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Mike,
How could it be proven that He had a perfect nature, and that he had a perfect will which would never deny truth or His God; unless He was tested with all sorts of situations and overcame them as witnessed by many. His perfectness was put to the test and He passed with flying colors. This added to the claim that He was the Son of God, holy and without sin. A righteous man could might offer to die instead of another but it took the perfect God OF God to die for ALL mankind. An obedient righteous man couldn't die for ALL mankind.Satan probably knew the Jesus was the Messiah because the evil spirits within some of the characters knew who He was. I think that Satan tested Him because he wanted to cause the Son to doubt his perfect nature.
Just my thoughts though.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2010,12:49) Mike,
How could it be proven that He had a perfect nature, and that he had a perfect will which would never deny truth or His God; unless He was tested with all sorts of situations and overcame them as witnessed by many. His perfectness was put to the test and He passed with flying colors. This added to the claim that He was the Son of God, holy and without sin. A righteous man could might offer to die instead of another but it took the perfect God OF God to die for ALL mankind. An obedient righteous man couldn't die for ALL mankind.Satan probably knew the Jesus was the Messiah because the evil spirits within some of the characters knew who He was. I think that Satan tested Him because he wanted to cause the Son to doubt his perfect nature.
Just my thoughts though.
Did you really just say “might could”? Your Tennessee is showing!
I'm sticking with my conjecture on this one. It would have meant nothing for Jesus to NOT SIN if he COULDN'T SIN.
Stop trying to make “same nature” mean the Son is the perfect God too.
You think you're being slick, but I know you too well now!
mike
Actually Mike,
When I went to edit that 'might could' I forgot to delete the 'might' and it ended up 'could might.' I really don't talk like that I appreciate you checking up on me, lol.Can you show me scripture that says the Son was not perfect?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,13:19) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 04 2010,11:03) Mike, thank you for your post [a few pages back], I hope that in your quest to find the truth of words and meanings of words, I hope you don't become too confused.
I'm only learning myself, basics first for me, God bless you though.
Hi Shimmer,You are welcome. I was at a little family get-together this past weekend. My brother is concerned about me spending time on HN. (Of course he is one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and therefore believes the only truth needed can be found at Kingdom Hall meetings.
) He was trying to tell me what you seem to be: What we actually NEED to know about God and Jesus is very simple.So I'll explain it to you the way I did to him. Some people like to read book after book. Some people enjoy doing hours of yard work and gardening. For others, it is knowing everything there is about a particular pro sport. Some research the Civil War for years……and still want to know more.
Like you, I am just learning myself. I've been a drug addict since I was 14 (I'm 45). I read the Bible for the first time 2 years ago. But it (meaning taking in knowledge of the only true God and His Son) immediately became my passion. I can't get enough of it. I seriously want to know the meaning of every Hebrew and Greek word eventually. I want to understand God's Living Word as completely as I can. This IS my passion, and I hope I never lose it. I completely understand that what God requires of us is very little and very simple, but I thirst to know more. I don't know if you can understand that or not.
Anyway, my post was to enlighten you with the correct information. It was never meant to suggest you change your beliefs because I believe this way. But I did mean it as a warning to you about “siding” with others because their points “sound valid”.
Consider this:
KJ and WJ don't want Psalm 2:7 to really mean “begotten” because that would shoot down their trinity doctrine if Jesus had a beginning. And they will twist scriptures and tell half-truths and do anything else they can to make new students like us be swayed to their way of thinking.
And the only reason JA is ignoring what is clearly stated for all to see is because he thinks that Satan was God's REAL firstborn Son, but then messed up, so God “appointed” Jesus as the “replacement firstborn Son”. So for that selfish reason, an otherwise pretty sharp dude that I consider my brother is willing to alter the meaning of what Psalm 2:7 plainly says. He's even come up with a couple twisted supporting scriptures. He has apparently forgotten that Satan is one of the “everything” that came into existence through Jesus.
But that is nothing compared to the trinitarians. Over the last 2000 years, they have invented new definitions for Biblical words, and “developed” scriptures that can be twisted to support the other scripture they twisted to support the other scripture they twisted to support the scripture they twisted to say Jesus is God Almighty.
