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Hi 94,
God declared him to BE His son at the jordan.
Of course he is also the firstborn from the dead.Quote (JustAskin @ June 08 2010,08:58) Mike, you asked me was God the Father not the Father of “Jesus” before he came to earth.
Yes, he was – AND he was Father to all the other sentient created Spirits – that didn't come to earth… Thats why they are called “SONS OF GOD” Because God is their Father – Simples, yeah? “Father –> Sons” “Sons –> Father”, geddit?
Hi JA,How many of those other sons was everything created through? Jesus was the only thing directly created by God. Everything else, including these other sons, was created by God through Jesus. Yet you put Jesus in the same boat with all of these others?
And I don't even know what you are implying about Satan/Jesus. Less riddles, more plain talk please. Is there some “connection” between Jesus and Satan to which you refer?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2010,14:15) Hi 94,
God declared him to BE His son at the jordan.
Of course he is also the firstborn from the dead.
Hi Nick:The scripture states that he came by water and by blood. He was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of a woman under the law, and so he was a Son under the Law, but he was not born again from the dead until he died and was raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God.
He had not died at the Jordan, and so, how could he have been born again at that time? At this time, he was anointed and sent forth into the world to preach the gospel.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi MB,
The Spirit of Christ was before creation.
But that Spirit was only given to this man Jesus at the Jordan.Quote (JustAskin @ June 08 2010,09:18) Same with the Gospel writers – They also knew with Hindsight that God would send his [To be] Only Begotten Son.
Okay Jack Jr.
Now you only have to scripturally prove it. Just show where the Bible implies that Jesus was saying God sent His “soon to be” only begotten Son into the world.
And why, why, why do you insist on avoiding my question?
If Jesus was not the only begotten Son of God before he was raised, in what sense was he the Son of God? Created? Spawned? Spliced? Cloned? What?
Let's take it up a notch. What does this mean?
18No one has ever seen God, but the only begotten god, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
Did he also receive the title of “only begotten god” when he was raised? Okay. Then WHEN is it that Jesus made the Father known? Wasn't it during his ministry on earth? Wasn't that his main purpose while on earth? Jesus said in John 17:26,
26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
He said this BEFORE he was raised. So once again, it seems as if the words “only begotten” apply to Jesus BEFORE he was raised.
You said:
Quote Mike, why are you being resistant – you openly declare that you would change your mind if you could be shown proof … yet I know —- that you can see it yet still struggle. Why? And I think the same thing about you. It's not a slam, it's just amazing how many people can read the same scriptures, and have such totally opposite views of what they mean.
Answer the question above this time, please.
PS To You, Marty and Nick:
If Jesus became God's “only begotten Son” at the Jordan, the wording doesn't match scripture, for we know that many others had been annointed with Holy Spirit before Jesus. Others had raised the dead, healed people and performed miracles from God. There is nothing to set Jesus above the others if this is the case.
If Jesus became God's “only begotten Son” after being raised, the wording will have to change, for many others will be raised from the dead to be sons of God. I think that scripture talks of Jesus being the FIRSTborn from the dead, but not the ONLYborn from the dead. IMO
peace and love,
mikeMike,
The only Begotten Son of God who is at the side of the Father, He has made Him known.
Does the 'is at' suggest 'past' (was) or 'present' (currently)? Plug it the appropriate one…
Yes, Jesus, raised from the dead, begotten as head of all the sons of God, seated at the righthand of his Father, that one has, in his lifetime on earth, has made the Father known to us.
And in the same way 'we' too will also be begotten of God, made Sons of God and as Sons of God, and brothers with Christ, then also heirs with Christ.Please struggle on my friend…the end is not far off!
I suppose we should label people as criminals before they commit an offence because we know from hindsight that they did commit that crime.
The Criminal, who is serving time in Her Majesty's Correctional Facility, he was the one who carried out the crime.
Well, he wasn't the one who committed the crime until he committed the crime.
Jesus became the begotten son of God after he committed the act that would make him God's begotten son by revealling the Father.The begotten, one sitting down at the side of the Father, that one has revealed the Father to us.
The one that was begotten of God the Father, is now sitting at the side of Him who begot him, that same one who revealed that same Father to us.
Begotten…
Born in the flesh (Strict: said of the father as opposed to 'born' (by Mother))
Spiritually reborn: Jesus was raised into a Spiritual body. Jesushad 'emptied himself of his divinity when he came to earth in the flesh. He was 'Spiritually Adopted' by God, God is his Spiritual Father. Onesimus was 'spiritually reborn' to Paul. He was 'begotten' to Paul. Paul became his Spiritual Father.
Adoption: One taken up by another
Order: brought up by rank over another (Isaac/Ishmael…many others…)Hi Mike,
Nick Hassan, (thank you, Nick), has suggested Romans 1:4 be looked at.
