- This topic is empty.
- Posts
TO ALL,
The Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4 says, “Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God is one Being.”
We may legitimately infer that YHWH our God in the Shema is to be identified as Christ because verse 16 warns the people not to tempt YHWH as they tempted Him at Massah. According to Paul it was CHRIST whom the people tempted (1 Corinthians 10:9). Therefore, Christ is YHWH our God in the Shema.
The NWT translators omitted the name “Christ” from 1 Corinthians 10:9 and inserted the name “Jehovah” in its place. They give no explanation for it in their marginal notes according to the 1984 edition I possess. This is a blatant corruption of the word of God. Yet in the preface they claim that the NWT is a “word for word” translation. This is a false claim because the Greek text they used says “Christ.” All the Greek texts say “Christ” except one other which says “kurios” (Lord). Since the JW's say that the Tetragrammaton does not translate to “kurios,” then “kurios” cannot be substituted with the name “Jehovah.”
Again, the text they used says “Christ” but they omitted it and substituted “Jehovah” in its place.
thinker
Hi Jack,
I don't find the word 'being' in the Hebrew text. YHVH is written twice in the Hebrew text. I don't think your translation is the best.I think the better translation would be either:
Hear, Israel: Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one:
or
Hear, Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;I don't know Hebrew grammar so is Jehovah the subject of a second phrase or the direct object of the sentence. Do you know?
Blessings,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Sep. 08 2011,06:25) Hi Jack,
I don't find the word 'being' in the Hebrew text. YHVH is written twice in the Hebrew text. I don't think your translation is the best.I think the better translation would be either:
Hear, Israel: Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one:
or
Hear, Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;I don't know Hebrew grammar so is Jehovah the subject of a second phrase or the direct object of the sentence. Do you know?
Blessings,
Kathi
Kathi,The root of the word signifies existence and becoming (TWOT).
“I shall become who I am becoming” (Ex. 3:14).
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
It makes more sense to translate the second use of the word as “being.” God wanted Israel to know that He alone was the Being in contradiscintion to all other beings.
Jack
Jack,
So when you say “Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God is one Being.” Are you indicating that YHVH is one who is? Or are you saying that YHVH is one person? Or one existence?I am not sure what you mean when you say 'one Being.' Can you help me here to understand you?
Thanks,
KathiQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ Sep. 08 2011,11:45) TO ALL, The Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4 says, “Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God is one Being.”
We may legitimately infer that YHWH our God in the Shema is to be identified as Christ because verse 16 warns the people not to tempt YHWH as they tempted Him at Massah. According to Paul it was CHRIST whom the people tempted (1 Corinthians 10:9). Therefore, Christ is YHWH our God in the Shema.
The NWT translators omitted the name “Christ” from 1 Corinthians 10:9 and inserted the name “Jehovah” in its place. They give no explanation for it in their marginal notes according to the 1984 edition I possess. This is a blatant corruption of the word of God. Yet in the preface they claim that the NWT is a “word for word” translation. This is a false claim because the Greek text they used says “Christ.” All the Greek texts say “Christ” except one other which says “kurios” (Lord). Since the JW's say that the Tetragrammaton does not translate to “kurios,” then “kurios” cannot be substituted with the name “Jehovah.”
Again, the text they used says “Christ” but they omitted it and substituted “Jehovah” in its place.
thinker
kjQuote HWH as they tempted Him at Massah. According to Paul it was CHRIST whom the people tempted (1 Corinthians 10:9). Therefore, Christ is YHWH our God in the Shema. you are a dreamer ,you see thing that are not there,
1Co 10:9 We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.
1Co 10:10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
1Co 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
1Co 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!
1Co 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.Pierre
Interesting Jack,
Quote Again, the text they used says “Christ” but they omitted it and substituted “Jehovah” in its place. I wonder why they did that.
Is it your opinion that the Father is not called YHVH but only the Son is?
Kathi
all
it seems that KOO.J and Kathi are on a trip of their own ,with a new personal translation of the scriptures complete with their personal interpretation ,I wander when they finish what it looks like,?D
Pierre:
Hi Jack,
The JW scholars, who remain anonymous by choice, translated the NWT from many Greek mss. They did not use just one. And according to NETNotes: Χριστόν (Criston, “Christ”) is attested in the majority of mss, including many important witnesses of the Alexandrian (Ì46 1739 1881) and Western (D F G) texttypes, and other mss and versions (Ψ latt sy co). On the other hand, some of the important Alexandrian witnesses have κύριον (kurion, “Lord”; א B C P 33 104 1175 al). A few mss (A 81 pc) have θεόν (qeon, “God”).
