.  I think Uzzah will be in the permanent one.  And don't forget what God told Job – no one on earth has a claim against Him that must be paid.

And Stu, I'm still praying for you.

Peace and love
mike

[Stu]

Mike

I wish you would tell others here that it is not possible to know the ways of god. For people who have a book that says exactly that, they seem able to say an awful lot about the ways of god!

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I think when parents teach their children about heaven and hell, they would do well to also teach them that we are not the judges of what happens to others in the future. Kids can be cruel-what can I say?

You could say “I am the adult in this situation”. You could remind yourself that you are indoctrinating children with things that cannot be shown to be true. You might care to say to them that it represents what YOU believe, but there is no evidence for the reality of any of it. You could say that your mythology teaches you that there is a place of punishment by fire, but that it is impossible to know whether it really exists or not.

Could you be that honest?

Kids certainly can be very cruel. Does that mean you are right to tell them that there is an Imaginary Friend in your head that is monitoring them 24 hours a day and will dig them up after they are dead and set them on fire for religious crimes?

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Any PEOPLE that abuse other people are not exercising what Jesus taught, no matter what religion they say they are.

You don’t know what Jesus taught. You only think you do.

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Circumcision is not a requirement of being a Christian.

If you wanted to be like Jesus…

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Jesus said to love you neighbor like you love yourself. You implied that you live by “higher standards” than those. How? Give an example.

Would you care to demonstrate that Jesus actually taught that before you judge me?

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How does that make Christians egotistical? We humbly accept the there is one much higher than us who is in charge of us.

I have never seen any christian accept that ‘humbly’! It is generally done with pride in membership of a special exclusive club.

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You stated that life mutates. Bodhitharta (I think) suggested that makes us sound like viruses. I agree.

Well do you understand in what ways we are NOT viruses? Viruses are not living organisms.

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And that's not a very clear answer to why mankind is the only species on earth with ethics. “genetically hardwired”? How? Why only humans?

Why is it me who has to come up with the clear answers? See the next point below:

Stu: What do you think about the question about Moses and the Children of Israel?

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I think we were created with an understanding of ethics. We were, after all made in God's image. Apparently, not to many people were subscribing to those ethics, so God wrote them down so there would be no oral miscommunication. IMO

You appear to be claiming that there was an ancestor species of humans that did not have ethics, and then suddenly he presto your god magically injects ethics. Which species do you think it was? Be clear in your answer now!!

Stu: Virgin birth, resurrection, walking on water. Gullibility 3 – Evidence 0.

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My point was not that I have “physical evidence” that the Bible's version is the correct one. I don't need that, I have faith. My point was: Where is YOUR evidence?

OK. I’ll follow you as you move the goal posts around the field, in the finest christian tradition. For what are you asking for evidence?

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Fish grows legs, then turns into a tree, then turns into a hummingbird. Gullibility 3 – Evidence 0.

I would agree. If you believe that then you are gullible.

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Where is your evidence of HOW WE BEGAN? I can believe that life evolves in that certain traits become more prominant in certain environments. But how did it all START? It seems we both have to rely on faith – mine in someone much greater than man, yours in man.

I don’t know how life began. No one does. There is some pretty good scientific speculation, with very plausible models of chemical reactions happening in spontaneously-forming micelles that are very similar chemically to modern living cells, but it will only ever be speculation. There is no faith needed to say “we don’t know with any confidence”.

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I did. But I was more inclined to think we were “planted” here by some superior alien culture. Even when I thought God didn't exist, I couldn't get my head around the infinite impossibilities that the theory of evolution implies.

So, because you couldn’t understand something, you decided to adopt an Imaginary Friend as a substitute for having an answer?

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A theory is not a fact.

A theory is an explanation for the facts. The theory of natural selection is the only explanation we have for the fact of evolution that is obviously evident in the fossil record. A fact is something that it would be perverse to deny. It is perverse to deny the fossil record.

Stu: Why WOULD it be ‘eat or be eaten’?

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That's how it is with animals. Only man has ethics and morals.

That is obviousl
y NOT how it is with animals. Certainly animals must eat, but that is the minority aspect of the interaction between different species, and especially between members of the same species.

You can assert that only man has ethics, but I have already explained that it is more sophisticated than that.

