- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote
So you dont believe in Genesis ch.6.
Where the fallen angels mated with humans.How can you;for it will only contradict your doctrine.
But yet, you believe that angels are made of flesh.
And so is Jesus ,because he can eat and drink.I believe in Genesis 6 where the sons of godly Seth marry the mere human daughters of corrupt Cain. I know of only one fall of the angels and that happened when Satan led them to rebellion during the beginning. I also know that Jesus' words contradict it.
I can see where you are coming from but it requires isolating Genesis 6 from its context.
I believe Jesus is flesh and bone because he claimed to be. I did not require him to prove it by the tests but those for whom the tests were performed went before me and witness onto me. I also believe he is not a spirit because the whole purpose in doing those tests was to prove he was not.
I believe angels are not spirits because they pass those same two tests to reveal they are not spirit.
I know that Scripture speaks of the tree of life being in the midst of the the paradise of Eden in the beginning. Then a paradise with that same tree of life is mentioned in Revelations; which makes me think it is the same one. We can claim the whole story of the time before the fall and the fall itself is symbolic but I am unwilling to go that far as of yet.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil also made more man more like angels but they then lacked immortality as a result of the change.
Quote From ashes they are created;and to ashes shall they return. That is a curse that was uttered by God in response to adam's sin. They were made of the earth but the curse did not exist until pronounced by God.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=4443;hl=puzzle
The thread above “Jesus' resurrection–a puzzle” while not focusing on this verse, at least gives the reasons for the other perspective.
“….to explain why angels could both eat and be touched.”–kerwin
Can angels both eat (physical food) and be touched (by a physical person)?
Quote (2besee @ Sep. 26 2013,20:34) Don't be fooled by them kerwin, they try to suck people in, and this site appears to endorse them. Why is that?
2BesseAt least Kerwin has enough manners to converse orderly, and give his reasons why he does not agree. If he agrees on something he will state it. He does not come on with accusing statements. He does not jump on to the bandwagon with those who detest us (ie Pierre) just for the sake of going against us. He does not try to cause division with the brethren, but always politely gives his reasons.
At least when others have a look into this site, they can see some general points provided by both sides, and not just brethren condemning with no evidence.
Wakeup,
Angels are ministering spirits (Hebrews 1:14).
Spirits do not have flesh and bone like you see I have (Luke 24:39).Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2013,19:28) Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 26 2013,13:44) Quote (2besee @ Sep. 26 2013,16:46) Kerwin, I believe that those who deny that Jesus was raised in the flesh, are in a way, denying the resurrection.
Read 1 Corinthians 15 to get a better idea.
If a body is raised spirit, then what is different about the resurrection? Nothing. See the denial?
JWs (and some here) deny that Jesus was raised flesh, and teach such. They also deny the power and gifts. Of such people, we are told to stay away.
Matthew 23:9
2 Timothy 3:5.Belief in the resurrection is a salvation issue.
Romans 10:9
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.Kerwin,
This is a powerful scripture.
Journey,It is and means exactly what it states as the natural is mere flesh and the Spiritual is flesh enlivened by the Spirit of God. Some deny that just like they chose to deny that Jesus presented evidence he was not a spirit by eating and drinking.
KerwinI have to disagree. It is sown (born) a natural body (flesh), and is raised a spiritual body (after death).
The verse says nothing about being raised flesh, but spirit after we die. To me this is simple.Journey,
I have been on here a lot longer than you and I have seen it all. You forgot to mention the past and the things that you have said to others. But no, I won't go there.Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 27 2013,10:11) Quote (2besee @ Sep. 26 2013,20:34) Don't be fooled by them kerwin, they try to suck people in, and this site appears to endorse them. Why is that?
2BesseAt least Kerwin has enough manners to converse orderly, and give his reasons why he does not agree. If he agrees on something he will state it. He does not come on with accusing statements. He does not jump on to the bandwagon with those who detest us (ie Pierre) just for the sake of going against us. He does not try to cause division with the brethren, but always politely gives his reasons.
At least when others have a look into this site, they can see some general points provided by both sides, and not just brethren condemning with no evidence.
