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Hi All
OK So Mike has changed his story so lets see what that means…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2011,14:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2011,04:32) When Jesus is referred to as “elohim” or “theos” does it absolutely and positively mean he is “NOT” God Almighty?
I BELIEVE I SAID: “NO!So what has Mike proved? Mike also has made these statements…
NOW HERE IS THE ADJUSTED PART…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2011,17:00) And I don't know of a scripture that calls Jesus “A true god“, but I agree that he is. And…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth. Does anyone see the difference in these two statements?
Do you see the words “The god”? So if he is “The god” of all in heaven right now then is he not “The True God”. What is the difference in the 2 statements? You are just spinning!
So Thanks Mike for admitting that the word “God” in referring to Jesus can mean that Jesus is “a True God” and that he is your “true god” for you say he is “the god” of all believers in heaven and earth.!
So once again, what has Mike proved?
So when we bring up a scripture that calls Jesus God then according to Mikes own words they can mean that he is God almighty!
In fact Mike has yet to show us by scripture how Jesus is not “God” and how he is not “Almighty”. Therefore because Jesus is called “God” and he is “Almighty” then that means he is God Almighty. Rev 1:8 – Rev 22:12, 13 – Rev 22:20
Thanks again for admitting the truth. It took me a while to get a confession out of you.
WJ
WorshippingJesus,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
WJ said to Mike:Quote Thanks again for admitting the truth. It took me a while to get a confession out of you. 
theos and elohim is applied to not just the Most High God legitimately but to others including man and angel.
But yes of course it includes God and does so most of the time.Similarly, adam applies to all mankind including Adam himself.
Adam is a specific individual.
And God is a HIM too.
This is the part that trips you up.The Greek uses the definite article and in English we use it or we capitalise.
That is also why when Adam (the first man) is being spoken of he is not referred to as THEY.
Likewise with God. He is referred to as HIM and HIS.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 09 2011,16:38) That is also why when Adam (the first man) is being spoken of he is not referred to as THEY.
t8But the scriptures do refer to “adam” as “they” don't they?
You cannot seperate “adam” from Adam. Adam is part of adam.
So when someone refers to Adam they are also refering to adam or else they could be refering to a dog named Adam.
Your smokescreens do not change scripture t8.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2011,13:51)
Mike has admitted that the word “theos” or God when referring to Jesus could mean he is God Almighty!
Not quite Keith. What I said is that someone being called by the title “elohim” does not automatically mean they are NOT God Almighty. This should be evident from the many times we know God Almighty is referred to by that title.But while “elohim” COULD refer to God Almighty, the title in and of itself is not enough to conclude that it does. For that, we must take the context into consideration.
There are only 6 scriptures (out of thousands) where Jesus is called by the title “god”. And not one of those six scriptures is surrounded by context that would imply Jesus is anything more than a “mighty one” and a “vice regent” of his own God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2011,13:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2011,17:00) And I don't know of a scripture that calls Jesus “the true god”, but I agree that he is. I answered to this mistake two pages later on the same thread, Found Here, 8th post from the top. This is my post:
Quote And I didn't read the word “THE” close enough in my comment. I meant, and should have said that Jesus is “A true god”, just as the ones God called “gods” and Satan are true gods. It is a title that means “ruler”, Keith. Are you saying that Satan is NOT a true “ruler” to many?
You'll notice from my argument about Satan, that this is before Keith finally admitted, “that just because Jesus is called God does not mean he is God.” At that time, he was still insistent that all “elohim” besides Jesus and Jehovah were “false gods”. He has since acknowledged the truth of the matter. And some of you told me Keith was “unteachable”. But just look at him learning scriptural truth by leaps and bounds! You'll also notice that I made a typographical error which I clarified to him the next day. Yet many weeks later, he chooses to use my mistake as “evidence” about what I believe.
Can anyone say “TRUE COLORS”?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2011,13:51)
In fact Mike has yet to show us by scripture how Jesus is not “God” and how he is not “Almighty”.