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Jehovah is a God of exact justice. Nobody in the Bible was ever punished in any way for following God's commandments. Uzzah was unfortunate, and I would be lying if I said I didn't have the same thoughts as you about him at one time. But God warned at the time of the original tabernacle that only high priests could enter the most holy or touch the ark, under penalty of death. Exact justice – even if it seems harsh to us. And who knows, maybe God has something special in mind for Uzzah and his family because he had to die as an example, even though it was an accident.

Maybe it is all fantasy nonsense, too. It is not justice that makes any sense to OUR ethics. From your point of view, maybe the ethics we have been given are not the same as those of your god. It would certainly appear that way when in some translations of the commandments you are told not to “kill”, and yet here is the teller boasting about killing perhaps as many as 32,000,000 people.

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Two other points on Uzzah: This life is the temporary one. I think Uzzah will be in the permanent one. And don't forget what God told Job – no one on earth has a claim against Him that must be paid.

So for breaking a commandment the punishment is death and the reward is eternal life. That makes no sense at all.

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And Stu, I'm still praying for you.

It’s having no measurable effect, as I suggested would happen. Actually the more you post of your illogical mythology, the more you confirm my provisional conclusions that it is a complete waste of time.

Take care
Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 21 2010,11:13)

Mike It tells you that you are special and other people will be punished for not belonging to your club. Take care Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Could you PLEASE answer this question for me?
Don't answer it like a response to a villainous cartoon character either.
You answered it that way once already. No preconceived bigotry necessary.

If all the special people that belonged to my club got special privileges,
but the ones that refused to join were denied the same special privileges.
Would you consider those that were denied the special privileges Punished ?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 20 2010,22:42)

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2010,22:20) Reposted from another discussion in response to KJ's statement that some Christians believe in Evolution. God created life forms which reproduce “after their kind”. Obviously like any good programmer that requires robustness, each of these kinds would need a vast amount of genetic information to cater for a wide variety of environments in order to survive. This results in weeding out some genetic information for sure, and it also favours other information. Think of the large variety of dogs for example. They are found in the Arctic Circle to the deserts of Australia and come in all shapes and sizes which favour certain environments. This is natural selection or originally known as artificial selection. Before you go thinking that I am subscribing to the Theory of Evolution, I need to remind you that Edward Blyth (a creationist who was a year younger than Darwin), thought of the concept 25 years before Darwin’s 'Origin of Species' was published, although he never actually used the term “natural selection'. Blythe even recognised that Darwin had been feeding off him like an intellectual leech and Francis Hitching, an evolutionist, wrote: “Darwin took everything Blyth had said and used it to support an opposite conclusion”. Blyth regarded natural selection as a process that would remove defective traits, to maintain the health and archetype of species. In other words a design of God that helped species to survive and adapt, to stop them from becoming weaker. It has been speculated that Darwin removed much reference to Blythe in his notebook which has the cryptic reference “All useful pages cut out” so you can draw your own conclusion here, but he did say in 'Origin of Species', “Mr. Blyth, whose opinion, from his large and varied stores of knowledge, I should value more than that of almost any one, …”. Evolution doesn't own Natural Selection, but not all know that, and so some think they believe in Evolution, but they really believe in Natural Selection minus the Evolutionist's reason for it. Evolution goes way beyond Natural Selection in suggesting that species evolve into new species. Such as dinosaur species becoming bird species over time, or primitive apes becoming man. I might start up a discussion on Darwin's use of Blythe's ideas. Could be very educational. You continue to carry on as if there is no such thing as the fossil record.  You believe that life begets life, yet you also don't believe that. Stuart

What are you on about now?

The fossil record shows that there are life forms that are now extinct. You don't need a fossil record to see that species are similar or have similar design. You can see that in living species today. If you want to believe that they are connected in that the are derived as believed in the Theory of Evolution, then you are entitled to your belief. But you are not entitled to force the world to believe your religion just as I am not.

