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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 30 2008,15:53) Laurel………I have both read and studied the scriptures for many many years and even studied the Torah with the Jews and Rabbi's as well as being under the law and Obey the Torah and all the Holy Days and keeping all the clean and unclean food laws as well a tithing's, for seven years or so. I truly know the Torah as well or better than most. I have studied scripture for over 55 years I am no novice at understanding scriptures. I have even had an article published in the Acts Magazine against the TRINITY. I am not saying this to brag, only to show you i am not a novice when it comes to God's Word,. What bothers me is people who think they can talk down to others or condescend on them. For you to say what will it take for you to read the Book and believe it , i find insulting to me< I ll put my knowledge of scriptures to your any day you or anyone else here wants. said in love…………….gene
Greetings Gene……”said in love” I don't think so….sounds defensive to me and I might add somewhat condesending…
I have been studying the word in its entirety of which torah is part..Having said that….I learn something new every time and perhaps someday God will make things very clear and before me will be the truth….I don't think that, what we think we know of God and his word is meant to be measured….Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 02 2008,22:33) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 30 2008,15:53) Laurel………I have both read and studied the scriptures for many many years and even studied the Torah with the Jews and Rabbi's as well as being under the law and Obey the Torah and all the Holy Days and keeping all the clean and unclean food laws as well a tithing's, for seven years or so. I truly know the Torah as well or better than most. I have studied scripture for over 55 years I am no novice at understanding scriptures. I have even had an article published in the Acts Magazine against the TRINITY. I am not saying this to brag, only to show you i am not a novice when it comes to God's Word,. What bothers me is people who think they can talk down to others or condescend on them. For you to say what will it take for you to read the Book and believe it , i find insulting to me< I ll put my knowledge of scriptures to your any day you or anyone else here wants. said in love…………….gene
Greetings Gene……”said in love” I don't think so….sounds defensive to me and I might add somewhat condesending…
I have been studying the word in its entirety of which torah is part..Having said that….I learn something new every time and perhaps someday God will make things very clear and before me will be the truth….I don't think that, what we think we know of God and his word is meant to be measured….
You are so right to think that we can't measure what God reveales to us. It is a fact IMO that some have truths in some area's and others in another. My Husband for instant has reat knowledge in Prophecy, which I have not. On the other hand I do understand about tje trinity, preexsistimg of Jesus and which I find very impotant the New Covenant. We are under Jesus Blood. Judging others is not to wise. IMO
Luke 22:20
Love IreneQuote (david @ Dec. 02 2008,18:02) Quote Oh by the way David..you mention essential truths.. No, you mentioned “essential truths.” I spoke of and quoted “your essential truths.”
Quote but you and I both know there are a plethora of beliefs “unique to JW's” If there weren't how would they be different from the vast majority of “Christians.” Just as the earliest Christians were different in attitudes, conduct and beliefs from just about everyone, so too, JW's are today. You got us.
Quote Quote So every post on every forum under the screen name “David” we shall attribute to you then…fair? get real “David”
First, if I am wrong, you should say so. You should have said so before. And if I am wrong, I am sorry, but why not tell me so, now or before?
I noticed you didn’t actually deny it. And your reasoning is flawed for these reasons:1. “David” is rather generic. “Dirtyknections” is not. If there are two “dirtyknections” on the web (and there aren’t more than two) then it is interesting that they both live in Florida. (Is it someone else from your music group?)
2. In the “Intro” thread, I said on page 9:
“I must say, your knowledge of MP's in Orlando is extensive. But, I guess that's the past. Maybe it's not even you. Maybe you stole the name from someone else in Florida, or they stole it from you. But those posts would definitely fit with “cus we filthy” which was you.”Your next response was:
“Wow…lol…David…you are really doing some serious intel on me…lol…”And this response, saying I was doing “serious intel on me” suggested that I was doing intel on you, not someone else. If that wasn’t you, why let me believe it was, by just ignoring what would have been an outrageously wrong comment?
3. As well, I then said in my next post to you (in the intro thread):
“But you're not “filthy” anymore right, or at least, it wouldn't be something you'd be proud of? At one time, you were proud of your “debauchery” but that is no more, or at least, something that you would no more be proud of. So why the name?”If this wasn’t you, it was like we were having a conversation about someone else, why didn’t you suggest that back then, instead of saying, I’m doing serious intel on you?
If I’m wrong, then I owe you a serious apology. But your previous responses didn’t indicate I was wrong.
To me, and others, your very name indicates that.“I think your users name is not Christian like. Who would ever want to be dirty. We as Christians want to be washed and made clean. So I hope you will change your attitude, it is rather a selfish one. Just because you have a Website with that name. “–Seek and you will find, “quick intro” thread.
Another reason it seems to be you. In another website, you say:
“Here is a quick rundown of what caused my crisis of conscience (yeah it was a good read). Blood issue, Alt Service, Oral/ Anal Sex. . . .”