That's a flat out lie, Keith. I've showed you plenty. Take your pick of the many times he's called “the Son of God”. That title in itself is enough to tell you he's not the God he is the Son of.mike
To all, (Col.3:9-11)
What makes you guys 'think' trying to 'trick' someone
by asking questions with 'spin' to make it appear that
they are agreeing with you when you take their 'words
out of context' will accomplish anything but resentment?The New Man (Eph.2:15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgBump with explanation.
Ok I went to edit parts of this post and use it in another post and ended up changing the first post. I tried to copy the original from the cache and it kept putting my edited post back. I even tried to sign out and reopen a new browser and it still will not change the original back.
What happened t8 and Mike? How do I fix this becasue now its no longer in my cache.
But here is the edited post which I adjusted to Mikes claim that he didn't mean to say “the true god” but rather “a true god” in reference to Jesus…
OK So Mike has changed his story so lets see what that means…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2011,14:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2011,04:32) When Jesus is referred to as “elohim” or “theos” does it absolutely and positively mean he is “NOT” God Almighty?
I BELIEVE I SAID: “NO!So what has Mike proved? Mike also has made these statements…
NOW HERE IS THE ADJUSTED PART…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2011,17:00) And I don't know of a scripture that calls Jesus “A true god“, but I agree that he is. And…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth. Does anyone see the difference in these two statements?
Do you see the words “The god”? So if he is “The god” of all in heaven right now then is he not “The True God”. What is the difference in the 2 statements? You are just spinning!
So Thanks Mike for admitting that the word “God” in referring to Jesus can mean that Jesus is “a True God” and that he is your “true god” for you say he is “the god” of all believers in heaven and earth.!
So once again, what has Mike proved?
So when we bring up a scripture that calls Jesus God then according to Mikes own words they can mean that he is God almighty!
In fact Mike has yet to show us by scripture how Jesus is not “God” and how he is not “Almighty”. Therefore because Jesus is called “God” and he is “Almighty” then that means he is God Almighty. Rev 1:8 – Rev 22:12, 13 – Rev 22:20
Thanks again for admitting the truth. It took me a while to get a confession out of you.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,13:46) Do you see the words “The god”? So if he is “The god” of all in heaven right now then is he not “The True God”. What is the difference in the 2 statements? You are just spinning!
Here Keith,Let me repost my “stock” answer I've saved in my new thread for the many times you play word games about this subject:
I have told you this many times, Keith. This time I will post it in my new thread about points that need not be brought up again, just so we're all sure about my DIRECT and COMPLETE answer to your point. That way, you never need to bring this point up again, right?
Keith, if the word “god” meant to us today what it meant to the people of Biblical times, I would gladly call Jesus “my god”. But it doesn't. Today, we wouldn't refer to “Judge Judy” as “God Judy”. Today we wouldn't call the king of a country the “god” of that country. Today, if an angel brought us a message from God, we would tell people that an angel appeared to us. We would not tell them that “God” appeared to us.
But this is now, and that was then. Things were different then. Back then, they DID call judges “gods”. They DID call kings “gods”. They DID call angels “gods”. And back then, if someone called Jesus “god”, it would have been understood (ESPECIALLY by the Jews, who were STRICTLY monotheistic), that Jesus was being called a “leader” or “judge” or “ruler” or “mighty one” or “a vice regent of God”.
So back to your points:
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
But for some reason I never hear you call him your god.
This is because of the way we today understand the word “god”, as opposed to the way people in Biblical times understood the words “el”, “elohim” and “theos”. I do not want to confuse people by calling Jesus by the title of “god”, and having them think I am calling him the only true God. If I lived in the 1st century A.D., I would happily tell everyone that Jesus was my god. But I live in the 21st century A.D., and so I will say he is my Lord, my King, my Ruler, and my Savior………….but I will not say he is “my god”, because of the confusion it would create.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2011,09:43)
All you ever do is claim that he is not god.
What I do is SCRIPTURALLY show you every day that Jesus is not “God Almighty”. I understand that he is the only begotten Son of the only true God. I understand that he is the second most powerful being in existence. I understand that he is my Lord and my King, and all knees will bow to him. And knowing what WE both know about the words “elohim” and “theos”, I'm not really claiming that Jesus is not “A god”, or “A mighty one”. I'm claiming that he is not THE ALMIGHTY ONE.Keith, do you understand now?
