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I have made this challenge to T8 because he has decided to take the position that God is in a box and cannot act outside that box which T8 calls Christianity.
I hope he accepts the debate there will be no rules other than to not make personal attacks.
This debate section of the site is the only legitimate purpose to focus on distinct views but even the debate sections are seperate. Anyway, I would like to know when God became a Christian?
It seems to me that you seem to think that God follows Christ and must act according to the will of Christ, can God act outside of the will of Christ?
BD please state if t8 is the only one that can participate or if others can?
I say this because others my join in and it may not be your intention.
Thanks.
Quote (heaven @ Dec. 19 2009,21:01) BD please state if t8 is the only one that can participate or if others can? I say this because others my join in and it may not be your intention.
Thanks.
Yes, in this debate it is only for T8 I will most likely use another thread for specific people and perhaps even one where others specific groups can only participate i.e “trinitarians”, “oneness”Hi BD.
Thank you for your challenge. Here is my response:
I bet that you cannot find on this board where I have taught that God works only through Christianity and nothing else. In fact I teach the opposite because I am well aware of much error taught in the name of Christianity.
In light of that statement, my understanding goes something like this:
Enoch, Elijah, Abraham, Daniel, and others were not Christians. Many people today who belong to God are also not Christian. Many still haven't even heard the gospel and I would assume that King David never heard it either.
So my teaching is this:
Jesus is the truth and the way. Christianity is not the truth and the way, rather an interpretation of Jesus teachings that is not 100% correct. Most of Christianity today believes in the Trinity as the foundation of their faith. I do not. I believe that Jesus never taught the Trinity doctrine and many other teachings and traditions that you find today.
The only reason that you are excluded (from being called a believer) is not because of your age, gender, race, or even your religion, but because you teach against the Christ as the son of God, and therefore by definition of that you exclude yourself.
A true believer doesn't teach against Christ as the son of God and the messiah. You may give lip service to Jesus being the messiah, but your true leader is Mohamad. Mohammed teaches against Jesus true identity by saying that Jesus is NOT the son of God. You obviously follow Mohamed and this teaching.
Here is what Peter declared and what Jesus enforced:
Matthew 16:16-19
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Jesus even built his church on this truth and he said that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
Here is what the Koran says:
“The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God's apostle . . . God is but one God. GOD FORBID THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON!” (4:171)“Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack…” (19:88)
“They say: 'God forbid that He Himself should beget a son!' ” (19:29-)
“They say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom . . .' ” (17:111)
This is in direct contrast to what Jesus taught. It is also in direct contrast to what Paul and John taught:
Acts 9:20
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.Romans 1:4
and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord..2 Corinthians 1:19
For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by me and Silas and Timothy, was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.”Hebrews 4:14
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.1 John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.1 John 5:10
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.So I have rejected much of traditional Christianity based on the fact that it teaches against the truth that there is one God and his son. Therefore it stands to reason that I am also going to reject Islam based on the same reason. i.e., that it is an interpreted version of Christ & God that doesn't agree with the written truth.
So to me, if you believe in God and his son, then I am open to teaching and correcting as a believer to another. If you do not believe that the Christ is the son of God, then I teach and correct as a believer to a non-believer.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 22 2009,14:45) Hi BD. Thank you for your challenge. Here is my response:
I bet that you cannot find on this board where I have taught that God works only through Christianity and nothing else. In fact I teach the opposite because I am well aware of much error taught in the name of Christianity.
In light of that statement, my understanding goes something like this:
Enoch, Elijah, Abraham, Daniel, and others were not Christians. Many people today who belong to God are also not Christian. Many still haven't even heard the gospel and I would assume that King David never heard it either.
So my teaching is this:
Jesus is the truth and the way. Christianity is not the truth and the way, rather an interpretation of Jesus teachings that is not 100% correct. Most of Christianity today believes in the Trinity as the foundation of their faith. I do not. I believe that Jesus never taught the Trinity doctrine and many other teachings and traditions that you find today.
The only reason that you are excluded (from being called a believer) is not because of your age, gender, race, or even your religion, but because you teach against the Christ as the son of God, and therefore by definition of that you exclude yourself.
A true believer doesn't teach against Christ as the son of God and the messiah. You may give lip service to Jesus being the messiah, but your true leader is Mohamad. Mohammed teaches against Jesus true identity by saying that Jesus is NOT the son of God. You obviously follow Mohamed and this teaching.
