Both Jesus and John the baptist not preexistent

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 09 2010,23:09)

Pierre,

I believe that you interpret scriptures to support the tenet of Preexistence, but that does not mean they do. The way I understand those same scriptures the do not so I spoke what I am confident is true.

What does your interpretation have to do with godliness which is the principle of godly reasoning? The teaching you embrace instead makes Jesus a superhuman and thus puts the goal he achieved and sets for us of being righteous and holy as God is out of our reach. That is reasoning that relies on the principles of this world.

I on the other hand believe Jesus is a human being who set an example and goal that can be reached through faith. He does not leave us alone but he unites us with the power of God to overcome all our sins and thus come to peace with God. The pursuit of godliness by the power of God is a godly principle.

Kerwin

first the preexistence is not reincarnation,it has nothing to do with all of us, as a soul,

what it is ;it is that God as chosen his son ,the first born of all creation to be the one qualified to performing the rescue for men sins.
to do that he had to give up his heavenly position and become one of us,and so he did voluntarily.this is what was foretold ,by the prophets.

Jn 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
Jn 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Jn 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Jn 6:34 “Sir,” they said, “from now on give us this bread.”
Jn 6:35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life.

Jn 8:38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you do what you have heard from your father

Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful WORD(Christ). After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Heb 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Heb 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world,

Heb 2:5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
Heb 2:6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
“What is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
Heb 2:7 You made him a little lower than the angels;
you crowned him with glory and honor
Heb 2:8 and put everything under his feet.”

In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

Heb 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

those scriptures i give you here are but a few,there is more of them ,but this should be sufficient for the spirit to understand that Christ was the son of God from heaven,not a man made who became the son of God,
there is only one ever son of God ,with many names but still one son ,the first born of all creation.

Pierre

November 9, 2010 at 10:18 am#223764

Participant

Pierre,

Joseph was also sent from above, which is to say from God, to Egypt in order to prepare the way for his family, Genesis 45:4-5. Don't you know that both Jesus and Joseph are good and perfect gifts and so come from above, James 1:17?

Jesus is in God's presence because God is in him and he is in God just as both Jesus and God are in those that believe and believers are in them.

Still, these are not issues I intend to cover by this thread. Instead I am attempting to demonstrate that despite the mechanics of his conception it was a conception just like any other human beings. Life begins as conception.

November 9, 2010 at 12:02 pm#223775

Participant

kerwin, I read your last post to Pierre, and you are dead wrong. When it says that God send Joseph, it means literally. You also did not address the Scriptures that Pierre quoted….. When it says that God send Jesus from Heaven, it means literally. However, Jesus first emptied Himself

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

This shows much more then just being in the mind of God. Please address these Scriptures this time…..along with John 1:1 and Rev. 19:13-16 ……..

Peace Irene

November 9, 2010 at 1:28 pm#223778

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Kerwin………..I tell you these people are bent on separating Jesus form our true Identity, they have bought into the great LIE spoken of by Paul in, 2Ths 2, they have turned the (IMAGE) of Jesus into the MAN OF SIN, making him a God or demigod or some super Angel, morphed into human kind saying He created every thing in existence, and making him the object of their worship. Read the reasoning of the Gnostic's they are no different then they , it is this (SEPARATION) of Jesus' Identity that John was referring to by the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrist. They force the text the same as the Trinitarians do to come out to their own false conceptions. Jesus came into (EXISTENCE) by being conceived and born by Mary , He never existed before that time period, except in the Plan and Will of GOD the FATHER for ALL of HUMANITY, Jesus was the First to Achieve that GOAL set by GOD the FATHER for us all.

They (preexistences) try to make a big deal our of the Fact God was His Father , but Jesus plainly said God was our father also , saying “YOUR FATHER in HEAVEN knows you have Need of these things”, and again , telling us to pray “(OUR Father) who is in Heaven” , and again “I am going to my GOD and YOUR GOD MY FATHER and YOUR FATHER”, many scriptures show this (EXACT) Identity, Jesus made (NO) distinction between Himself and Us except of being our Lord and Master on a HUMAN LEVEL, But above all of that he is our BROTHER, The first born from all the Physical creation into the Family of GOD.