Jesus is A god, who right now has been granted by his own God to be THE god (ruler, as in King) of heaven right now. He is still UNDER his own God (Ruler, as in King to his Prince), but his God has let him rule for the time being.
Just as Satan is currently THE god of this world, Jesus is currently THE god who has been given the authority to rule over heaven. This is temporary Keith. He will soon hand the Kingdom (translation: his rule) back to his God who gave it.
But even then, Jesus will be THE god who rules over all from the right hand of THE Most High God of all gods, who is also HIS God.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2011,15:18) But even then, Jesus will be THE god who rules over all from the right hand of THE Most High God of all gods, who is also HIS God.
Hi allThis is pure Polytheism or Henotheism taken straight out of Greek Mythology!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2011,15:18) Jesus is A god, who right now has been granted by his own God to be THE god (ruler, as in King) of heaven right now. He is still UNDER his own God (Ruler, as in King to his Prince), but his God has let him rule for the time being.
More Greek Mythology.This is scripturally false, because the scripture never say Jesus will ever cease to rule his Kngdom but in fact the scriptures say that “his Kingdom and Dominion is forever and ever”!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2011,15:18) Keith, if the word “god” meant to us today what it meant to the people of Biblical times, I would gladly call Jesus “my god”.
But you already called him “your god” for you said “he is the god of all believers in heaven and in earth”.Do you let the present day world dictate to you Biblical truth?
Are you ashamed to call Jesus your “god”?
Get real man. There was only One True God then and there is Only One True God now. Just as there were so-called gods, and false gods then so there are so-called and false gods now!
The world doesn't call the Father God but does that mean that you won't tell the world he is.
Are you ashamed to tell the world satan is the “god of this world”?
Are you ashamed of “What” Jesus is? If he is “a God” or “The god” to all believers then why don't you confess him so to the world.
Truth is truth right Mike?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 10 2011,09:05) You cannot seperate “adam” from Adam. Adam is part of adam.
Adam is adam but adam is not Adam unless you are indetifying the right particular individual.Again, it is the difference of identifying a specific individual as opposed to talking about substance/flesh/nature.
The distinction is in scripture and I accept it. You seem to be fighting against it and that is silly because it is actually useful to know how the distinction works.
Also, you probably make the same distinction every day without realising it. But when it comes to defending your false doctrine, you then claim that there is no distinction.
How sad for you that you cannot be honest about it.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 12 2011,16:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 10 2011,09:05) You cannot seperate “adam” from Adam. Adam is part of adam.
Adam is adam but adam is not Adam unless you are indetifying the right particular individual.Again, it is the difference of identifying a specific individual as opposed to talking about substance/flesh/nature.
The distinction is in scripture and I accept it. You seem to be fighting against it and that is silly because it is actually useful to know how the distinction works.
Also, you probably make the same distinction every day without realising it. But when it comes to defending your false doctrine, you then claim that there is no distinction.
How sad for you that you cannot be honest about it.
You know t8 you call me dishonest but you yourself cannot prove your theory can you?Just give us one example where you can “identify” anything without “identifying” the nature of the thing.
Who is being dishonest with all the spin?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 12 2011,16:20) Adam is adam but adam is not Adam unless you are indetifying the right particular individual.
Exactly, like identifying the Father and the Son who both are equally God just as adam is equally adam to Adam.To simple for you I guess.
WJ
t8 said:
Quote theos and elohim is applied to not just the Most High God legitimately but to others including man and angel.
t8,You said that men and angels may “legitimately” be called “god.” But the scholars say that the name “god” is applied metaphorically to men and angels. In other words, men and angels were not “god” in the true and proper sense of the term.
Quote If we have recourse to the use of the word Elohim in the study of its meaning, we find that in its proper sense it denotes either the true God or false gods, and metaphorically it is applied to judges, angels, and kings; and even accompanies other nouns, giving them a superlative meaning.The presence of the article, the singular construction of the word, and its context show with sufficient clearness whether it must be taken in its proper or its metaphorical sense, and what is its precise meaning in each case. Kautzsch (Encyclopaedia Biblica, III, 3324, n. 2) endeavours to do away with the metaphorical sense of Elohim. Instead of the rendering “judges” he suggests the translation “God”, as witness of a lawsuit, as giver of decisions on points of law, or as dispenser of oracles; for the rendering “angels” he substitutes “the gods of the heathen”, which, in later post-exilic times, fell to a lower rank. But this interpretation is not supported by solid proof.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05393a.htmWhen are you guys going to stop passing yourselves off as scholars?