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/7/158726/1.ashxIf it was a different “dirtyknections” on those websites talking about Orlando Massage parlors and various forms of sex, then I’m sorry. But again, this would be another coincidence, given your fixation with oral/anal sex.
ok…here you go…YOU ARE WRONG!!!!
Your attempts to assisinate my character are nothing more than cruel and lying…this what you have in your heart
Proverbs 6:18-20… 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.and maybe the forum should do this to you..
Deuteronomy 19:17-19….17 the two men involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against his brother, 19 then do to him as he intended to do to his brother. You must purge the evil from among you.
For those who want the other side of the coin to JW…you know the side “David” won't discuss..
http://www.watchtowercomments.com
http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk
Oh yeah..doesn't this describe the way “David” always attacks me:
ad hominem attack: An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: “argument to the man”, “argument against the man”) consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.[/B]
This is directly out of the watchtower….
“David”
explain this view of blood from the bible if you will…
See…. http://www.ajwrb.org/
for an in-depth examination of the JW view on blood… David is leaving out 3/4 of what he REALLY believes…
start with this page…
Hmm… I wonder what some of you would do if you were there when this speech was given:
John 6:53-59
53 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink . 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”
NIVThis was a REALLY pagan thing to say… The Pagans would eat the blood of their kings in order to gain strength….Jesus had a lot of followers when he said this- they soon left.
John 6:66-69
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
NIVJust provoking thought, that's all.
Yes, I know that Messiah was not being literal here.
The old covenant points to the new covenant and the law of the Spirit fulfills the torah.
Blood sacrifices.. “the life of the flesh is in the blood”… “It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin”…
The wages of sin is death. You sin, the atonement is the cost of life. Adam and Eve were covered with animal skin when they sinned because something had to die in order to cover for their sin. (their sin was “covered.” Not removed. Hence, “It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin”…) They were dead, spiritually. Eternally separated from their creator. (JN 17:3)
enter, animal sacrifice and the Day of Atonement. This was a picture of what was to come. It also showed them how horrribly bloody, violent, disgusting, and selfish their sin was. Blood was sprinkled everywhere. The Holy of Holies was not some shiny, sparkly clean place. There was probably dried crusty bloood everywhere and most likely it reeked of dead flesh.
Also, the passover lamb. They kept it as a pet in their house for a week before it was slaughtered and the blood was put on their doorpost. (not exactly sanitary and beautiful.) They knew that there was a price for their freedom.
Anyway, all this to say that animal blood sacrifice was a picture, not the cure. Man sinned, man must die. This is why only a perfect, sinless man could pay the price.
Eating His flesh and drinking his blood means that we are taking on His life… feeding on Him. Identifying with His death, buriel and resurrection. Feeding on what He feeds on..
John 4:34
34 “My food ,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.
NIVgoing to where He is:
Heb 13:13
13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp , bearing the disgrace he bore.
NIVPutting Him on:
Rom 13:14-14:1
14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.NIV
Laying down our lives:
John 15:13-15
13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
NIV1 John 3:16
16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
NIVI guess it's all summed up here:
Phil 3:10-11
10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
NIVHe said that if we did not eat His flesh and drink His blood, we have no life in us. The life of the flesh is in the blood. In our flesh, we are dead. If we partake of Messiah's blood we are fueled by His life, and the only thing that fueled Him was His Father and doing His Father's will.
Mark 10:18
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good — except God alone
NIVJohn 10:37-39
37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it , even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
NIVDk………..> i agree with you the blood thing the JW's practice is a great EVIL and cost innocent lives and they should cease from the Cult practice and try to understand the difference of the Spiritual and Physical symbolisms, written in scriptures.
love to you and yours………………..gene
Quote they should cease from the Cult practice and try to understand the difference of the Spiritual and Physical symbolisms, written in scriptures. Gene, in the Hebrew scriptures, was the command not to eat blood a symbolism?
So why think the command to abstain from blood in the NT is a symbolism?Anthony, if that really wasn't you and there's another person calling themselves “dirtyknections” I'm sorry. But before I had stated that, and you only said I was doing serious intel on you.
The one other person on the internet who calls themselves “dirtyknections” (not anthony) was bragging about all of his fornication.
I still cannot see how or why you've chosen to call yourself this name that others would think have extremely bad connotations.
Even if some in your culture consider it 'cool' is it a Christian image you want to represent?Quote David is leaving out 3/4 of what he REALLY believes… And you are only looking at half of 1 percent.
“In 1994, the Red Cross recommends that Canadians who received blood transfusions during the 1980s be tested for Hepatitis C.”
http://www.mapleleafweb.com/old….al.html(I'm Canadian and in the 80's I had an operation and was given blood. I of course did not contract HiV or hepatitis C)
“In the 1970s and 80s, the medical community became aware of two new blood-based infectious diseases – Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV), and a new form of hepatitis (later called Hepatitis C). The Canadian Red Cross, however, does not begin screening Canada’s blood system for the new diseases until the late 1980s and early 1990s. By then, thousands of Canadians who had received blood transfusions during the 1980s had contracted HIV or Hepatitis C.”