Kerwin if you boil all the fat off of everything they (preexistences) say it works to (SEPARATE) JESUS FROM OUR IDENTITY. They are without a Doubt Antichrist, rather they realize it or not that does not change what they are doing. They viciously attack anyone who tries to present Jesus as another fellow Human Being Who God (perfected) and raised from the dead to eternal from man kind, AN (EXACT) EXAMPLE IN EVERY WAY WITH OUT EXCEPTION TO US , They deny we can come to the (FULL MEASURE) of HIM. BY overcoming (EXACTLY) as He didi through the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD, They drive off People Like Martian , barely, Jodi, Marty, Nick, and many others who seek and expound this Truth of GOD.

Kerwin it is critical we understand Jesus did not Preexist His Berth here on earth and NO scripture say he did either. I have ask for Just one scripture that (SPECIFICALLY) says Jesus Preexisted his berth on earth and they have Never produced ONE, NOT EVEN ONE< no matter what they say or what Scriptures they try to force to say what they falsely believe, there is None that Specifically Says Jesus was alive before his berth on earth as any kind of Being not ONE. Just speculations by scriptures that can be taken all kind of way is all they have, but nothing Specific at all. They don't even have enough common sense to ask why would GOD even do it that Way in the first place. Why would God take a already existing being Morph Him and try to pass him of as a real Human being in the first place that would be deceptive of God to do that and then tell us to be exactly like him when we can't be. Because he really was not like us in the first place.

peace and love to you and your……………………..gene

November 9, 2010 at 5:17 pm#223795

Participant

kerwin and Gene! Explain all of these Scriptures then, address each one…..

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jhn 1:6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.

Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.

Jhn 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.

Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

All Scriptures taken out of the Blue Letter Bible……Irene

November 9, 2010 at 5:27 pm#223796

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 09 2010,23:28)

peace and love to you and your……………………..gene

Gene, again and again you deny those Scriptures, you can't do anything except accuse us who believe these Scriptures and not man. That is what you have to do, because you can't handle plain Scriptures that by even Jesus own words in

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

If we believe and most do, that Jesus is a Spirit Being like His Father, because Scriptures say that He was created in the likeness of His Father. And as that He want back to, by Jesus own words….
Also what is this tread called…… I expect to have Scriptures that shows the preexisting of Jesus…… but you just can't hack it…..wake up Gene…….Peace Irene

November 9, 2010 at 5:39 pm#223798

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 10 2010,03:18)

Pierre,

Jesus is in God's presence because God is in him and he is in God just as both Jesus and God are in those that believe and believers are in them.

Kerwin

you have to stop having those men views ,because you start getting more away from truth every day,
you do not respond because you do not understand ,you debate what is not to debate ,you try to present sense in what there is no sense,

answer the question ,this will not go away kerwin ,i will ask again and again ,you will not been seen as a man of truth again until you answer with honesty.the truth of the preexistence of Christ.

Pierre

November 9, 2010 at 5:47 pm#223801

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 10 2010,06:28)

peace and love to you and your……………………..gene

gene

you are already a untrusted and unreliable source of truth ,

you are so wacky in your believes it is not funny anymore,

so start to prove your points with scriptures ,and answer the questions,

but you do not answer because there is no truth in you ,just some knowledge ,and even that is questionable,

Pierre

November 9, 2010 at 10:39 pm#223829

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Terricca………So it appears you still are an accuser right , I have posted many more Scriptures he then you ever have and You still do not get them so why wast my time, either you understand them or not, going around and around accomplishes nothing with You or Irene for that matter. You people just simply do not get it. Like JA has just said, you need to think more before speaking , that i would totally agree with. A novice should not speak Pierre, better you listen you might learn something. IMO

peace and love……………………………..gene

November 9, 2010 at 11:07 pm#223832

Participant

Gene,

I am concerned that I and others properly understand the spirit of the law no matter how badly we misunderstand the letter. From what I know it does not care what you believe about Jesus as long as you believe he has exactly the same power to resist temptation as any other human being in the new covenant. You must also believe He is the Christ who was crucified, resurrected, and ascended to heaven to seal and mediate the new covenant. So sincere students will presently, or will come to test our beliefs to ensure they are consistent with those ideas.

