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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2011,21:06) No Keith. Jehovah is the God of gods.
Really, so the “gods” are [OF] God?Is satan of God? Is God satans God, or has he chosen to be an enemy of God?
No Mike it is more like he is the God over the gods, that are not gods at all but rather judges, rulers, idols, or leaders, depending on context.
Remember Paul said there are “no gods” but one.
Gods are either false idols or have supernatural powers and are worshipped and bowed down to and followed as their God.
None of the gods have supernatural powers but are gods by proxy.
Jesus at this time acts on his own. Wake up man!
Shut the rhetoric Mike and give me some examples in the Bible where the children of Israel or followers of Christ or any of the Forefathers called anyone or any being “Their god” but YHVH and Jesus.
WJ
Here is some information about the divinity of Christ in relation to “false gods”…
The greatest and self-standing proof of Christ's divinity is His resurrection from the dead, and yet, on that very day, Our Blessed Lord took time to explain to two of His disciples on the road to Emmaus the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures: “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures, the things that were concerning Him” (Lk. 24, 27).
Radical traditionalists have repeatedly attacked the Holy Father and his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, for entering synagogues, even though the Apostles often went into synagogues: “And Paul, according to his custom, went in (to the Synagogue) unto them” (Acts 17, 2). “Paul and they that were with him . . . came to Antioch in Pisidia: and entering into the synagogue on the sabbath day, they sat down. And after the reading of the law and the prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying: Ye men, brethren, if you have any word of exhortation to make to the people, speak” (Acts 13, 13-12; 17, 1-2;17, 10-11 ).
Our Blessed Lord gave detailed instructions regarding how His disciples were to evangelize, telling them what they should do and what they should not do (cf: Mt. 10; Mk. 6; Lk. 9; 10). The Lord, however, did not forbid them to enter into synagogues, and, in fact, foretold that they would enter them: “They will put you out of the synagogues” (Jn. 16, 2).
Those who hold that the Jews don't have the true God, try to put “the triune God” in opposition to Monotheism. It is however a misunderstanding of the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity, which is “one God in three Persons”, as we know from the Nicene Creed, the first article of which is: “I believe in one God”. Even with inspired divinely revealed knowledge of the Trinity, the Apostles continue to talk of “the one God”. Monotheism remains true for Christians. The three Persons in one God is a completion of God's revelation which in no way negates the prior revelation. Besides being a Scriptural and theological error, the accusation of idolatry on the part of the Jews, is a logical error as well, namely, that the more defined somehow contradicts the less defined. On the contrary, the revelation of the Trinity in no way changes the logically precedent truth of the one God. That there would have to be a God Creator of the visible universe, and that there could only be one God are philosophical truths that can be arrived at by reason. That the one God, in the singularity of His nature and essence, can exist in three distinct Persons, is a mystery revealed by Christ. The idea that failure to believe this trinitarian mystery means that that one God, before justly worshiped, must now be a different god, is a logical fallacy. Source
Enjoy!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 14 2011,13:58)
Is satan of God? Is God satans God, or has he chosen to be an enemy of God?
Everyone has the same God, Keith……….even Satan and Jesus. Not everyone realizes this though.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 14 2011,13:58)
No Mike it is more like he is the God over the gods, that are not gods at all but rather judges, rulers, idols, or leaders, depending on context.
Keith, did the Hebrews use only ONE WORD? Did the Greeks?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 14 2011,13:58)
Remember Paul said there are “no gods” but one.
Let's try it with the “universal word”:4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no Ruler but one.” 5 For there are those who are called rulers, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many rulers and many masters), 6 yet for us there is but one Ruler, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Master, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Can you now see the point Paul was making? It was NOT that there weren't any other rulers period. It was that ALTHOUGH there ARE other rulers, both in heaven and on earth, for us there is but ONE Ruler – THE FATHER, and one master, Jesus Christ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 14 2011,13:58)
Shut the rhetoric Mike and give me some examples in the Bible where the children of Israel or followers of Christ or any of the Forefathers called anyone or any being “Their god” but YHVH and Jesus.
How about I show you where even Jesus has someone he calls “my God”? He says it is the same God that we have.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 14 2011,22:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 14 2011,13:58)
Is satan of God? Is God satans God, or has he chosen to be an enemy of God?
Everyone has the same God, Keith……….even Satan and Jesus. Not everyone realizes this though.
MikeThat is what is taught in “New Age” propaganda, in fact now you are agreeing with BD and saying that “Alla” is “the same God” as Jehovah since he claims his God is all powerful.
If everyone has the same God then why did Jesus call certain Jews “children of the devil”? Are they children of God and children of the devil at the same time?
If God is their God then how can satan be the “god of this world”?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 14 2011,22:37)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 14 2011,13:58)
No Mike it is more like he is the God over the gods, that are not gods at all but rather judges, rulers, idols, or leaders, depending on context.
Keith, did the Hebrews use only ONE WORD? Did the Greeks?
Yes, it depends on context how it is to be understood or translated just like many words in many languages like the words “light”, “foot”, “fire”, or “pound” which can all have different meanings depending on its use and the context.Why do you deny this basic grammar principle that words can have different meanings and should be understood by the way it is used in its context?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 14 2011,22:37)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 14 2011,13:58)
Remember Paul said there are “no gods” but one.
Let's try it with the “universal word”:4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no Ruler but one.” 5 For there are those who are called rulers, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many rulers and many masters), 6 yet for us there is but one Ruler, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Master, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Can you now see the point Paul was making? It was NOT that there weren't any other rulers period. It was that ALTHOUGH there ARE other rulers, both in heaven and on earth, for us there is but ONE Ruler – THE FATHER, and one master, Jesus Christ.