[Stu]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 21 2010,16:13)

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 20 2010,22:42) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2010,22:20) Reposted from another discussion in response to KJ's statement that some Christians believe in Evolution. God created life forms which reproduce “after their kind”. Obviously like any good programmer that requires robustness, each of these kinds would need a vast amount of genetic information to cater for a wide variety of environments in order to survive. This results in weeding out some genetic information for sure, and it also favours other information. Think of the large variety of dogs for example. They are found in the Arctic Circle to the deserts of Australia and come in all shapes and sizes which favour certain environments. This is natural selection or originally known as artificial selection. Before you go thinking that I am subscribing to the Theory of Evolution, I need to remind you that Edward Blyth (a creationist who was a year younger than Darwin), thought of the concept 25 years before Darwin’s 'Origin of Species' was published, although he never actually used the term “natural selection'. Blythe even recognised that Darwin had been feeding off him like an intellectual leech and Francis Hitching, an evolutionist, wrote: “Darwin took everything Blyth had said and used it to support an opposite conclusion”. Blyth regarded natural selection as a process that would remove defective traits, to maintain the health and archetype of species. In other words a design of God that helped species to survive and adapt, to stop them from becoming weaker. It has been speculated that Darwin removed much reference to Blythe in his notebook which has the cryptic reference “All useful pages cut out” so you can draw your own conclusion here, but he did say in 'Origin of Species', “Mr. Blyth, whose opinion, from his large and varied stores of knowledge, I should value more than that of almost any one, …”. Evolution doesn't own Natural Selection, but not all know that, and so some think they believe in Evolution, but they really believe in Natural Selection minus the Evolutionist's reason for it. Evolution goes way beyond Natural Selection in suggesting that species evolve into new species. Such as dinosaur species becoming bird species over time, or primitive apes becoming man. I might start up a discussion on Darwin's use of Blythe's ideas. Could be very educational. You continue to carry on as if there is no such thing as the fossil record.  You believe that life begets life, yet you also don't believe that. Stuart What are you on about now? The fossil record shows that there are life forms that are now extinct. You don't need a fossil record to see that species are similar or have similar design. You can see that in living species today. If you want to believe that they are connected in that the are derived as believed in the Theory of Evolution, then you are entitled to your belief. But you are not entitled to force the world to believe your religion just as I am not.

Do you believe that life begets life?

The fossil record does not consist of species that are similar, it is of many very different species. Pretty much the only thing in common across the species is that DNA codes for proteins that do the rest of the job of building and maintaining a living organism.

There are fossils from a very long time ago of animals that look nothing like anything alive today. There are no fossils from 50 million years ago (which is relatively recently on the geological timescale) that look anything like modern humans. There has been a vast change in the appearance of living things over that time.

How do you explain the appearance of these new animals in the fossil record?

Does life beget life or not?

Stuart

[mikeboll64]

Hi Stu,

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You don’t know what Jesus taught.  You only think you do.

I have first hand accounts to go by.  Again, how is it you live by higher standards? And for the record, I'm not a judge of anyone, you're the one who spouted off about your standards.

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I have never seen any christian accept that ‘humbly’!  It is generally done with pride in membership of a special exclusive club.

Acknowledged.  But now were talking about religious clubs called churches, of which I am not a member.

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Viruses are not living organisms.

I did not know that.  Like I said, I was going off what someone else said.  My mistake – sorry.

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Stu:  What do you think about the question about Moses and the Children of Israel? Quote   I think we were created with an understanding of ethics.  We were, after all made in God's image.  Apparently, not to many people were subscribing to those ethics, so God wrote them down so there would be no oral miscommunication.  IMO

Asked and answered.

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You appear to be claiming that there was an ancestor species of humans that did not have ethics, and then suddenly he presto your god magically injects ethics.  Which species do you think it was?  Be clear in your answer now!!

This is a very interesting point for me.  Genesis says that after Cain murdered Abel, God sent him out into the wilderness.  Cain was worried he would be killed by “others”, so God put a mark on him to warn “everybody” not to kill him.  The problem I have with this is Cain and Abel were the first children -who are the “others” Cain was afraid of?  COULD God have already created at least one sub-man humanoid species?  COULD there have been “cave men” already running around?  Then later God created Adam, the first “man” who had modern human intellect and ethics?  Everyone thinks I'm rewriting the Bible when I suggest this.

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I don’t know how life began.  No one does.

 
Then why are you so certain we were not created?

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So, because you couldn’t understand something, you decided to adopt an Imaginary Friend as a substitute for having an answer?

No Stu.  I already told you: Because I was desparate and cried out for help and received it.

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It is not justice that makes any sense to OUR ethics.

The Scriptures say, “Lean not on your own understanding, but trust in Jehovah with all your heart.” (Incidentally, when I received my help from God, I opened a Bible my sister had given me years before and said to myself, “Okay God, let me know this is for real.”  I closed my eyes, opened the Bible and placed my finger on a verse.  I opened my eyes to read the verse I just quoted in Proverbs.)