Agreed. Kerwin is probably one of the most mannerly people on this site.Agreed. Kerwin is a mellow fellow. Maybe he smokes pot before he posts. That would explain some of the crazy things he claims.
journey, you are right that 1 Cor 15:44 is a very powerful scripture…….. and says NOTHING about any “spiritual FLESH”.
And Wakeup has quoted 1 Cor 15:50, which should end the discussion once and for all. I mean, if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, that should be all there is to it. But because of the bias of certain people, they will imagine that “flesh and blood” cannot enter, but “flesh and bone” can. And to me, that is pure nonsense. If FLESH cannot enter, then FLESH cannot enter – whether it is accompanied by blood or bone.
Jesus explained the same thing to Nicodemus in John 3. The reason he gave for us having to be born again in order to enter the kingdom of God was that flesh gives birth to flesh, and spirit gives birth to spirit. It is for THIS REASON that we must be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to enter the kingdom of God.
And notice how Jesus doesn't add “blood” or “bone” to his teaching. He simply says that FLESH cannot enter, so we must be born again of something other than flesh.
I've done this thing with Kerwin 100 times already. I've explained to him that the “sons of God” who mated with the humans could not be the “godly sons of Seth” in contrast to the “ungodly sons of Cain”. Because what would be the point of saying they took for themselves the “daughters of adam”? And why would that create a new breed called “Nephilim”? Because godly or not, the sons of Seth were still sons of adam, and had always mated with daughters of adam.
Anyway, it is sometimes hard and USELESS to argue against a person who is so dead set on his biased perspective that he can no longer see the light.
So for that reason, I will not join this discussion as a regular, and only popped in to tell Wakeup and journey to keep up the good work. Just keep answering with scriptures, and you'll never go wrong, guys.
Quote (david @ Sep. 27 2013,00:59) https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=4443;hl=puzzle The thread above “Jesus' resurrection–a puzzle” while not focusing on this verse, at least gives the reasons for the other perspective.
David,The 4th icon on the left side of the toolbar is http:// links and allows you a better way to post such links.
Quote Jesus was dead, and then he was resurrected, but not as a human (for he sacrificed his perfect human body.) Jesus straight up declared that he had a flesh and bone body in Luke 24:39-43, which is about Jesus establishing he was not a spirit after his resurrection. What I quoted says one thing and Jesus states another that disagrees with it and then he proposes two tests to verify his words.
Adam had a perfect body before he sinned as death could not enter into the world before he sinned. Therefore his body at that time was immortal. Jesus had a body that was subject to death and so not a perfect body. His risen body was no longer subject to decay and he only bore the marks of his ordeal because God, who can heal all things, chose for that to be.
Mike.
Flesh and blood “in it's present state” cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
That's why it is changed!
You of little faith, endorsing the false teachings of men.Behold! I tell
you a mystery. We shall not all
sleep, but we shall all be
changed, in a moment, in
the twinkling of an eye, at the
last trumpet. For the trumpet
will sound, and the dead will be
raised imperishable, and we
shall be changed. For this
perishable body must put on
the imperishable, and this
mortal body put on immortal.“Flesh and blood” ALSO means sinful man.
I tell you this, brothers:
flesh and blood cannot inherit
the kingdom of God.Or do you not know that wrongdoers will
not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not
be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral
nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who
have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards
nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God.Quote (david @ Sep. 27 2013,01:09) “….to explain why angels could both eat and be touched.”–kerwin Can angels both eat (physical food) and be touched (by a physical person)?
David,Yes, as they are observed doing both when visiting Lot's home just prior to the destruction of Sodom.
Genesis 19:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
Both angels are said to eat.
Genesis 19:10
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
Both angels touch Lot.
It is the human teaching of Gnostism that teach that angels are spirits not Scripture.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2013,11:46) Agreed. Kerwin is a mellow fellow. Maybe he smokes pot before he posts. That would explain some of the crazy things he claims. journey, you are right that 1 Cor 15:44 is a very powerful scripture…….. and says NOTHING about any “spiritual FLESH”.
And Wakeup has quoted 1 Cor 15:50, which should end the discussion once and for all. I mean, if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, that should be all there is to it. But because of the bias of certain people, they will imagine that “flesh and blood” cannot enter, but “flesh and bone” can. And to me, that is pure nonsense. If FLESH cannot enter, then FLESH cannot enter – whether it is accompanied by blood or bone.