Tell me what you think of it.
I thought you said that you would be willing to change your mind if you were shown the truth.
Even if Jesus was 'begotten' by God before the beginning of time Scriptures does not show that.
What Scriptures shows is that Jesus emptied himself of his previous existence as a powerful spirit creature and became man in the flesh. He was subjected to all the tests and temptations that man could ever face, and came away with flying A-star grades. Finally, he suffered death in the flesh as a sinless man for the perfect unblemished sacrifice to God and thus gained salvation for all mankind.
A sinless man 'covered' by the Holy Spirit would not be be subject to death, and for that reason God removed His Holy Spirit from Jesus in order to allow this to happen. This is the point at which Jesus cried out to his father asking why He had foresaken him…and then it was all over as he, Jesus, gave up his spirit into the safekeeping hands of his Father all the time in the full and wonderous faithful belief that his father would raise him up again.
God, then, through His Holy Spirit, raised Jesus from the dead, declared him to be His Spiritual Son due to the conquering of Sin and Death, seated him at His righthand side, at the righthand side of [His, God's] power and authority. For this reason also, God tells the angels to do obesience to him.
Why only now to do obesience…? Because he was previously NOT 'greater' than them but now is?
Who are 'the Morning Stars' and how, why and which one has 'fallen'?
Is Jesus a 'Prince', what does Scriptures say?
How many 'Princes' does Scriptures say there are, one, two, more?
If there are more than one Princes, of which Jesus is one, who are the others and were they equal in rank?If they were equal in rank then how did Jesus become top rank Prince? By being 'taken up in rank above his BRETHREN', Begotten By His Father because he showed himself more worthy than all the rest in all way, the proud glory of his Father, faithfully carrying out the exact WORD of his Father, and the dutiful and willing sacrifice, not only by his sinless death in the flesh and suffering having his Father remove His protective spirit from him, but the sacrifice of his position in heaven to become flesh, flesh that could have met corruption in death and only then faith in his Father that he would be raised up again.
Quote (JustAskin @ June 08 2010,17:31) Yes, Jesus, raised from the dead, begotten as head of all the sons of God, seated at the righthand of his Father, that one has, in his lifetime on earth, has made the Father known to us.
And in the same way 'we' too will also be begotten of God, made Sons of God and as Sons of God, and brothers with Christ, then also heirs with Christ.
Hi JA,So the “only” part is just temporary? Soon there will be many more, and then Jesus will just be “one of the many begotten sons of God”? He will no longer be the “ONLY begotten Son”?
Do you see the difference? Is Jesus ever called the ONLY begotten or born from among the dead? No, just the FIRST born from among the dead.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ June 09 2010,07:54) Nick Hassan, (thank you, Nick), has suggested Romans 1:4 be looked at. Tell me what you think of it.
I think it means exactly what it says: That now that Jesus has been granted “all power and authority”, something he apparently didn't have before, he was raised the Son WITH POWER. Jack brought this up in our debate, then he quoted some scholar who also says it has nothing to do with Jesus becoming God's Son when he was raised. I'll look it up for you.In the meantime, check out Roo's protokos thread. You've already seen that Eusebius thought Jesus to be begotten by the Father before all the ages, but now Karmarie has kindly posted some Ignatius letters that claim the same thing. Ignatius was taught by the Apostle John.
I know that men's views aren't scripture. But it proves that the understanding I originally gained from reading the Bible on my own is agreed with by “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian” of the 4th century, AND a man who studied under the Apostle John.
You said:
Quote The only Begotten Son of God who is at the side of the Father, He has made Him known. The Greek has “theos”. The only begotten god who is at the Father's side.
And WHY don't you answer my question? Was Jesus God's Son before he was raised? If yes, in what sense? If no, then who was he? You keep hinting at “morning stars” and othe sons of God, but you haven't clearly answered. Please do so.
ps It's not cool to keep saying, “I thought you said that you would be willing to change your mind if you were shown the truth.”
I have not been shown ANY scriptural truth that disproves my understanding so far.
peace and love,
mikeHi JA,
I found it. It was from something Kathi posted, not Jack.
NET © Notes
1 sn Appointed the Son-of-God-in-power. Most translations render the Greek participle ὁρισθέντος (Jorisqentos, from ὁρίζω, Jorizw) “declared” or “designated” in order to avoid the possible interpretation that Jesus was appointed the Son of God by the resurrection. However, the Greek term ὁρίζω is used eight times in the NT, and it always has the meaning “to determine, appoint.” Paul is not saying that Jesus was appointed the “Son of God by the resurrection” but “Son-of-God-in-power by the resurrection,” as indicated by the hyphenation. He was born in weakness in human flesh (with respect to the flesh, v. 3) and he was raised with power. This is similar to Matt 28:18 where Jesus told his disciples after the resurrection, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”That's what I also think of Romans 1:4.
mike
Hi MB,
No Rom 1 aligns with Acts 2 as proving by his resurrection that Jesus is the promised Son of God.[Ps2, Prov 30]Mike,
While the 'we will' is still the 'we will' then the 'only begotten' remains 'only begotten'…simples, yeah!