So your claim that “only one” ms has “kurios” is inaccurate. There are many that have “kurios”, and even some that have “theos”.
Do you think it's possible that the JW's translated that verse from one of the mss that have “kurios” or “theos”?
And while it is a fact that the tetragammaton does NOT translate into “kurios”, the NWT scholars state from the beginning that they've rendered the word “Lord” and “God” in the NT as “Jehovah” every time it was clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jehovah was the “Lord” or God” being mentioned.
So this is not quite as sinister as you're making it out to be, is it?
Exodus 23
20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.Even if the original ms could be proven to say “Christ”, what would that prove? That Christ was the angel OF Jehovah who was sent ahead of the Israelites? And that the Israelites DID test this vice regent OF God?
I don't think Jesus being the angel OF God that the Israelites tested in the wilderness would be of any help to your doctrine, would it Jack?
Anyway, I'm glad you made this thread. Did you know that you singlehandedly shot down two of Kathi's beliefs without even trying? The “One Being” claim takes serious issue with her belief that Jehovah is TWO Beings who are BOTH God Almighty. (That's right Jack, Kathi admittedly has TWO separate Almighty Gods that she worships.)
And your “I shall become who I am becoming” translation of “YHWH” shoots down a recent “I AM” claim she made about John 8:24.
Thanks Jack!
Hey Jack,
I just noticed that Wescott and Hort is one of the mss with “kurios”, not “Christos”. I know that this was the main text from which the NWT was translated. This is from the Introduction to the NWT:
GREEK TEXT: The basic Greek text used for the preparation of the English text of the Christian Greek Scripture portion of the New World Translation was The New Testament in the Original Greek, by Westcott and Hort (originally published in 1881). The Greek texts of Nestle, Bover, Merk and others were also considered.
Just so you know. The basic Greek text they used is one of the ones with “kurios” in 1 Cor 10:9. And they apparently think the “kurios” mentioned in this scripture is Jehovah. I tend to agree with them.
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 08 2011,08:50) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Sep. 08 2011,11:45) TO ALL, The Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4 says, “Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God is one Being.”
We may legitimately infer that YHWH our God in the Shema is to be identified as Christ because verse 16 warns the people not to tempt YHWH as they tempted Him at Massah. According to Paul it was CHRIST whom the people tempted (1 Corinthians 10:9). Therefore, Christ is YHWH our God in the Shema.
The NWT translators omitted the name “Christ” from 1 Corinthians 10:9 and inserted the name “Jehovah” in its place. They give no explanation for it in their marginal notes according to the 1984 edition I possess. This is a blatant corruption of the word of God. Yet in the preface they claim that the NWT is a “word for word” translation. This is a false claim because the Greek text they used says “Christ.” All the Greek texts say “Christ” except one other which says “kurios” (Lord). Since the JW's say that the Tetragrammaton does not translate to “kurios,” then “kurios” cannot be substituted with the name “Jehovah.”
Again, the text they used says “Christ” but they omitted it and substituted “Jehovah” in its place.
thinker
kjQuote HWH as they tempted Him at Massah. According to Paul it was CHRIST whom the people tempted (1 Corinthians 10:9). Therefore, Christ is YHWH our God in the Shema. you are a dreamer ,you see thing that are not there,
1Co 10:9 We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.
1Co 10:10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
1Co 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
1Co 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!
1Co 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.Pierre
Paul said that it was CHRIST the people tempted (1 Cor. 10:9). Westcott and Hort say that it was the Lord (kurios) the people tempted. Since Paul had just said in 8:6 that there is only one Kurios (Christ), then it is still Christ the people tempted at Massah in Deuteronomy 6:16.The JW's say that the Tetragrammaton does not translate to kurios. Therefore, the name Jehovah cannot replace the word kurios and the NWT translators lied through their teeth no mmatter how you slice it. They were as unscholarly as they were liars. Only one of them had a high school diploma and none had formal training in Greek and Hebrew. Yet the JW's hang their hats on liars and clowns.
If you do not confess Christ and your Lord and your God you will be punished. I am just trying to rescue you.