Jesus explained the same thing to Nicodemus in John 3. The reason he gave for us having to be born again in order to enter the kingdom of God was that flesh gives birth to flesh, and spirit gives birth to spirit. It is for THIS REASON that we must be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to enter the kingdom of God.
And notice how Jesus doesn't add “blood” or “bone” to his teaching. He simply says that FLESH cannot enter, so we must be born again of something other than flesh.
I've done this thing with Kerwin 100 times already. I've explained to him that the “sons of God” who mated with the humans could not be the “godly sons of Seth” in contrast to the “ungodly sons of Cain”. Because what would be the point of saying they took for themselves the “daughters of adam”? And why would that create a new breed called “Nephilim”? Because godly or not, the sons of Seth were still sons of adam, and had always mated with daughters of adam.
Anyway, it is sometimes hard and USELESS to argue against a person who is so dead set on his biased perspective that he can no longer see the light.
So for that reason, I will not join this discussion as a regular, and only popped in to tell Wakeup and journey to keep up the good work. Just keep answering with scriptures, and you'll never go wrong, guys.
Hi MikeThank you. You have good understanding on this subject. I'm glad that this scripture speaks to you, and you understand it perfectly. Thats wisdom Mike, to discern the scriptures because you are using common sense also, and working out that 1+1=2
This is the best thing I've heard all day2besee,Sep. wrote:[/quote]
Quote
Journey,
I have been on here a lot longer than you and I have seen it all. You forgot to mention the past and the things that you have said to others. But no, I won't go there.2Besse
The things we have talked about in the past, especially regarding this subject, I went to great lengths to explain to you. I did not just ignore, I addressed your every word and statement. I found they didn't fit with all the other scriptures and I was showing you. Then you started picking on me about my grammar? (Is that spelt right?) and accusing me of being Wakeup. (so funny!) So we were speaking of the scriptures and then you go all personal on me. I better not show a photo of myself, you might even call me ugly
but you don't have a photo so instead call me evil
So there can't be any contradictions. How many false doctrines have come out of Jesus' one liners?
For example;
because of this scripture, a whole doctrine has come out saying Jesus is God the Father;
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.So they say, see, he said it himself. It's in black and white. But they ignore the other 200 scriptures stating Christ is not the Father, because they didn't understand the statement in the first place and didn't look deeper to see what he was actually meaning.
I know you are a nice guy 2Besse, but sometimes you don't come across that way because of your frustration or innability for me to accept what you are saying. If I agreed with you, then you would love me, just like Pierre would.
You are making yourself the judge just like Pierre does, when in fact the scriptures are the judge, and not open to private interpretation. So we use the scriptures to support or defend and they have to harmonise.
We don't hear from you for a while and then you come on with insults. It just looks cheap. So lets give it another go then, maybe on another post and see if we can have a better discussion.
But I will be busy for the next two days, only popping on here and there, but after that I'm all yours if you want to do it all over again, I will.Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 27 2013,05:18) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2013,19:28) Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 26 2013,13:44) Quote (2besee @ Sep. 26 2013,16:46) Kerwin, I believe that those who deny that Jesus was raised in the flesh, are in a way, denying the resurrection.
Read 1 Corinthians 15 to get a better idea.
If a body is raised spirit, then what is different about the resurrection? Nothing. See the denial?
JWs (and some here) deny that Jesus was raised flesh, and teach such. They also deny the power and gifts. Of such people, we are told to stay away.
Matthew 23:9
2 Timothy 3:5.Belief in the resurrection is a salvation issue.
Romans 10:9
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.Kerwin,
This is a powerful scripture.
Journey,It is and means exactly what it states as the natural is mere flesh and the Spiritual is flesh enlivened by the Spirit of God. Some deny that just like they chose to deny that Jesus presented evidence he was not a spirit by eating and drinking.
KerwinI have to disagree. It is sown (born) a natural body (flesh), and is raised a spiritual body (after death).
The verse says nothing about being raised flesh, but spirit after we die. To me this is simple.
Journey,Quote It is sown (born) a natural body (flesh)… The teaching that any flesh is natural flesh is not supported by Scripture. Scripture instead speaks of mere men and the corrupt desires of the flesh. The natural man and the Spiritual man. The man who lives according to the flesh and the one that lives according to the Spirit. The man that is born of woman and the man that is born of the Spirit.