Mike,
I don't deal with phylosophical debate, So have no interest in what 'roo' said or what a man down the pub/bar told you.
My interest is in the Scriptures.
Everything we need to know is in the Scriptures.
Mike,
Was God Jesus' Father before being raised from the dead… I thought that was such a silly question, I thought it must have been retorical and therefore didn't require a response.
But, if you are insisting…
What did Jesus say?
Did he not claim God as his Father…'Did you not know that I must be about my Father's business?'…'My Father is greater than I'…'What of it if I say that I am the Son of God?'The latter…examine it please…
Jesus is stating to the stubborn headed Jews that 'He is not calling himself [Blaspheming] God but the Son of God! Being the Son of God does not make one God himself'
Adam, when he was created, would also have referred to God as 'his Father'…what of it? All persons who are 'from, of God, and in God' is a Son of God…and if a Son of God, then God is his Father.
Mike, why are you asking this…you know this and it is written many times in Scriptures.
In what sense…in the same sense as every other sense … All created beings who hold to the ways of God are 'Sons of God' but Jesus is the 'preeminent begotten firstborn from the dead Son of God'
Quote (JustAskin @ June 09 2010,16:20) Mike, I don't deal with phylosophical debate, So have no interest in what 'roo' said or what a man down the pub/bar told you.
My interest is in the Scriptures.
Everything we need to know is in the Scriptures.
Okay JA and NickHere are some scriptures. Tell me again how you can read these and think Jesus wasn't already the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:16 NWT
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.1. In what sense did God GIVE his only begotten Son? If Jesus wasn't his only begotten Son until he was raised, it couldn't be said that God GAVE him. Since he has been raised, he has been at the right hand of God, safe and sound. God hasn't GIVEN him to anyone since the time he died.
17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.
2. How could God have SENT FORTH his only begotten Son INTO THE WORLD if he wasn't already the only begotten Son of God?
18 He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
3. Do you see the past tense? How could anyone have already been judged because they hadn't BELIEVED in the only begotten Son of God, if he wasn't yet the only begotten Son of God? How could one be faulted for not believing in someone who didn't even exist yet?
John 1:14 NWT
14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father;4. It doesn't say, “So the Word died and was raised, and then we had a view of his glory as an only begotten son from a father”, does it?
18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.
5. I know the “is in the bosom of the Father” part gives you some doubt. But contrast the “No man has seen God” with the “only begotten god” who man HAS seen. True, they saw him after he was raised also, but that is not when Jesus “explained Him”. He “explained Him” during his ministry on earth.
1 John 4:9 NWT
9 By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.6. We gained life through Jesus by his sacrificial death. So according to this scripture, God's ALREADY only begotten Son was SENT FORTH INTO THE WORLD so that we might gain life through his death.
Now this is the scripture you think infers that Jesus was given the “title” of “only begotten Son” after he was raised.
Hebrews 1:5 NWT
5 For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”?7. These two statements don't even work for your view, for you think Jesus was already God's Son before he was raised. The first one doesn't say, “You are my ONLY BEGOTTEN Son”, just “You are my son”. But you think Jesus was God's son since his beginning, so why say that after he was raised? The “shall become” of the second one again doesn't make your point since you think Jesus was already God's son. Paul was only using these scriptures to prove that Jesus WAS the Son of God, not WHEN he became the Son of God. This is made clear in Acts 9:20,
20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.
The scripture Nick likes is:
Romans 1:4 NIV
4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed to be the Son of God with power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.8. I will defer to and agree with the Net Notes people on this one, who say: Paul is not saying that Jesus was appointed the “Son of God by the resurrection” but “Son-of-God-in-power by the resurrection,” as indicated by the hyphenation. He was born in weakness in human flesh (with respect to the flesh, v. 3) and he was raised with power.
Like I told Jack in our debate, I can not justify trashing all of these other scriptures that are so clear to side with Rom 1:4 which, to be honest, doesn't PROVE what you want it to.
JA, you have been discoursing with me in this thread in an essay sort of way. The problem is, I sometimes don't even know which part of my post you are referring to with you answers. For example, you said, “Mike, is something wrong?” I have no clue as to which post, let alone which part of it you are referring to. If you don't want to quote my points (which I'd prefer, so I know which thought you are answering), then at least please include the numbers I've put on each point when you answer.
peace and love,
mike
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