We'll have to give JA a few years and see what he comes up with. In the meantime, I'll continue to pray for him.
peace and love to you Shimmer,
mike
Mike, we have alot in common then, believe me ! !Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,13:19) KJ and WJ don't want Psalm 2:7 to really mean “begotten” because that would shoot down their trinity doctrine if Jesus had a beginning. And they will twist scriptures and tell half-truths and do anything else they can to make new students like us be swayed to their way of thinking.
MikeNot true at all. What about the words of Ignatius…
There is one Physician
who is possessed both of flesh and spirit;
**BOTH BORN AND UNBORN**;
GOD EXISTING IN FLESH;
true life in death;
both of Mary and of God;
first passible and then impassible,
–Jesus Christ our Lord (Letter to the Ephesians VII).**BOTH BORN AND UNBORN** **BOTH BORN AND UNBORN** **BOTH BORN AND UNBORN**[
What does “BORN AND UNBORN” mean Mikey?
The Trinity doctrine teaches that God consist of three co-equal, co-eternal persons in One God Mikey? Thats what Jack and I believe according to the scriptures. You can continue with your misrepresentations and false claims all you like but the truth stands Mikey!
WJ
WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll:
Quote What does “BORN AND UNBORN” mean Mikey? 
Keith,
Words mean whatever “Mikey” needs them to mean when he needs.
Jack
Mikeboll said:
Quote KJ and WJ don't want Psalm 2:7 to really mean “begotten” because that would shoot down their trinity doctrine if Jesus had a beginning. And they will twist scriptures and tell half-truths and do anything else they can to make new students like us be swayed to their way of thinking. Mikey does not want Acts 13:33 to mean that Jesus was begotten at His resurrection just as it says because that would shoot down his anti-trinitarian doctrine that Jesus pre-existed His being begotten. And he will twist scriptures and tell half truths and do anything else he can to make new students be swayed to his way of thinking.
the Roo
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 05 2010,09:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,13:19) KJ and WJ don't want Psalm 2:7 to really mean “begotten” because that would shoot down their trinity doctrine if Jesus had a beginning. And they will twist scriptures and tell half-truths and do anything else they can to make new students like us be swayed to their way of thinking.
MikeNot true at all. What about the words of Ignatius…
There is one Physician
who is possessed both of flesh and spirit;
**BOTH BORN AND UNBORN**;
GOD EXISTING IN FLESH;
true life in death;
both of Mary and of God;
first passible and then impassible,
–Jesus Christ our Lord (Letter to the Ephesians VII).**BOTH BORN AND UNBORN** **BOTH BORN AND UNBORN** **BOTH BORN AND UNBORN**[
What does “BORN AND UNBORN” mean Mikey?
The Trinity doctrine teaches that God consist of three co-equal, co-eternal persons in One God Mikey? Thats what Jack and I believe according to the scriptures. You can continue with your misrepresentations and false claims all you like but the truth stands Mikey!
WJ
Hello there Mr. Worshipping (the man) Jesus (when God specifically said in Deut 4:15-19 not to) 15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.
Is Jesus a man? Have people ever seen his form? Was God's Messiah “apportioned to all the nations under heaven” by his God?
If you can answer “yes” to any of these questions……you are worshipping someone or something God specifically told us not to!
WJ, why DOES Ignatius say “born and unborn”? I don't get it. But more importantly, why do you think he said Jesus was “both OF Mary and OF God”? We know in what sense Jesus was “OF Mary” – he was BORN OF HER. So the “BOTH of Mary AND of God” should tell you he thought Jesus was also BORN OF GOD.
And when you add this letter to the mix…..
But our Physician is the Only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin.
…..it seems pretty concrete that Ignatius didn't actually believe what you think he did. And you can give any trinitarian sponsored definition of begotten that you want to. Go ahead and try to fit your definition in this sentence in all the various forms of “beget”. My definition of “procreated” works just fine…….does yours?
If begotten doesn't mean “procreated” here, how is the Father the “unbegotten” and “Begettor”? And how was Jesus begotten of God before time began, but afterwards was born of Mary as a man?
Too many holes, brother. You'd do well to run from Ignatius like you do from Eusebius!