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So for breaking a commandment the punishment is death and the reward is eternal life.  That makes no sense at all.

Only to someone who thinks this life is all there is.  And once again, God's words to Job, “Who has a claim against me that I must pay?  Everything under heaven belongs to me!”
That means the air you breathe and every last beat of your heart, Stu.

I pray that Jehovah God sends you peace and knowledge.  I pray it in His son Jesus' name.  Amen.

peace and love,
mike

[Stu]

Mike

Stu: You don’t know what Jesus taught. You only think you do.

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I have first hand accounts to go by.

Can you name the writer who saw Jesus and wrote about the experience?

Stu: You appear to be claiming that there was an ancestor species of humans that did not have ethics, and then suddenly he presto your god magically injects ethics. Which species do you think it was? Be clear in your answer now!!

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This is a very interesting point for me. Genesis says that after Cain murdered Abel, God sent him out into the wilderness. Cain was worried he would be killed by “others”, so God put a mark on him to warn “everybody” not to kill him. The problem I have with this is Cain and Abel were the first children -who are the “others” Cain was afraid of? COULD God have already created at least one sub-man humanoid species? COULD there have been “cave men” already running around? Then later God created Adam, the first “man” who had modern human intellect and ethics? Everyone thinks I'm rewriting the Bible when I suggest this.

Well of course you have just identified the inconsistencies between bronze-age mythology and a modern scientific view. My advice would be to go with modern science.

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Then why are you so certain we were not created?

I am not certain at all. However chemistry is real and observable, and micelles which look very like modern cell membranes with a bilipid layer form spontaneously when you agitate a solution of fatty acids. On the other hand, what do you mean by the word ‘created’?

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The Scriptures say, “Lean not on your own understanding, but trust in Jehovah with all your heart.” (Incidentally, when I received my help from God, I opened a Bible my sister had given me years before and said to myself, “Okay God, let me know this is for real.” I closed my eyes, opened the Bible and placed my finger on a verse. I opened my eyes to read the verse I just quoted in Proverbs.)

And have you looked through your book of bronze-age mythology and counted the phrases that you would have been amazed to read in this situation? I bet there is one on every page. Had you turned to a page that did not have something concrete like that, you would be interpreting something irrelevant in terms of metaphor anyway. Let’s say you stumbled across Ps14:1, then you would have been saying ‘what an amazing sign: I have been one of those who is called fool: how true that must have been’, or perhaps if it had been 1 Cor 13, you would have said ‘that’s it, of course: I have been so uncharitable with regards to this god, I must have sounded like a tinkling cymbal’.

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God's words to Job, “Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me!” That means the air you breathe and every last beat of your heart, Stu.

That is one of the most fatuous nonsense religious platitudes that I think anyone has posted here.

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I pray that Jehovah God sends you peace and knowledge.

Why?

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I pray it in His son Jesus' name. Amen.

Sorry you are too late. At least twice I have denied Jesus, which is unforgivable. I am already hellbound and there is nothing either of us can do about it. What a pathetically weak religion you adhere to. Fortunately for both of us, none of it is real.

Stuart

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 21 2010,16:37)

Do you believe that life begets life? The fossil record does not consist of species that are similar, it is of many very different species.  Pretty much the only thing in common across the species is that DNA codes for proteins that do the rest of the job of building and maintaining a living organism. There are fossils from a very long time ago of animals that look nothing like anything alive today.  There are no fossils from 50 million years ago (which is relatively recently on the geological timescale) that look anything like modern humans.  There has been a vast change in the appearance of living things over that time.   How do you explain the appearance of these new animals in the fossil record? Does life beget life or not? Stuart

Stu, there have been many aeons.

We are in one aeon.

The fossil record could suggest that these creatures were of previous aeons or eras, which I tend to agree with. When Jesus preached the end of the world, he was saying the end of this aeon, not planet Earth.

However one aeon ends and another starts is up for debate. This aeon will end with much destruction. Natural, man-made, or both is up for debate. Previous aeons came to an end by whatever means that God determined and whether certain fossils are of another aeon or another era is up for debate too.

Just as we have seasons in the year, there are seasons of much greater lengths of time.

And yes life begets life. Whether that is the living God creating a completely new prototype or the result of reproduction, it is life that begats life.