Nice try but once again your logic works against you.Remember the Greek has “no caps” so to be honest it should be read…
4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no ruler but one.” 5 For there are those who are called rulers, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many rulers and many masters), 6 yet for us there is but one ruler, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one master, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Now when you can prove to me that “ONLY” Jesus is THE one (The Greek is “heis” which means “one”) master” then you cannot claim that Paul’s meaning is that only the Father is “Ruler” or God can you?
So you see Mike when Paul says “There is no ruler but one”, without the caps he is clearly saying that both the Father and Jesus are both “ruler” and “master” while as he says others are called “rulers” by those who do not call the Father and Jesus both “ruler” and “master”.
The anti-Trinitarian interpretation of the text falls apart because of the fact that Paul says Jesus is our “one” (heis) lord, or master and we know that also does not exclude the Father.
It is obvious the language of the verse makes Jesus equal to the Father.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 14 2011,22:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 14 2011,13:58)
Shut the rhetoric Mike and give me some examples in the Bible where the children of Israel or followers of Christ or any of the Forefathers called anyone or any being “Their god” but YHVH and Jesus.
How about I show you where even Jesus has someone he calls “my God”? He says it is the same God that we have.
Straw man because the scriptures tell us Jesus before time was with the Father as God and came in the likeness of sinful flesh and now is also the “Son of man” meaning he is a man yet he also is the “Only Begotten Son of God” which means he is God.Shut the rhetoric Mike and give me some examples in the Bible where the children of Israel or followers of Christ or any of the Forefathers called anyone or any being “Their god” but YHVH and Jesus.
WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,14:34)
If everyone has the same God then why did Jesus call certain Jews “children of the devil”? Are they children of God and children of the devil at the same time?
Are we really discussing this? Is there another God who created some of the people on earth?
Of course everyone has the same God, Jehovah. They just don't all realize that, and therefore worship their own made up gods like the Canaanites did.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,14:34)
If God is their God then how can satan be the “god of this world”?
Well there you have it. Jehovah is the God OF Satan, for He created him and is the God of everyone everywhere. But Satan can be called the “god of this world” for one reason…………are you ready?…………because “theos” doesn't always mean God Almighty. There ARE other gods in scripture as you well know. That's why Thomas can call Jesus “my god” without meaning he is Jehovah God Almighty.Keith, there would be no need for the term “God Almighty” in the first place if there weren't other gods.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,14:34)
Why do you deny this basic grammar principle that words can have different meanings and should be understood by the way it is used in its context?
The difference is that “elohim” is like our word “ruler”. If you're not talking about a 12 inch piece of wood, then “ruler” has the same basic definition all around. A judge is a RULER of a courtroom. A king is a RULER of a country. Jesus is a RULER of the other kings and lords. God is the Ruler of Jesus and all those who are also under Jesus.What I resent is not that the translators sometimes render it as “judge”, but that they presume to tell US when it needs a capital “G” and when it doesn't. They cap the “G” for Jesus, when Jesus is but a vice regent OF God.
Besides Keith, don't you know that the Hebrew Judges weren't judges like we understand the word today? They were military leaders who RULED the nation………..therefore, a RULER – just like elohim means.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,14:34)
Now when you can prove to me that “ONLY” Jesus is THE one (The Greek is “heis” which means “one”) master” then you cannot claim that Paul’s meaning is that only the Father is “Ruler” or God can you?
Are you kidding me? You think “master” is an equal title to ruler? The nation of Israel had many masters of many slaves. But they only had ONE flesh ruler, right?Paul is saying that of our many masters, (which we've already discussed) Jesus is our MAIN master, over and above all the others we might have. And out of the many heavenly and earthly rulers we might have, God is the MAIN ruler, over and above all the others we might have.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,14:34)
It is obvious the language of the verse makes Jesus equal to the Father.
Yes Keith, only if master is equal to ruler, and if all the scriptures that teach us Jesus has a ruler of his own would just disappear.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,14:34)
Straw man because the scriptures tell us Jesus before time was with the Father as God and came in the likeness of sinful flesh and now is also the “Son of man” meaning he is a man yet he also is the “Only Begotten Son of God” which means he is God.
He's a MAN! NO, he's God! NO, he's the Son OF God!Keith, that is one of the most assinine statements I've ever read. Show me how the BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD is God Himself.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,14:34)
Shut the rhetoric Mike and give me some examples in the Bible where the children of Israel or followers of Christ or any of the Forefathers called anyone or any being “Their god” but YHVH and Jesus.
Keith, there aren't any………..what's your point? What if the scriptures quoted Solomon worshipping one of his later gods? Would that change anything? The fact is that MANY of the Sons of Israel called others “my god” and “their god”. Their worshipping practices just aren't recorded with direct quotes of them praising their gods.And only ONE disciple ever called Jesus “my god” Keith. That's it. And that word meant the same about Jesus as being called god meant about Satan. That he was a ruler – nothing more.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,09:28) You know t8 you call me dishonest but you yourself cannot prove your theory can you?
Before you make yourself look any more silly, please read about how the definite article works in the biblical languages.That information is freely available to anyone who wishes to find out.
Ha ha, I mean, my theory? Language construction is not a theory.
If it is above your level of intellect to understand the definite article and lack of it, then at least learn about it in your own language.
Try to determine the difference between the next 2 sentences.
1) Eve was man (mankind).
2) Eve was THE man.See how THE changes the meaning?
If not, then don't bother me till you can see it. Then we can take the next step together.
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