Here is what Peter declared and what Jesus enforced:
Matthew 16:16-19
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Jesus even built his church on this truth and he said that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
Here is what the Koran says:
“The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God's apostle . . . God is but one God. GOD FORBID THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON!” (4:171)“Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack…” (19:88)
“They say: 'God forbid that He Himself should beget a son!' ” (19:29-)
“They say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom . . .' ” (17:111)
This is in direct contrast to what Jesus taught. It is also in direct contrast to what Paul and John taught:
Acts 9:20
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.Romans 1:4
and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord..2 Corinthians 1:19
For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by me and Silas and Timothy, was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.”Hebrews 4:14
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.1 John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.1 John 5:10
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.So I have rejected much of traditional Christianity based on the fact that it teaches against the truth that there is one God and his son. Therefore it stands to reason that I am also going to reject Islam based on the same reason. i.e., that it is an interpreted version of Christ & God that doesn't agree with the written truth.
So to me, if you believe in God and his son, then I am open to teaching and correcting as a believer to another. If you do not believe that the Christ is the son of God, then I teach and correct as a believer to a non-believer.
I appreciate your response.Was Jesus created or Pro-created?
I want you to really understand that I would have no dispute with Jesus being the son of God but you need to understand
why the Quran clarifies this point. Consider this:That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Genesis 6:1-3Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:5-7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:6-8Now, where did these sons come from? were they created or Procreated? was Jesus one of these sons who became flesh?
You cannot deny these sons, “sonship” can you? But the Quran explains that these angels are created spirits and the Quran also says that Jesus was a spirit that proceeded from God and His Word
Jesus existed in the form of God (divine nature) and emptied himself and took on human flesh.
He then humbled himself to the point of death and God raised him from the dead and he is seated to the right hand of the majesty on high with the same glory he had with the Father before the world begun.It is also written that we will be like him and carnal will put on spiritual and that it also says that what we will become is somewhat of a mystery but that we will be like him. In addition, it is written that we can partake of divine nature, so if that is possible with us, then how much more the son of the Most High God.
As far as timing goes, it is written that God made all things for him and through him. It is written that all that is created was created through him and for him and that his own received him not.
The mystery of Christ is of course a mystery. But we are given tantalizing clues as to his origins. One of those clues is that he originated in ancient times. Another that he was before Abraham. Still another says that the Word became flesh and the apostles beheld is glory that of the only begotten of the Father.
Given that nothing that was made was made without him, it is hard to say that he was originally made or created, but that he existed with divine nature and partook of flesh only to return to the glory he had with the Father before the world began.
He is not only called first-born of the dead, but he is also first-born of/over ALL creation.
So I do not believe that he was created, but that he existed and then partook of flesh and lived among us, as it is written.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 22 2009,18:45) Jesus existed in the form of God (divine nature) and emptied himself and took on human flesh.
He then humbled himself to the point of death and God raised him from the dead and he is seated to the right hand of the majesty on high with the same glory he had with the Father before the world begun.It is also written that we will be like him and carnal will put on spiritual and that it also says that what we will become is somewhat of a mystery but that we will be like him. In addition, it is written that we can partake of divine nature, so if that is possible with us, then how much more the son of the Most High God.
As far as timing goes, it is written that God made all things for him and through him. It is written that all that is created was created through him and for him and that his own received him not.
The mystery of Christ is of course a mystery. But we are given tantalizing clues as to his origins. One of those clues is that he originated in ancient times. Another that he was before Abraham. Still another says that the Word became flesh and the apostles beheld is glory that of the only begotten of the Father.
Given that nothing that was made was made without him, it is hard to say that he was originally made or created, but that he existed with divine nature and partook of flesh only to return to the glory he had with the Father before the world began.
He is not only called first-born of the dead, but he is also first-born of/over ALL creation.
So I do not believe that he was created, but that he existed and then partook of flesh and lived among us, as it is written.
How is it you didn't even answer my questions?It is worth noting that you managed to express yourself regarding Jesus without calling him “son” and that's all I have been saying.
Jesus existing in the form of God does not make him God it simply would make him a spirit and if we will be like him we will be as the Angels are because Jesus said:
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mark 12:24-26Angels have power and glory given to them by God, right?
So you believe that God did not create Jesus and if he did not create Jesus then Jesus could not be his “son” as the Quran says:
(1) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
( An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)To say that Jesus is not “son” does nothing to diminish his stature and I agree, he is sitting at the right hand of God.
I didn't dodge your question, I gave you the full picture of what I believe so that I could not be mis-quoted or mis-understood.
Jesus is the son of the living God. He is the only begotten of the Father, full of truth.