KJ
t8 said to WJ:
Quote How sad for you that you cannot be honest about it.
t8,I called Mike dishonest just as you have called WJ dishonest and Mike just gave me another tile for it. Mike should not give out tiles if he is involved in the discussion. In such an instance he should report the perceived offense to you just like anyone else. A moderator who is himself involved in a discussion canoot be objective. I did not deserve the tile. I have not done anything that you and Mike don't do. Please consider removing one tile from my other user name Kangaroo Jack and instruct Mike to report a perceived offense to you unless he is not himself a participant in a discussion.
A moderator by its very definition is a non-participant and Mike is wrong to act in his capacity as moderator in a discussion inwhich he participates.
KJ
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 12 2011,15:20) How sad for you that you cannot be honest about it.
I'm having the same problem getting people to honestly and directly answer questions. If we started from a base of honesty, we could get somewhere in these discussions.The people who divert and flood and do anything possible to keep from actually answering a question must think the others here can't see what they're doing.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,14:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2011,15:18) Keith, if the word “god” meant to us today what it meant to the people of Biblical times, I would gladly call Jesus “my god”.
But you already called him “your god” for you said “he is the god of all believers in heaven and in earth”.Do you let the present day world dictate to you Biblical truth?
Are you ashamed to call Jesus your “god”?
Keith, do you really want my “stock” reply again? I am not ashamed to call Jesus my god, because I know what the word represented then. But I won't do it in public today because I also know what the word means today. Those meanings are not the same Keith, and you know this.If someone was to say Jesus was their god back then, it wouldn't have automatically meant he was God Almighty. If I say it today, it does automatically, to most people, mean he is God Almighty.
How many different ways must I say this?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,14:34)
Get real man. There was only One True God then and there is Only One True God now.
No Keith. Jehovah is the God of gods. That is the most stupid statement ever if there are no other gods He is the God of.I'm reading Deut right now, and there are too many mentions of other gods to count. Moses expresses gratitude that no other nation is a blessed to have their god as close and personal as the Israelite's God Jehovah is. He talks about how Jehovah no only killed Egypt's firstborn on Passover, but also dealt severely with their gods. There is no mention that these were “false gods”.
Deborah was a god, Keith. Was she a false god? Of course not. She was a vice regent of Jehovah. She was most likely one of the gods mentioned in Psalm 82:1, whom God presides over. For you to stick your head in the sand and insists there is literally only one god in scripture is just wrong. And you only do it to eliminate all the other “elohim”, leaving only Jesus and Jehovah to be considered “true gods”.
But in the process of claiming unscriptural things to justify your man-made doctrine, you blindly just ignore the fact that any time only ONE GOD is mentioned, it is always Jehovah, the Father of Jesus – not Jesus himself.
So if you follow your literal “ONE GOD” theory all the way through honestly, you are the one who is saying Jesus is a “false god”, because he sure as the gospel isn't the Father or Jehovah.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,14:34)
Just as there were so-called gods, and false gods then so there are so-called and false gods now!
There is no such thing as a “so-called god” anywhere in the scriptures. I have showed you this, so please stop using the “so-called” phrase, because it is not in the scriptures.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2011,21:06) If someone was to say Jesus was their god back then, it wouldn't have automatically meant he was God Almighty. If I say it today, it does automatically, to most people, mean he is God Almighty.
Mike
Really? Says who Mike? What about history including the reformation? They were all Trinitarians. You need to accept all of the scriptures and the testimony of the Apostles and the Forefathers and history right down to the present day.Ask most Christians today if Jesus is “a god” or if he is not “The True God”.
The only ones I know of that state that are the JWs. Even most all of your anti-Jesus is God friends do not believe Jesus is “a god” at all and sure do not confess Jesus as “their god” or “My god”.
WJ
WJ
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