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 05 2010,10:15) Mikey does not want Acts 13:33 to mean that Jesus was begotten at His resurrection just as it says because that would shoot down his anti-trinitarian doctrine that Jesus pre-existed His being begotten. And he will twist scriptures and tell half truths and do anything else he can to make new students be swayed to his way of thinking. the Roo
Hi Jack,Acts 13:32-33 NIV
32″We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
” 'You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.God fulfilled a promise by raising up Jesus…….what promise was that? When did God ever promise us that He would someday “appoint a begotten Son”? In fact, when did He ever promise anyone He would eventually “beget a Son”?
Hmmmm……..so that must NOT be the promise that was fulfilled by raising Jesus. So why did Paul mention Psalm 2:7 then? Oh, that's right, Acts 9 tells us why,
Acts 9:20 NIV
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.Let's think this out. God had been promising a “good shepherd” and a “prince who would rule forever” and a “messiah” and a “king who would rule in righteouness”. But he never implied that it would be his only begotten Son. The Jews were awaiting another Elijah or David or Moses. (In fact, they still are because they deny that Jesus was that promised Messiah.) So Paul was telling the people that not only did God fulfill that promise of delivering a Messiah, but that this Messiah was actually the begotten Son God spoken of in Psalm 2:7. Nobody was expecting that God would send his divine Son, so Paul was exclaiming that this Jesus who was crucified WAS ACTUALLY GOD'S OWN BEGOTTEN SON.
If you disagree, show me the scripture that was fulfilled by God raising Jesus. You know, the one where God promised that he would “appoint” a begotten Son to the “position” of firstborn of all creation. And then make that scripture work in light of the fact that Jesus said “God SENT His only begotten Son INTO THE WORLD”……… and he said this BEFORE HE WAS RAISED.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (shimmer @ Aug. 05 2010,08:05) Mike, we have alot in common then, believe me ! !
We'll have to share stories sometime. But just remember this,Matthew 19:26 NIV
“…..with God all things are possible.”I'm living proof!
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2010,07:09) Can you show me scripture that says the Son was not perfect?
Now why would I look for that? Instead, could you show me one that says he was?mike
Keithi and Jacki, (Sorry, I just had to say that
)I'll post the fuller context on your question as to what born and unborn meant:
Quote Chapter VII.—Beware of false teachers.
For some are in the habit of carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, whom ye must flee as ye would wild beasts. For they are ravening dogs, who bite secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, inasmuch as they are men who can scarcely be cured. There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible,—534534 This clause is wanting in the Greek, and has been supplied from the ancient Latin version. even Jesus Christ our Lord.
But some most worthless persons are in the habit of carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, and hold opinions contrary to the doctrine of Christ, to their own destruction, and that of those who give credit to them, whom you must avoid as ye would wild beasts. For “the righteous man who avoids them is saved for ever; but the destruction of the ungodly is sudden, and a subject of rejoicing.”535535 Prov. x. 25, Prov. xi. 3. For “they are dumb dogs, that cannot bark,”536536 Isa. lvi. 10 raving mad, and biting secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, since they labour under an incurable disease. But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began,537537 Or, “before the ages.” but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.”538538 John i. 14. Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.I think this is very simple as to what Ignatius meant as to 'born and unborn' which is said in this quote as 'made and unmade.'
The context of the born and unborn is in reference to the baby in Mary. The Spirit of the baby was actually the pre-existent Jesus, the one that was incorporeal and impassable, the only begotten God before the ages and did not have to be born in Mary (because He already existed) but was sent to occupy the mortal flesh that was in Mary, the passable, mortal flesh. The passable, mortal flesh is what was born in Mary. So there you have it…Mary did not give birth to the Spirit of Jesus because the Spirit of Jesus was already alive…He was begotten before the ages. Mary gave birth to the flesh of Jesus which contained the already existing Spirit of Jesus.
Ignatius was making a case for Jesus being fully God and fully man.
I hope you can follow that
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2010,23:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2010,22:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2010,14:40) Mike,
Good question.There are verses about the Son being made perfect but I don't think that talks about His nature but more of a sufficiency. This verse claims that He is the exact representation of His nature (God's).
Heb 1:3
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
NASU
Would perfect nature beget imperfect nature?
