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This is a question primarily for T8, but anyone can answer, of course.
Can something come from nothing? Let's put it to the test with a specific example:
Where did God come from?
A) Someone, (i.e. an intelligent being)
B) Something, (i.e. a non-intelligent thing)
C) Nothing, (i.e. nothing)If I understand the logic correctly [insert sarcastic eye roll here], it's not possible for something unintelligent to produce something as profoundly intelligent as God, and it is completely ludicrous that omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence could sprout from nothing. Hence, the only logical answer is that God came from Someone Intelligent, or as I like to call it the great God-Mother.
After such a clear explanation, does anyone dare deny the existence of the great God-Mother?
How did I do T8?
Your analogy only works if God in fact came at all. But that is not the case. God has always been – He didn't “come into being”.
Now surely even you can grasp this hard teaching, because even with evolution, something (some matter or energy) had to have ALWAYS existed.
Where did the planets come from? How about the particles they're made from? How about the particles those particles were made from?
See? Even in your understanding, something(s) must have ALWAYS existed for other things to have evolved from them, right?
Quote Even in your understanding, something(s) must have ALWAYS existed for other things to have evolved from them, right? Yes, and why is that not possible?
What are our other choices? Give me an example of what YOU think might have existed forever, before becoming the source of all intelligent life in existence.
And now we circle back to the point of the original post.
Can you describe what the universe was like BEFORE the existence of time?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 13 2011,01:38) This is a question primarily for T8, but anyone can answer, of course. Can something come from nothing? Let's put it to the test with a specific example:
Where did God come from?
A) Someone, (i.e. an intelligent being)
B) Something, (i.e. a non-intelligent thing)
C) Nothing, (i.e. nothing)If I understand the logic correctly [insert sarcastic eye roll here], it's not possible for something unintelligent to produce something as profoundly intelligent as God, and it is completely ludicrous that omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence could sprout from nothing. Hence, the only logical answer is that God came from Someone Intelligent, or as I like to call it the great God-Mother.
After such a clear explanation, does anyone dare deny the existence of the great God-Mother?
How did I do T8?
It is not my fault that you do not understand the concept of infinity. (Eyes rolling.)From infinity, all finites are possible.
But finites are not possible from nothing.
And life can produce life and intelligence can produce design.The only other slightly feasible possibility is if a dead infinite thing produced life.
But even scientists agree that at the moment of the Big Bang, all things were predetermined in that first moment, even life.
And arguing that a feature of a product is not present in the source means that you are arguing for something that is outside the source itself.Quote It is not my fault that you do not understand the concept of infinity. [snipped eye rolling] Why can't the universe be “infinite”?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 13 2011,12:33) And now we circle back to the point of the original post. Can you describe what the universe was like BEFORE the existence of time?
withow can anyone see or understand the invisible being that his God the creator ,who his without time or distance either length , whit, depth, height, no beginning no end ,
are you not try the impossible ??
Pierre
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 12 2011,12:33) And now we circle back to the point of the original post.
Correct. And that point was “Where did God come from?” I have asserted that God didn't “come from” anywhere, because God has always been.It is now for you to tell me why you think matter and energy could have existed forever, but God couldn't have.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 13 2011,07:30) Why can't the universe be “infinite”?
Hi WIT,That's what Scientists were hoping for, an infinite universe.
But unfortunately for them, “Big Bang” cosmology rules that out.
This evidence points to a Creator, something Atheists do NOT want.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2011,07:22) It is now for you to tell me why you think matter and energy could have existed forever, but God couldn't have.
The evidence that matter and energy has existed forever is exactly the same as the evidence that God has existed forever, (i.e. none).What this really comes down to is the fact that you ALREADY believe in God so you assume that he created everything when, in fact, you should first figure out if there is real evidence for this God that you believe in.
Ultimately, the point of this thread is to demonstrate that if you start with a false premise, logic serves no useful purpose. Every true belief starts with solid evidence, not logic or analogies or anything else.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 13 2011,15:45) The evidence that matter and energy has existed forever is exactly the same as the evidence that God has existed forever, (i.e. none).
Not so.If we rule out nothing as being the source, then we are left with 2 infinite possibilites.
1) A creator
2) A dead non-aware thing.Which of the two could produce life?
1) A living being
2) A dead non-aware thingWhich has the greater chance of designing something.
1) A person with the IQ of 120
2) A thing with the IQ of 0.Now consider this for a minute.
1) There was a God that created the universe.