KJ
kj
Quote Paul said that it was CHRIST the people tempted (1 Cor. 10:9). Westcott and Hort say that it was the Lord (kurios) the people tempted. Since Paul had just said in 8:6 that there is only one Kurios (Christ), then it is still Christ the people tempted at Massah in Deuteronomy 6:16. The JW's say that the Tetragrammaton does not translate to kurios. Therefore, the name Jehovah cannot replace the word kurios and the NWT translators lied through their teeth no mmatter how you slice it. They were as unscholarly as they were liars. Only one of them had a high school diploma and none had formal training in Greek and Hebrew. Yet the JW's hang their hats on liars and clowns.
If you do not confess Christ and your Lord and your God you will be punished. I am just trying to rescue you.
KJ
you a trinitarian save me with your lies and deceit from truth
what you say is false God also his the GOD of GODS but also LORD of LORDS ,Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings,
but you know that but your believes do not care for truth ,religion is your bacon not truth of God,
Pierre
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Sep. 08 2011,17:58) The JW's say that the Tetragrammaton does not translate to kurios. Therefore, the name Jehovah cannot replace the word kurios and the NWT translators lied through their teeth no mmatter how you slice it.
From the Introduction of the NWT:
RESTORING THE DIVINE NAME
Throughout the centuries many translations of parts or of all the Christian Greek Scriptures have been made into Hebrew. Such translations, designated in this work by “J” with a superior number, have restored the divine name to the inspired Christian Greek Scriptures in various places. They have restored the divine name not only when coming upon quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures but also in other places where the texts called for such restoration.
To know where the divine name was replaced by the Greek words Κύριος and Θεός, we have determined where the inspired Christian writers have quoted verses, passages and expressions from the Hebrew Scriptures and then we have referred back to the Hebrew text to ascertain whether the divine name appears there. In this way we determined the identity to give Ky′ri‧os and The‧os′ and the personality with which to clothe them.
To avoid overstepping the bounds of a translator into the field of exegesis, we have been most cautious about rendering the divine name in the Christian Greek Scriptures, always carefully considering the Hebrew Scriptures as a background. We have looked for agreement from the Hebrew versions to confirm our rendering. Thus, out of the 237 times that we have rendered the divine name in the body of our translation, there is only one instance where we have no agreement from the Hebrew versions. But in this one instance, namely, 1Co 7:17, the context and related texts strongly support rendering the divine name.—See 1Co 7:17 ftn, “Jehovah.”There is no lying going on here, Jack. Why do you hate the NWT so much? Could you show me a scripture they translated wrong? Keith tried to do this once, and before he walked away from the debate, all we found was Gen 1:2, where the Hebrew says “the Spirit of God”, and the NWT has “God's active force”. They do add this footnote: “And . . . active force (spirit).” Heb., weru′ach. Besides being translated “spirit,” ru′ach is also translated “wind” and by other words that denote an invisible active force. See 3:8 ftn, “Breezy part”; 8:1 ftn
Do YOU know of a scripture that the NWT has wrong?Btw, I was just reading the 1 Cor 10:9 commetaries of Gill, Clarke and Barnes on Biblos.com . While all three of them acknowledge the “Lord” possibility, they all prefer the “Christ” reading. But, (are you ready for this?), they all prefer “Christ” because they think Jesus was the angel OF Jehovah that went before the Israelites.
Hmmm………….I though I just came up with that by myself. Jack, an angel OF God is not the God he is the angel OF.
But, (yep, it gets even better), Barnes made a comment that I hadn't even thought of. He pointed out “that the term “Christ” has acquired with us a signification somewhat different from that which it originally had in the New Testament. We use it as 'a proper name,' applied to Jesus of Nazareth. But it is to be remembered that it is the mere Greek word for the Hebrew 'Anointed,' or the 'Messiah;'……..”
So Paul could have just as easily been saying not to tempt ANY anointed one of God. He actually could have been talking about Moses!
1 Corinthians 10
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was THE ANOINTED OF GOD. (ie: MOSES)9 We should not test THE ANOINTED OF GOD, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.
See Jack? It was into MOSES that they were baptized. And it was MOSES who was the spiritual rock from which they drank in the wilderness. That rock was MOSES, THE ANOINTED.