My thought is that since Jesus could have sinned, but didn't, he wasn't exactly “perfect”. Satan's temptation would have meant nothing if he couldn't have possibly strayed. He has the ability, even now I assume, to follow his God's will, or not.What do you think?
mike
Mike,
This is a deep thinker. I say no, the Son could not sin because His nature was perfect, but the Son, nor the angels, nor man could know that (by experience that or witnessing that) until He was tested. He was full of grace and truth. Sin is a lie. He wasn't almost full of grace and truth.That doesn't mean that, in the flesh, He couldn't be tempted. He actually did feel hungry, tired, weak and the thought of turning stones into bread after fasting for 40 days was appealing, I'm sure and so was bypassing the crucifixion to become king, but He held steadfast because His will was perfect and His nature was perfect.
2 Cor 5:21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NASU
Here you go Mike…again.Hebrews 1:3
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,22:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2010,07:09) Can you show me scripture that says the Son was not perfect?
Now why would I look for that? Instead, could you show me one that says he was?mike
Mike,So, I have shown you scripture…your turn to show your scripture that He wasn't really the exact representation of the Father's nature. Is the nature of the Father perfect Mike?
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2010,14:50) 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
Hi Kathi,I think this one answers it for us,
Heb 5:8-10 NIV
8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.So you are right that he is now perfect, and I'm right that he wasn't always. And that fits in with him NOW being the “exact representation of God's nature”. And also with how he COULD HAVE sinned, but chose not to. And it also makes sense of why the Devil would have tried to tempt him in the first place.
Happy?
I am.mike
Nice try Mike but you have to look at the word “perfect” and dig a little deeper. I will help you:
The Greek word for 'perfect' is teleioo
NT:5048
teleio/w
teleioo (tel-i-o'-o); from NT:5046; to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character):KJV – consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect.
Jesus came to show us all that He would obey God and when He proved that, then He was made perfect, or His mission was fulfilled in other words.
You can try again if you would like.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2010,15:39) Nice try Mike but you have to look at the word “perfect” and dig a little deeper. I will help you: The Greek word for 'perfect' is teleioo
NT:5048
teleio/w
teleioo (tel-i-o'-o); from NT:5046; to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character):KJV – consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect.
Jesus came to show us all that He would obey God and when He proved that, then He was made perfect, or His mission was fulfilled in other words.
You can try again if you would like.
It's not that important to me Kathi. The scriptures say Jesus was tempted by Satan. This would have been a useless undertaking had Jesus not even been able to sin anyway. And on this one I would agree with Martian, barley, Gene and Marty……..what lesson did that teach us if Jesus couldn't have sinned in the first place? Why include it in scripture, and why did Jesus just not tell Satan, “You're waisting your time, dude, I was begotten perfect, so I couldn't sin if I wanted to.”?When you find a scripture that actually says Jesus was perfect, let me know. In the mean time, at least try to think about the temptation by Satan. Why is it even in scripture if not to give us an example that whatever “evil” is offering you, and no matter how “hungry” you are for it, you can resist that temptation and obey God's commands, because the man Jesus did.
mike
Hi Mike and Lu,
On the concept of Perfection,
Im going to post parts from my Thesis that is Called the State of Perfection.Quote “The word perfect is defined in secular terms as 1. “Having all the elements or qualities requisite to its nature or kind; complete.” 2. “without defect; flawless.”(1) Perfect is an adjective that describes the highest state possible of excellence in all time. Also comparable is the biblical Hebrew translation for perfect that is frequently presented as “Tamim”; which is only applied to God and “shalem” which is only used to describe a person’s character. The word in the New Testament for perfect in Greek is τελειοϛ (téleios) which means “reaching and completing the end or purpose” or “full grown adult, older, or mature” (2) There are two concepts of perfection that are applied to God and to a person. An example of the concept of perfection applied to God is in to Deuteronomy 32:4 “He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.”(3) Here both God’s attributes and works are being described as perfect. God’s attributes and character are presented to be at the highest perfect state of love, faith, justice, works and etc. Moreover, His attributes are not only at the highest level, but also without any error or contamination. His perfect attributes also relate to his eternal power and knowledge that has no limits, which also supports the concept of holy perfection. God exists in a state of perfection that makes him the most excellent being in the universe without limits of power and a character without flaw.