He has first place in all things and is the prototype.
Think of what the word prototype means.
I have told you that Jesus said that he existed before Abraham and that he existed in the form of God which I take to mean having the nature of God.
If he came from God then you would expect that he had the nature of God.
I also told you that God created all things for him and through him and that all that was created was created through him.
How much clearer do I need to be?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 23 2009,04:08) To say that Jesus is not “son” does nothing to diminish his stature
It diminishes your stature.Your only options for a favorable outcome for you is to say that these scriptures are false, mis-translated, or that Paul, John, Peter, and Jesus were false teachers. But if these are truly scripture, then it is you that is diminished. If you come against the truth, then the truth will win.
As these scriptures are written, they condemn your stance that Jesus is not the son of God. It is that simple. There is no point trying to wriggle out of it. Scripture says he is the son of God and you say he isn't. That is the issue.
Acts 9:20
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.Romans 1:4
and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord..2 Corinthians 1:19
For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by me and Silas and Timothy, was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.”Hebrews 4:14
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.1 John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.1 John 5:10
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.Matthew 16:16-19
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2009,07:32) I didn't dodge your question, I gave you the full picture of what I believe so that I could not be mis-quoted or mis-understood. Jesus is the son of the living God. He is the only begotten of the Father, full of truth.
He has first place in all things and is the prototype.
Think of what the word prototype means.
I have told you that Jesus said that he existed before Abraham and that he existed in the form of God which I take to mean having the nature of God.
If he came from God then you would expect that he had the nature of God.
I also told you that God created all things for him and through him and that all that was created was created through him.
How much clearer do I need to be?
If he is the only begotten of the Father then why are the angels called “sons of God”?T8, I gave you the verses of this all the angels were before Abraham were they not?
Are the angels the sons of God or is the scripture wrong?
To be in the Form of something does not mean to be the nature of something, is a mannequin the same as a Human?
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2009,07:40) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 23 2009,04:08) To say that Jesus is not “son” does nothing to diminish his stature
It diminishes your stature.Your only options for a favorable outcome for you is to say that these scriptures are false, mis-translated, or that Paul, John, Peter, and Jesus were false teachers. But if these are truly scripture, then it is you that is diminished. If you come against the truth, then the truth will win.
As these scriptures are written, they condemn your stance that Jesus is not the son of God. It is that simple. There is no point trying to wriggle out of it. Scripture says he is the son of God and you say he isn't. That is the issue.
Acts 9:20
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.Romans 1:4
and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord..2 Corinthians 1:19
For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by me and Silas and Timothy, was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.”Hebrews 4:14
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.1 John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.1 John 5:10
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.Matthew 16:16-19
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
You still miss the point it doesn't matter if you say that Jesus is the son of God because according to those same scriptures All the angels are the sons of God and what's more we are gods. Do you believe this?Don't pick and choose with the Bible T8
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Genesis 6:1-3Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:5-7I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psalm 82:5-7Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
John 10:33-35So are these scriptures true or are they just not clear or what? You tell me, are you a god and if you say no, who is wrong you or the scriptures?
What is so hard about seeing that scripture teaching that Jesus is the son of God and you saying that he isn't.
That is what is happening here.
Your stance about old angels does not change that fact.
Ye are gods is not the same as he is God.
Therefore, we are sons is not the same as he is the son.
Likewise, we are men (adam) is not the same as he is Adam.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 23 2009,09:04) To be in the Form of something does not mean to be the nature of something, is a mannequin the same as a Human?
I am in human form. My form is human and my nature is human.Thankfully I have access to divine nature and one day I will have a spiritual body.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2009,09:21) What is so hard about seeing that scripture teaching that Jesus is the son of God and you saying that he isn't. That is what is happening here.
Your stance about old angels does not change that fact.
The scripture teaches that angels are the sons of God, doesn't it?Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2009,09:28) Ye are gods is not the same as he is God. Therefore, we are sons is not the same as he is the son.
Likewise, we are men (adam) is not the same as he is Adam.
We are sons is plural he is son is singular, what other difference are you taking from that that is not written?I am glad that you brought up Adam though because
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Luke 3:37-38There you have it the scripture calling Adam, The son of God.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:44-46I thought Christ Jesus was first in all things and yet it clearly says he is the LAST ADAM.
So if Adam was the Son of God how could the Last Adam be the first Son of God?
I am just trying to show you why the Quran was sent down by God and you should adhere to it, otherwise you will have to believe in what is solely written in the Bible and you can't and I will prove that to you.
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