So, where does that bit of info from Barnes leave us? If the word is “kurios”, then it could refer to Jesus – as an angel OF God…………or it could refer to God Himself.
If the word is “christos”, then it could refer to Jesus – as an angel OF God……………….or it could refer to Moses – as a different anointed one of God.
Unfortunately for you, there is not a possible way for this scripture to say Jesus IS God. Because even IF it refers to him, it does so as an angel OF his God.
Good thread, Jack! For two years now, the most damning evidence AGAINST the Trinity Doctrine that I've found has come directly from posts that YOU'VE made!
Keep it up, buddy. You're our ace in the hole.Quote The JW's say that the Tetragrammaton does not translate to kurios. Therefore, the name Jehovah cannot replace the word kurios and the NWT translators lied through their teeth no mmatter how you slice it. I don't think the NWT translators ever said that “Jehovah” was “replacing” “Lord.”
Rather, they consistently refer to it as a restoration. (not replacing)
Many people, if they looked at the Hebrew scriptures in the NWT would similarly think that they “replaced” “Lord” and “God” with “Jehovah.” We of course know that the tetragrammaton was originally there, but most people do not know this. Similarly, they have reason to believe (and I know I've discussed this at length in another thread) that the use of God's name didn't suddenly end. God's servants were using his name in the Hebrew. Why would they quite in the Greek? My argument has always been that I personally would find it bizarre to quote scriptures from the Hebrew and replace God's name with “Lord” when making a quotation. It was the superstitious Jews who took God's name out, not the Christians. And while there are many many quotes from the Hebrew, of course, this can't explain all the references to “Jehovah.” We'd have to go through them.
David! Some translations do change Jehovah into LORD in all capital letters…. In the footnotes of our Ryie Study Bible, it states, that the translators didn't want to take Gods name in vain and used LORD instead….so does this one
New International Version (NIV)
Psa 83:18 Let them know that you, whose name is the LORD–that you alone are the Most High over all the earthNew International Version (NIV)
Psa 83:18 Let them know that you, whose name is the LORD–that you alone are the Most High over all the earthand this one
English Standard Version (ESV)
Psa 83:18 that they may know that you alone, whose name is the LORD, are the Most High over all
the earth.and this one
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Psa 83:18 That they may know that You alone, whose name is the LORD, Are the Most High over all the earth.Revised Standard Version (RSV) uses LORD
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Psa 83:18 And they know that Thou — (Thy name [is] Jehovah — by Thyself,) [Art] the Most High over all the earth!New King James Version (NKJV) uses LORD
So you can see that some will use Jehovah and some don;t….Irene
Hi All :
Point of view;
Heaven ;
where God our Father is;
was; and shall be;
Always.
Christ was there in the beginning;
as The annointed one;
Jesus's name never exsisted then ;
in the beginning.
Christ came to man;
by the Spirit of God;
unto a woman ;
who born a son
Called Jesus ;
to save the souls;
and to defeat Satan at his best;
He finished it ;
and returned to the right hand of our Father. ;
When all is finished
when Gog and Magog
fight their last battle with Jehovah God
Our Father
Then they'll only be heaven on the new earth;
A point of view I live by.
Rev.20:7-9Hi Happyman,
I'm happy that you're happy with the KJV. But do you know of any particular scripture the NWT translated to say something the Greek or Hebrew words cannot possibly be saying? Do you know of any “BLATANT CORRUPTION” by the NWT to further their own personal doctrines?
mike
Hi Mike,
I can name one: adding the indefinite article to John 1:1,
as this would indicate there are two different Gods.
Did Jesus ever say he was a god: yes or no?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgNow that's what I'm talking about Ed! Someone finally putting their money where their mouth is! Good for you!
In beginning, the logos was. And the logos was with THE theos, and the logos was theos.
That's how the Greek of John 1:1 breaks down, which leaves two points for you to ponder:
1. The word “WITH” in this sentence makes it very clear that TWO persons are being discussed – not just one.
2. The two beings who are called “theos” are distinguished from each other by the definite article “the”. One of them is “THE theos”, while the other is just “theos”.
Now Ed, will you acknowledge the fact that the indefinite article “a” was not used in the Greek language? YES or NO?
Will you acknowledge the fact that over 6000 times in the scriptures, English scholars have added the word “a” into the scriptures because the meaning in English depends upon it? YES or NO?
More to come after you answer these first two questions.
mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