2) Or an eternal thing maybe something like gravity caused a bang and in the first few moments, the universe was the size of a grapefruit. It kept exploding and unraveled the galaxies, stars, planets, and moons, and even life itself, and bananas and heaps of other stuff. Then for some reason, most of the highest most intelligent lifeforms on Earth believed in a creator of some kind as the source of all. Silly them and yet they exist at the top of the intelligent stakes.So it is either God or and eternal dead thing of some kind.
That is it folks.
So please divide yourselves up. Those who believe in the eternal dead thing theory please stand to the left and those that believe in a creator, stand to the right.
Before you make that decision, consider one more thing. As ludicrous as all the options may seem to our experience, we only need to look at the evidence to know the answer. And what is the evidence? It is the fact that the universe and us exist.
See that. It is even ludicrous to believe that we exist. But guess what folks. We exist. So how hard is it to accept that a creator exists too. Not hard at all when you weigh the evidence.
T8,
Did you miss the conclusion in my last post to Mike?
I said:
Quote Ultimately, the point of this thread is to demonstrate that if you start with a false premise, logic serves no useful purpose. Every true belief starts with solid evidence, not logic or analogies or anything else. What you've done in your last post, (like you do in many posts on this topic), is start with a logical construct limited by your own understanding and imagination. For example, we can add a third option to your list of infinite possibilities:
3) Energy, matter, and a seed of consciousness.
This seed of consciousness could have grown and developed into the intelligence that we see in the life around us.
Is that what actually happened though?
There's only one way to find out: Look for evidence!
When you say:
Quote And what is the evidence? It is the fact that the universe and us exist. You are not presenting evidence. You are begging the question.
Our existence is evidence for something, but until we understand the larger context of our existence, we can't be sure of exactly what it is evidence for.
So, without begging the question, what evidence do you have for your god?
This should be the easiest question for a Christian to answer, because, according to your bible, God has done such things as rain down fire from heaven to prove that he is the one true god, (1 Kings 18:36-39). In other words, your god is supposedly not shy about intervening in our physical world to make his presence known. Why not just point to some documented physical evidence?
Better yet, why not just go to your god directly and have him tell you my name, or turn my pet cat green*, or something trivial for an almighty god to show that he is real and that you are one of his true servants? Are you afraid to do so? Do you, deep down, know that there will never be a response?
Go back and read your bible for inspiration. The pages are filled with God miraculously intervening in everything from wars to a woman's menstruation problems.
Stop relying on logic, (i.e. “man's foolishness”), and tap into the power. And, when you do, make sure to document it and tell us about it.
*For the record, I don't have a pet cat, so if you were able to pull this off, it would truly be a miracle!
WIT.
Start with the evidence now.
We exist in a universe. We are alive.
The universe is technologically speaking way beyond our understanding.So how did it happen?
There are only 3 explanations.
An infinite creator
An infinite dead thing
Nothing.We know that the last option is impossible.
So we are left with 2 contenders.
I simply point out the odds of either resulting in a universe that contains life.
My arguments are clear, fair, and logical.
If that is not enough, then offer some clear thinking to the contrary.
And yes, I started with the premise that God exists.
I wouldn't have bothered otherwise.But I clearly and logically show deductions that most people haven't thought of, and yet are pretty obvious and simple that anyone can understand.
If anything, you start from the opposite premise and that is fine.
But you show no logical thinking as to why the eternal thing is dead, non-intelligent, and yet produced the opposite of what itself is.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 14 2011,03:32) You are not presenting evidence. You are begging the question.
WIT, I am using the process of deduction and simply make a fair argument about each of the 3 possible options that we have to choose from.If I am wrong, then show where I have erred in my argument.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 14 2011,03:32) So, without begging the question, what evidence do you have for your god?
Wrong topic WIT.This is about a creator.
Once you can see that a creator is the only viable option, then you can move onto base 2, which is who that God is.
And knowing who God is is obviously not in the realm of science but relationship.
To know a person of any stature is not scientific it is social.Scripture says that God exists and that men do not know God by reason of being separated from him.
Please don't jump the gun here. This topic is base one not base 2.
Is there a God or not.
Can something come from nothing.
No.Is the universe eternal or is it the product of an eternal mind.
Who God is is not contextual to this topic.
And as I said to Stu.Does the fact that men disagree on who God is mean that God doesn't exist.
Of course not.Similarly, if men disagree on who killed President Kennedy, does that mean that there was no killer?
Making the argument that God doesn't exist because men disagree on who God is is not logical.
The fact that men generally believe and argue over the who, is actually in line with scripture too.
Scripture says God exists and men do not know him by reason of being separated from him.Acts 17:22-25
22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.
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