“The Commission estimates over 28,000 people contracted Hepatitis C from blood transfusions between 1986 and 1990.”
“More than 1,000 people were infected with HIV from tainted blood in Canada in the 1980s”
http://www.canada.com/victori….k=51188“The last twenty years have witnessed a surge of interest in bloodless surgery, for a variety of reasons. Jehovah's Witnesses reject blood transfusions on religious grounds; others may be concerned about bloodborne diseases, such as hepatitis and AIDS.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodless_surgeryACTS 15:28-29
“For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!””Really, very very few of the transfusions performed on people were ever required for the person to live. Jehovah's Witnesses have educated doctors on alternative methods. It is very rare for a person to actually need blood and usually when in those circumstances, even when given blood, the chances are not great that they will live.
“Bloodless medicine used to be geared toward people with concerns about transfusions. But studies showing that skipping transfusions results in faster recoveries — and therefore lower hospital costs — has more medical leaders saying the practice should be for everybody. Maine's largest hospitals are the latest to join a movement among medical facilities to turn no-transfusion medicine from an offering by some of its doctors into a standard of care.”
http://healthierhealth.blogspot.com/2008….on.htmlIN 1996 the Royal College of Surgeons of England published a booklet called the Code of Practice for the Surgical Management of Jehovah's Witnesses. In that booklet the surgeons note:
“The dangers of blood transfusion make it desirable to consider alternative measures whenever possible.”
http://www.watchtower.org/e/19980822/article_01.htmThere are dangers in transfusions and dangers in not being transfused.
“Bloodless medicine and surgery, motivated in part by the doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses, is moving far beyond the needs of a spiritual society into operating rooms nationwide.”–AHA NEWS, published by the American Hospital Association
Why many doctors are promoting bloodless surgery was a subject featured in the 1997 fall edition of a supplement of Time magazine. “Fear of AIDS is only one reason,” the article said. The article reported particularly on the work being done at Englewood Hospital's New Jersey Institute for the Advancement of Bloodless Medicine and Surgery, in Englewood, New Jersey.
Time observed: “The institute is the leader among more than 50 in the U.S. that now practice bloodless surgery. Without using any donor blood at all, they offer a wide range of surgical procedures that would ordinarily include transfusions, along with techniques that dramatically reduce, or virtually eliminate, blood loss.”
http://www.watchtower.org/e/19980822/article_01.htm“Jehovah's Witnesses . . . went to a lot of effort to try to find people who would operate without blood. Some of the results of those studies found that they did better than was expected, [than] people who got blood.”–Dr. Edwin Deitch, medical director for the bloodless program at University Hospital, Newark, New Jersey
“Blood can turn down the immune system and cause problems with postoperative infection; it can increase the risk of someone having recurring cancer, so blood, although it was good in certain circumstances, turns out to have a bad side.”–Dr. Edwin Deitch, medical director for the bloodless program at University Hospital, Newark, New Jersey
OF course, people aren't educated on the other side of the story. They only see the fraction of a percentage that makes the news.
According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, more than 75,000 doctors already practice bloodless surgery in the U.S. –Time, magazine
http://www.time.com/time/reports/heroes/bloodless3.htmlIn Canada, JW's used to have to sign a piece of paper saying they wouldn't hold the hospital liable because of not using blood.
Now, interestingly, people have to sign a piece of paper saying they won't hold the hospital liable when they do use blood.
David …….. Yes the commandment not to eat blood was symbolic, it God way of teaching the children of Israel not to take a mans life into there own hands. The physical part was to constantly remind them of that, The were carnal and need carnal commandments to guide them , are the JW carnal and need Carnal commandments also to remind them not to take another life.
David…….> Did the commission tell you of the millions of lives that were saved by blood transfusions, the ones who contracted Hiv or type C Hepatitis can be treated and still live. your argument is Just plainly wrong, and cost many many lives and i believe JW should be held responsible for teaching that false Doctrine to anyone. People are gullible especially where religions come in. If your “Elders ” told you some weird teaching to drink arsenic laced cool aid, would you do it. Common sense tells you to save Life is better then to let it die when it in your power to save it.
David …….this issue of not allowing Blood transfusions alone should be enough to make you shake the dust off you shoes and leave that organization, before it comes down to a family member of your own Brother. This thing about it being a test of Faith is pure BS.
peace to you………………gene
Quote (dirtyknections @ Dec. 03 2008,02:37) This is directly out of the watchtower….
“David”
explain this view of blood from the bible if you will…
See…. http://www.ajwrb.org/
for an in-depth examination of the JW view on blood… David is leaving out 3/4 of what he REALLY believes…
start with this page…
Again..David..I askknowing that what you REALLY believe is stated above…is it biblical…you are skating the issue……
This picture from my above post is DIRECTLY OUT OF THE WATCHTOWER
David explain this “basic position on blood” from the bible
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