A second example of the concept of perfection is used with individuals who are described as perfect such as Noah (Genesis 6:9)4 and Job (Job 1:1)5. The term perfect is used differently when referring to individuals and not to God. In places where the term perfect is applied to individuals it is not used to describe one's perfect works or perfect state, but one's ability to have a perfect heart and love towards God. In these two references the word perfect is being used differently than in Dt. 32:4 because Man who is imperfect by nature and in works has a fallen from grace through the original sin cannot have the ability to be perfect in all things. Instead the bible teaches that these men had a “perfect heart” in a sense of having a committed relationship with God almighty, a mighty desire to seek Him and to follow His ways.
These two concepts can also unite into a complete perfection through a relationship that involves the perfect most excellent God with man’s perfect heart whose desire and love is set on the most high. These two can only be united through a mediator. The best example of a mediator between one who is perfect and imperfect is Jesus Christ, who clarifies in Mt. 5:48 “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven perfect.”(6) also Jn. 17:21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”(7) The two concepts are united through Jesus Christ who shows that there is a completed link between the perfect father and the perfect heart of a believer. Jn. 17:23 “I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one…” (8) The satisfaction of God’s wholeness and the desires of a believer’s heart are made through a perfect relationship in Jesus Christ our Lord and savior. We are made one in the highest bond of perfection through love and desire that has no limits of time or distance. With this definition we can begin to see the importance in understanding the state of perfection in God’s essence in relationship with a believer’s life”My whole thesis is about Perfection.
Here is my point with understanding what Perfection is.
Jesus Christ is Perfect at all times, even though he as in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, he was not Sin, therefore he was never disobediant.
His Heart, Mind, and Strength was set on God, which was followed by Obediance.
This love, this Relationship to being open to say YES to God while all MANKIND says NO, to God is the perfection in us.
Jesus Christ was in one accord, one with God.
In total agreement and in total submittance.In other words Jesus Christ was Perfect from beginning to End.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2010,15:42) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 05 2010,08:05) Mike, we have alot in common then, believe me ! !
We'll have to share stories sometime. But just remember this,Matthew 19:26 NIV
“…..with God all things are possible.”I'm living proof!
peace and love,
mike
Ha, that's good! thanks Mike,Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2010,15:13) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2010,14:50) 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
Hi Kathi,I think this one answers it for us,
Heb 5:8-10 NIV
8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.So you are right that he is now perfect, and I'm right that he wasn't always. And that fits in with him NOW being the “exact representation of God's nature”. And also with how he COULD HAVE sinned, but chose not to. And it also makes sense of why the Devil would have tried to tempt him in the first place.
Happy?
I am.mike
First off Mike, it's important that God became man, and SUBJECTED himself to sin…even tho, being God he cannot sin…by becoming a man he subjected himself to sin. This means that as a man he was capable of sin, but being god incapable…seemingly paradoxical, but nonetheless impossible…that is why we see he never sinned…this was important in reconciling mankind back to God, because God is showing us…that if we perfect our minds and souls and bring it to him, we too can escape the grip of sin…it was easy for God, and of course still hard for us…but that is why he also went through the extra measures of not only dying for us, but equipping us with The Holy Spirit.
Second off,
You're wrong. Kathi's right.
The Word of God is perfect.
Jesus being The Word of God was and is perfect.
The question is, what was Jesus' role to begin with, as the son of God?
———
To die for mankind to redeem us back to YHVH The Father.
That was his role.
So his role as God was not completed until he died and was ressurected.
———
So this verse, referencing that he was MADE PERFECT was an act of accomplishing his ROLE as the son of man.
Not in reference to his perfect person.
———-
Can you call a triangle a perfect circle?
No
Different things can be perfect in their own ways.
Jesus was certainly perfect as the person of God…in all his ways and righteousness…
but he wasn't perfected in his role until it was completed.
This explaination seems to also be in line with the original hebrew/greek text.
The be made perfect is the greek: teleioō
Here are the english translations for the word: teleioō
1) to make perfect, complete
a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end
2) to complete (perfect)
a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full
b) to be found perfect
3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed
4) to accomplish
a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event
1) of the prophecies of the scriptures
——–Thankyou, and goodjob Kathi on recognizing God's truths.
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