Students lack knowledge and gain knowledge by degrees so some sincere students of Christ have not yet come into knowledge of the basic ideas I mention above. That is why patience, love, and slowness to anger are necessary when sharing what you know.

November 9, 2010 at 11:27 pm#223837

Participant

Pierre,

Do you understand what the viewpoint of man is?

It is a viewpoint that in some way panders to man’s desire to sin. I have already pointed out how your viewpoint panders to man’s desire to sin by placing Jesus’ accomplishment of overcoming the sinful desires of this world out of reach even for those that have entered the new covenant. You should address that point as it is critical.

In addition the viewpoint of God is that we can and will stop sinning through faith if we enter and live by the new covenant.

I do attempt to answer your questions by sharing the knowledge of the Spiritual truths I now know that I believe answers them. Sometimes, I have answered questions elsewhere and so do not see a need to do so again. Other times I simply miss or forget them. There are also time I intend to answer them at a later time.

November 10, 2010 at 12:15 am#223843

Participant

Irene,

I am not sure if it is exactly speaking figuratively to say Joseph was sent from heaven as the sender, God, dwells and is enthroned in the Seventh Heaven and created Joseph from there. You should be familiar at least in general with this teaching through your reading scripture.

So you are arguing Jesus is saying the starting location of the envoy while I argue it is the location of the sender. Interesting!

I agree with Philippians 2 that we, like Jesus, must humble ourselves and thus seek to serve others and thus God even past the point of death and torture.

I also believe, like Revelations 3, that Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s Word, is God’s faithful and true servant, and is one and only Son of God.

I believe with Colossians 1 that Jesus is righteous as God is righteous, the firstborn of every new creation as through, by, and for him all things are recreated.

Haven’t you been taught to believe these things?

November 10, 2010 at 12:40 am#223853

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 10 2010,16:27)

Pierre,

Do you understand what the viewpoint of man is?

In addition the viewpoint of God is that we can and will stop sinning through faith if we enter and live by the new covenant.

Kerwin

you say;It is a viewpoint that in some way panders to man’s desire to sin.
——————————-

no, this is not my view or the scriptures;
first all we do is not sin or sin intended,there are good deeds and sinful deeds

men view is using a logic by using men understanding of things
and so interpret the scriptures in this fashion.

this we have debate in a other topic if you remember.

wen God gives you his understanding men as no influence to it.

this is called the truth.this is what we should look for.

but this can not be obtain unless you are changed on the inside and have clean yourself from sinful deeds.so that you can approach God in truth.

so it would be his spirit who guide you trough his word to the understanding without your own participation as men,

this is why we call it a living word and that brings live.

now to arrive in that position you have to have a faith that is strong so that you have no doubts in any way,this will also clear you of sin.

Pierre

November 10, 2010 at 3:39 am#223889

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 10 2010,10:15)

Irene,

So you are arguing Jesus is saying the starting location of the envoy while I argue it is the location of the sender. Interesting!

I agree with Philippians 2 that we, like Jesus, must humble ourselves and thus seek to serve others and thus God even past the point of death and torture.

I also believe, like Revelations 3, that Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s Word, is God’s faithful and true servant, and is one and only Son of God.

I believe with Colossians 1 that Jesus is righteous as God is righteous, the firstborn of every new creation as through, by, and for him all things are recreated.

Haven’t you been taught to believe these things?