[Stu]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 22 2010,18:51)

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 21 2010,16:37) Do you believe that life begets life? The fossil record does not consist of species that are similar, it is of many very different species.  Pretty much the only thing in common across the species is that DNA codes for proteins that do the rest of the job of building and maintaining a living organism. There are fossils from a very long time ago of animals that look nothing like anything alive today.  There are no fossils from 50 million years ago (which is relatively recently on the geological timescale) that look anything like modern humans.  There has been a vast change in the appearance of living things over that time.   How do you explain the appearance of these new animals in the fossil record? Does life beget life or not? Stuart Stu, there have been many aeons. We are in one aeon. The fossil record could suggest that these creatures were of previous aeons or eras, which I tend to agree with. When Jesus preached the end of the world, he was saying the end of this aeon, not planet Earth. However one aeon ends and another starts is up for debate. This aeon will end with much destruction. Natural, man-made, or both is up for debate. Previous aeons came to an end by whatever means that God determined and whether certain fossils are of another aeon or another era is up for debate too. Just as we have seasons in the year, there are seasons of much greater lengths of time. And yes life begets life. Whether that is the living God creating a completely new prototype or the result of reproduction, it is life that begats life.

You seem to be claiming that there is one set of living things for a certain period of time, then a sudden switch to a new set of species that remain static for the next period of time, and so on.

Firstly, that view is contrary to what is found in the fossil record; there are examples of species that alternate bouts of change with periods of relative stasis, but the fossils of different species do not coincide in their periods of change.

Secondly, and it is of little concern to me, but how do you square this view with Genesis 2, in which the creation comes to a distinct finish point?

How is god creating new prototypes (you still have not answered the question of whether you would predict that with a common creator the same biological job would be done in the same way) an example of life begeting life? This is divine fiat begetting life: the model is in Genesis where the voice and breath of god and dirt and ribs are the materials used to make humans. I thought begeting might have been more likely to involve sperm and egg cells, in the conventional way.

I suppose with god any old fantasy story is acceptable.

Stuart

[mikeboll64]

Stu,Feb. wrote:

[/quote]
Hi Stu,

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Can you name the writer who saw Jesus and wrote about the experience?

Matthew, John, and Peter.  And, for the third time, how do live by higher standards?

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Quote   Then why are you so certain we were not created?   I am not certain at all.

Then why do you insist that it couldn't have happened as the Bible says it did?

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Quote   God's words to Job, “Who has a claim against me that I must pay?  Everything under heaven belongs to me!”  That means the air you breathe and every last beat of your heart, Stu. That is one of the most fatuous nonsense religious platitudes that I think anyone has posted here.

Nonsense to you, truth to me.  Whose right?  And by what proof?   The fact is that you can't prove at all that the Bible is wrong.  And you never will.

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At least twice I have denied Jesus, which is unforgivable.

Unforgivable?  How do you come to that conclusion?  Nevermind.  I'll leave you alone to discuss your technical stuff with t8 and the others who find it interesting.

I'll keep praying, Stu.  

peace and love
mike

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At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

[Stu]

Mike

Stu: Can you name the writer who saw Jesus and wrote about the experience?

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Matthew, John, and Peter. And, for the third time, how do live by higher standards?

I still don’t know what you are talking about when you say the “teachings of Jesus”. How can I compare myself to something that you cannot show is real? If it is the Matthew, John and Peter I think you are suggesting, then who were they? The gospels are anonymous so we don’t know whose accounts those are, and are you suggesting that Peter wrote an eyewitness account of Jesus?

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Then why do you insist that it couldn't have happened as the Bible says it did?

I don’t. But if I am to accept your version then I am to also accept all the other creation myths on the same evidence. Evidence will have to be the arbiter. I say that based on the evidence it is extremely unlikely that the world appeared from a large bird’s egg. What does the evidence tell you?

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Nonsense to you, truth to me. Whose right? And by what proof? The fact is that you can't prove at all that the Bible is wrong. And you never will.

It is not possible to prove a negative, but it is reasonable to conclude that the noachian flood never happened, the exodus never happened and the virgin birth of Jesus and his alleged resurrection are false claims.

Unless you have special evidence for these special claims? Remember you are the one who needs to demonstrate the veracity of what you claim. It is not up to me to disprove every little fantasy that pops into your head, or the heads of religio-political figures of the past.

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At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

More nonsense platitudes.

