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Hey Nick
So you believe in eternal sonship then? If so then please give me your understanding…
If he already was, and then he all ready is and cannot be like me in everyway. If he began when the Power of the the most High overshadowed Mary then I can see how he was made like us. ie like the first Adam… Adam was of the dust. I struggle to see how if you believe Jesus was from eternity as the Son, how he could take off immortality and become immortal and why does it state that only God has immortaltiy in himself. Jesus was given immortality when he was raised from death – I am pretty sure that there is no evidence to say that once you have immortality that you can shed it. That does not give me hope to know that immortality can be shed that easy…
Revelation reveals Jesus as: the one who lives, was dead and behold is alive forevermore. [that speaks to me of a beginning – a now till eternity] however when refering in Revelation to God the Father it says, He IS and WAS and IS to come… that speaks to me of eternity.
In your view how was Jesus made in every way like us if he is actually an already existing being? For me that means he only used a body but he was never really like me in every way. If he existed already, was his memory wiped out for he learned wisdom, and grew in wisdom and in favour with God and man… if so does that mean we too will have to start afresh when we receive immortal life – he learned through the things he suffered. I am not too sure I can get my head around how he was made in every way like us, if he already came as a pre-exsitent being who then really simply inhabited a body…
Were does it state Jesus was the eternal son? I cannot find one scripture that states this. Can you let me know if you have one.
Where does it state that he was born twice – once as the eternal existent Son and once as the son of Mary?
There seems to be scripture for both his pre-existence and also his birth or [origin] being his entrance on this earth… [Matthew 1].
Pre-existence in the mind of God maybe, and then made manifest in these last days. 1 Peter 1:20.
To believe he always existed is to cause confusion and make it difficult to see how he could firstly shed immortality which means life forever, so you cant shed that, and secondly how it would not make him like us at all. Non of us pre-existed, non of us previously had immortality and became mortal. He is the second Adam afterall. The first Adam was not pre-existent but came into being by the work of Yahweh, His spirit [Ruach] was breathed into the dust and Adam existed – that same spirit that hovered over the waters in Genesis 1 and the same holy spirit and power from on High that overshadowed Mary. The suffering servant was called from the womb, from the matrix of his mother, God made mention of his name. Isaiah 49:1. He said He is ascending to my God and your God, my Lord and your Lord.
I find it easier to believe that he was the son of God at his conception in Mary as that is all i can find to this idea of sonship. And work from there to understand some of the things that Jesus and others have said that seem to see him as a pre existant being already with the Father.
John 1, I see the word [plan] was with God and God is His word, and that word [plan], like everything else God speaks into being became flesh. Not the Word [you say is the eternal Son – I think] becomming flesh.
I gotta run along to church. will try expound a little more later on.
Hi A7,
Thank you for the thoughtful post.
I believe the Son is from eternity but was begotten from the Father in the beginning.Is Christ like to us?
Yes. He has a body and soul and a spirit all shown in scripture.
That makes him man just like us.
He was tempted in every way we were.
He suffered pain and even tasted death for us-exactly as we all do.
He got hungry and seemingly enjoyed a glass of wine or two. He loved friends but enjoyed solitude too. Sounds all pretty similar.Was he identifiably different to other men? No.
They saw him as a son of Mary and Joseph and Is 53 tells us he was no great looker either.Some thought he was mad, some told the physician to heal himself so he seemed ordinary enough.
He showed no special abilities or aptitude as a child and he had to learn the hard way through parental discipline just as we do.
He kept growing in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and men living in subjection to his parents Lk 2 tells us.
He trained as a carpenter, perhaps at the side of Joseph, such that the carpenter living in Capernaum seemed just an ordinary man.
Then he was fillled with The Spirit of God at his baptism by John and the fireworks began. He showed the nature and power of God to all who needed it and spread the good news of salvation.
Are all humans alike? No we are male and female, rich and poor strong and weak, short and tall, black and brown etc. Differences are expected among us yet there is only one breed of men.
Like all of us he was as a vessel as to his soul and that is invisible to men, except those with spiritual vision like John the baptist.
And vessels do differ.
2Tim 2 20f
” Now in every large house there are not only gold and silver vessels but also vessels of wood and of earthen ware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore is any one cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the master, prepared for every good work. Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart”We cannot make ourselves what we are not. Only Jesus had a vessel of gold as a son of God Himself. Our vessels are only of earthenware. His vessel was from heaven, ours from the earth. But a silver vessel is no better at holding wine that a pottery cup. The treasure for all is inside the vessel, not in the nature of the vessel itself and that means we too can hold the Spirit of God if we repent and are washed in baptism.
2 cor 4.7
” But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not ourselves “
Like us Christ had no powers or knowledge of his own. He had to start afresh, emptied of power and glory[phil2.5f]. He himself healed nobody. The Father used him as an instrument in all ways.He ascribed all power and knowledge and even the words he spoke to the Father within him as Spirit.Hi A7,
Immortality only applies to the body part of all of us.
God is spirit.
Jesus physically died but his new heavenly body is immortal.
1 Tim 6.16f
“I charge you in the presence of God who gives life to all things…..He who is the blessed and only Soveriegn, the king of kings and Lord of Lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light”God alone possesses immortality.
It originates in Him and is given by Him to His Son and to whom He chooses. Under God Jesus is also king of kings and Lord of Lords, but he submits to God, his Father and his God.