kerwin, Wait a minute, did I say that Joseph came from Heaven to be send to Egypt? No…….Joseph was a man, born of flesh, and on Earth. Jesus was in Heaven and God send Him from there. What I was referring to about is sending someone…. Whether it was Joseph or Jesus….. what you are doing with Col. 1 and Rev. 3 where it says that Christ or The Word of God(Spoken Word of God) is the firstborn of all creation. You are interpret those Scriptures the way you want them to say, and not the way they are written. You also don't understand IMO what Phil. 2:5 is saying…. He was made into the likeness of men. Question, why would He be made in the likeness of men, when He already was a man….Some Bibles state that He emptied Himself and became like a man…. The Scriptures I copy and paste are out of the Blue Letter Bible. Being in the form of God, verse 6….what form is God? He is a Spirit Being. That is what The Word of God(Jesus) was, and is now. He then took on the likeness of men, and humbled Himself and died for us……That is what it says….Along with that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. Both Rev. 3:14 and Col 1:15 says. And both John and Col. tells us that God created all through Jesus and for Jesus (The Word of God). Also if Jesus was just a mere man He would have sinned. But He knew where He came from and what was at stake. All Human have fallen short of the glory if God. And if Jesus was just a man, that would also mean for Him. But I know that He was not just like a mere man….He was the firstborn of all creation and was brought forth from God. He was the literal Son of God, while we are created out of the dust of the earth….

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

And this is how The Word of God(Jesus) will return to do….I also believe that both The Word of God and God are titles….Jesus has a new name that no one knows……
Peace Irene.

November 10, 2010 at 3:44 am#223890

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 08 2010,12:42)

Hi Kerwin,

Is it possible for God to take an angel that he created 1 billion years ago, and have it born again from a female hippopotamus if He wanted to?

Go view the pre-existent database thread. We are up to about 35 scriptures now. How can you make them all just “disappear”?

mike

Mikeboll,

No! God is not into playing stupid parlor tricks. God is love.
God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

Actually, you have no verses for preexistence. Jesus Christ was foreordained, he is God's plan of redemption for mankind. If JC pre existed that would have been cheating on God's part.

Jesus Christ is the second Adam, if he preexisted, he would have been the first Adam.

barley

November 10, 2010 at 3:48 am#223891

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 08 2010,15:46)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 08 2010,21:56)

Pierre,

There are no scriptures that support the idea that Jesus preexists his birth and these scriptures support the idea Jesus and John the Baptist originated in their mother's wombs as that is what conceived means.

Kerwin

unless you answer to all the scriptures in the section preexisting as i ask you,

you are a liar but not to me to Gods word,and have no scriptures to back you self up.

SO ANSWER THE 38 SCRIPTURES AND EXPLAIN THEM IN THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURES

Pierre

I feel sorry for you. How many thousands of scriptures and you read only 30. You are really pitiful.

Jesus Christ is the seed of the woman. Moses foretold that a prophet like unto him would be born. Did Moses preexist?

barley

November 10, 2010 at 3:50 am#223892

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 08 2010,18:54)

Kerwin,

There is no evidence and not even any attempt by anyone (except you) that John the Baptist was anyone other than himself as a created human being.

Please either drop this nonesense or bring forward some reason or evidence why you brought this theme here in this thread.
[Moderator]

Just askin,

Kerwin's point is well made and scripturally sound. It is you that have the problem.

barley

November 10, 2010 at 3:52 am#223894

Participant

Quote (barley @ Nov. 10 2010,13:44)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 08 2010,12:42)

Hi Kerwin,

Is it possible for God to take an angel that he created 1 billion years ago, and have it born again from a female hippopotamus if He wanted to?

Go view the pre-existent database thread. We are up to about 35 scriptures now. How can you make them all just “disappear”?

mike

Mikeboll,

No! God is not into playing stupid parlor tricks. God is love.
God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

Actually, you have no verses for preexistence. Jesus Christ was foreordained, he is God's plan of redemption for mankind. If JC pre existed that would have been cheating on God's part.

Jesus Christ is the second Adam, if he preexisted, he would have been the first Adam.

barley

You need to got to the debate Preexisting tread, there are over 39 some Scriptures about the preexisting of Jesus…..Irene

November 10, 2010 at 3:54 am#223895

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 09 2010,07:54)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 08 2010,21:56)

Pierre,

kerwin

why is it you make flat lies??

is it your men logic ?

is it you that try to understand it the way you can see it and so leave God out,?

then i can understand you blindness.

Pierre

Kerwin really did you in, didn't he?

You have no scriptural reply, only personal attacks.

Where is your scriptural rebuttal?

barley

November 10, 2010 at 3:57 am#223896