Take care
Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 24 2010,20:41)

Mike Stu: Can you name the writer who saw Jesus and wrote about the experience? Quote Matthew, John, and Peter.  And, for the third time, how do live by higher standards? I still don’t know what you are talking about when you say the “teachings of Jesus”.  How can I compare myself to something that you cannot show is real?  If it is the Matthew, John and Peter I think you are suggesting, then who were they?  The gospels are anonymous so we don’t know whose accounts those are, and are you suggesting that Peter wrote an eyewitness account of Jesus? Quote Then why do you insist that it couldn't have happened as the Bible says it did? I don’t.  But if I am to accept your version then I am to also accept all the other creation myths on the same evidence.  Evidence will have to be the arbiter.  I say that based on the evidence it is extremely unlikely that the world appeared from a large bird’s egg.  What does the evidence tell you? Quote Nonsense to you, truth to me.  Whose right?  And by what proof?   The fact is that you can't prove at all that the Bible is wrong.  And you never will. It is not possible to prove a negative, but it is reasonable to conclude that the noachian flood never happened, the exodus never happened and the virgin birth of Jesus and his alleged resurrection are false claims. Unless you have special evidence for these special claims?  Remember you are the one who needs to demonstrate the veracity of what you claim.  It is not up to me to disprove every little fantasy that pops into your head, or the heads of religio-political figures of the past. Quote At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. More nonsense platitudes.   Take care Stuart

Are you still rejecting the Virgin Birth after I proved to you it happened?

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 26 2010,06:29)

Are you still rejecting the Virgin Birth after I proved to you it happened?

Are you still posting inane questions even though I have shown everyone what a troll you appear to be on websites everywhere?

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 26 2010,13:25)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 26 2010,06:29) Are you still rejecting the Virgin Birth after I proved to you it happened? Are you still posting inane questions even though I have shown everyone what a troll you appear to be on websites everywhere? Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Could you please answer this question…

Would you consider those that were denied special privileges as a Punishment?

Ed J

[Stu]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 27 2010,11:48)

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 26 2010,13:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 26 2010,06:29) Are you still rejecting the Virgin Birth after I proved to you it happened? Are you still posting inane questions even though I have shown everyone what a troll you appear to be on websites everywhere? Stuart Hi Stuart, Could you please answer this question… Would you consider those that were denied special privileges as a Punishment? Ed J

Sorry Ed I'd forgotten the context now.

Who are we talking about?

Tell me the number the word equals. That might help.

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 20 2010,20:37)

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 20 2010,16:21) Hi Mike. It tells you that you are special and other people will be punished for not belonging to your club. Stuart Hi Stuart, If all the special people that belonged to my club got special privileges, but the ones that refused to join were denied the same special privileges. Would you consider those that were denied the special privileges Punished? This is a legitimate question, one that I sincerely hope you will answer seriously. God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Stuart,

Here.

[Stu]

Right. Well there are no special privileges, are there? So the question is a bit irrelevant.

Eternal life would be a punishment in itself, an existence that did not have a final death to bring it meaning.

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 27 2010,20:46)

Sorry Ed I'd forgotten the context now.   Who are we talking about? Tell me the number the word equals.  That might help. Stuart

HI Stuart,

Matt.7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock,
and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth;
and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

[λογος=373] Lōgôs This is the Greek word for “Word”, and 373 is the 74th prime number.
Gematria=74: Jesus=74, Messiah=74, cross=74, and in English=74 Joshua=74

[ο λογος=443] Hō Lōgôs is Greek for “The Word”,
and 443 is the 86th prime equal to אלהים]=86] ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63

God Word=86 and YHVH=63.

Now here's the kicker…

In the “Theomatic(numbers in Scripture) principal,” Washburn says there is a clustering aspect
relating numbers that miss by only one’ or two” numbers as a clustering hit.
Theomatically speaking, a clustering hit would carry the same meaning
like a direct match would. For example, 443` is a clustering hit with 444.

JEHOVAH: is used Exactly “FOUR” times in the singular in the AKJV Bible…

[λογος=373] Lōgôs This is the Greek word for “Word”,
and 373 is the 74th prime number. 373 x 4=1492,
this is the year the Americas were discovered.

[ο λογος=443] Hō Lōgôs is Greek for “The Word”, and 443 is the 86th prime
equal to [אלהים]=86  ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63; and 444 x 4=1776 the year of U.S.A.

July 4 is 7_4 or equal to G_d. Under God we stand!

Does this help?
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Stu]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Stuart

[Author]

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