We are taught that the Spirit declared Jesus to be God's Son with power by resurrecting him from the dead. In this way his flesh went from merely flesh to flesh empowered by the Spirit.
Romans 1:4
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)4 and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
The Greek language uses the word literally translated soulish that is used to mean beastly, non-Spiritual, carnal, etc. Natural also works but flesh used literally does not.
Some do the same error with 1 Corinthians 15:50 in that fail to consider the ways Scripture uses the word flesh but instead come with there own use. In doing so they contradict Jesus' words after his resurrection that he is flesh and bone.
Mike,
I know of two English translations that translate the passage to mortal bodies cannot enter the kingdom and so the passage is not definite prove your chosen interpretation is correct. Both translators claim that flesh and blood were a way people of the time Scripture was written spoke of mortal bodies. It is a common way of speech in Scripture that differentiates mere men to men who live by the Spirit.
To accept those two translation and the parallel interpretation of the words flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom would mean that Paul's word apply to Jesus and his body that was buried was not the body that was raised. His body that was buried was mere flesh while his body that was raised with power by the Spirit is more than flesh, Spiritual.
2besee,
It is best to forgive the harsh words others say to you and turn the other cheek and not return evil for evil. If they continue in their sin that is on them but if you are lured into sin then Satan has enslaved you. Be careful of the heart behind your words. Do not let bitterness turn it dark. Strive to speak lovingly even to those who make themselves your foes.
Kerwin,
The only time I get fired up at times is on forums. I mean, in real life I have not encountered other Christians telling me or others that they are lost and not saved, have you?JESUS SAVES. THAT IS THE MESSAGE!!!
Amen.
Many of us here in life have been saved from an ex life that may have involved anger, suffering, or for some drugs, drinking, violence, crime, and now they preach Jesus Christ and have completely changed their life around which is amazing, and nobody has the right as a Christian to tell those who have been saved that they are lost or not led by God. So, my patience CAN run thin on internet forums sometimes.
There are also some teachings, and behaviors, that I just cannot tolerate, and I react after so long, as one would react to bad food.
But you are right.
And thanks.
Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 27 2013,15:34) 2besee,Sep. wrote:Quote
Journey,
I have been on here a lot longer than you and I have seen it all. You forgot to mention the past and the things that you have said to others. But no, I won't go there.2Besse
The things we have talked about in the past, especially regarding this subject, I went to great lengths to explain to you. I did not just ignore, I addressed your every word and statement. I found they didn't fit with all the other scriptures and I was showing you. Then you started picking on me about my grammar? (Is that spelt right?) and accusing me of being Wakeup. (so funny!) So we were speaking of the scriptures and then you go all personal on me. I better not show a photo of myself, you might even call me ugly
but you don't have a photo so instead call me evil So there can't be any contradictions. How many false doctrines have come out of Jesus' one liners?
For example;
because of this scripture, a whole doctrine has come out saying Jesus is God the Father;
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.So they say, see, he said it himself. It's in black and white. But they ignore the other 200 scriptures stating Christ is not the Father, because they didn't understand the statement in the first place and didn't look deeper to see what he was actually meaning.
I know you are a nice guy 2Besse, but sometimes you don't come across that way because of your frustration or innability for me to accept what you are saying. If I agreed with you, then you would love me, just like Pierre would.
You are making yourself the judge just like Pierre does, when in fact the scriptures are the judge, and not open to private interpretation. So we use the scriptures to support or defend and they have to harmonise.
We don't hear from you for a while and then you come on with insults. It just looks cheap. So lets give it another go then, maybe on another post and see if we can have a better discussion.
But I will be busy for the next two days, only popping on here and there, but after that I'm all yours if you want to do it all over again, I will.Journey,
Okay, thanks. God bless.Quote (2besee @ Sep. 26 2013,14:19) Kerwin, Good topic. Obviously Jesus was flesh.
The antichrist denies the flesh, Jehovah's Witnesses deny the flesh, as do some here.My question is: What is Jesus now?
Jesus is here in spirit, do you agree?
Yes the antichrist spirit denies that he came in the flesh.And our brother Paul taught us the following:
“The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
To some degree this is a mystery.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