Hi,
Biblical unitarianism, in my view, is a lifeless religion that can only see Jesus according to the flesh.Even demons knew he was the Son of God.
The Jews wanted to kill him because they too knew he was claiming to be the Son of God, and that to them meant he was claiming equality even with God, which he explained to them he was not. They knew the Son of God from Ps 2 and Prov 30 to be more than just a man.
44. Because he implored that, if it were possible, the bitter cup might pass from him, adding, “Nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt,” Matt 26:39.
Hi,
Here are two quotes from the Biblical Unitarian site that are inconsistent with each other.
One says Jesus had no will of his own and the other quotes his speaking of his own will in the Garden.Hi,
Continuing from the BU site
“He is the only man who was ever born of a virgin (Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35). God put a perfect seed in the womb of Mary so that Jesus would be born without the sin nature that every other human being inherited from the First Adam. Therefore, Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God (John 3:16) and the Son of Man (John 5:27).”Here is another teaching that lacks biblical basis. “The perfect seed placed in Mary” has no basis in the Word and disagrees with the fact of conception, the same by which John the baptist was derived, which occurred in Mary by the Spirit and the ovum of Mary.
Thus he truly became one of us and of the dust and not just a new and superior imitation of men.
to continue from the UB site
“He is the only man who will restore on a new earth the Paradise that the First Adam lost (1 Cor. 15:24-28). As “the Last Adam,” Jesus was God’s Contingency Plan to salvage His original plan that Adam’s disobedience thwarted, that is, a perfect race of people living forever on a perfect earth. Amen.”Scripture did not say that the creation of man was “perfect”
Gen 1.31
“And God saw all that He had made and behold it was VERY GOOD”If God had meant “perfect” He would have had it written so and to change the word is not appropriate.
So to build on such a premise is to build on sand.cont
“The Bible is the Word of God. It tells us about the life and death — and resurrected life — of the greatest man who ever lived. His name is Jesus Christ. For centuries men have debated the identity of this unique man. Was he God? Was he a “mere” man? How did he do the things he did? “This is the message about Jesus in the biblical unitarian site.a GREAT MAN.
Who agrees ?cont
“Biblically, a Christian is someone who is “saved.” This is also known as being “born again.” At your first birth—when you were born into this world–you were born with a sin nature. This is a major reason why people sin. When you confess Christ as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, you become a Christian, i.e., you get “born again” and become a member of the family of God.”This is the BU idea of being born again… seems more of the world than the bible.
cont,
Here is the BU view of judgement for those outside of the salvation offered by God.“What happens to me if I do not accept God’s gift of eternal life?
The Bible says that “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). Jesus Christ will judge every person who has ever lived. Those who have accepted his free gift of salvation will receive everlasting life. Nevertheless, they will be judged to determine exactly what they will get in the next life, being rewarded or disciplined according to what their deeds in this life deserve (2 Cor. 5:10; Col. 3:23-25; 1 Thess. 4:6; 2 Tim. 2:12; 1 John 2:28).”Now all these verses come from books written to the saved. They apply to “the church of God” [2Cor 1] “brothers” [1Thess.]They apply to the “little children”[ 1Jn ]of God, those who endure [2Tim]who are rewarded.
Why would anyone relate these verses to the unsaved?
Nick,
In my Minister Certification class tonight we discussed how Jesus was not affected by Mary's imperfection as his mother. The premise was that in O.T. law, the SEED was what carried the curse or blessing. God would pronounce a blessing on the man and his seed.
Now we also notice in Genesis God speaking about emnity between the serpent and the WOMAN's seed. I'm still sorting through that but if Hebrew lineage is through the woman, that is the child is Jewish because of the mother's ethnicity, this would make sense.
Semmy
Hi Semmy,
In Rev 12 surely the woman is Israel and her seed or offspring is Christ and those in him. Is Eve in Gen 3.13 a symbol for Israel and the parellel being the conflict between the Body of Christ and the accuser of the brethren?Hey Nick,
FANTASTIC posts regarding BU theology! I never could agree with their limited views of Christ only having his beginning in the womb of Mary. There are so many scriptures they would have to ignore such as John 17:5, “Glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”
They claim Christ existed in God's foreknowledge JUST LIKE US. Yeah right. Simply existing in God's foreknowledge would not afford you access to His presence or being glorified. I know I wasn't!
Anyway, regarding your point here:
“Hi Semmy,
In Rev 12 surely the woman is Israel and her seed or offspring is Christ and those in him. Is Eve in Gen 3.13 a symbol for Israel and the parellel being the conflict between the Body of Christ and the accuser of the brethren? “Nick you nailed it! Most people don't realize that Revelation is almost a reverse mirror image of Genesis. This is just one of many parallels. Also God's “woman” who was given wings to flee to the desert from the serpent's reach, the birth of the Messiah who was then taken up to heaven. Simply a repeat of what is continuing to be an attack against the remaider of the woman's seed, those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Revelation 12:14-17)
And what was that testimony? Who did the apostles testify that Jesus was? What did our Lord Jesus say of himself? That he is the SON OF GOD.
Great notes here. I've got homework from last night's class so I'd better go!
Semmy
Hi semmy,
“And what was that testimony? Who did the apostles testify that Jesus was? What did our Lord Jesus say of himself? That he is the SON OF GOD.”
Amen. Amen
We also know from Rev 19.10
“For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”
thus tying together the Spirit of Christ in the prophets as in 1Cor 10.4 and 1Peter 1.11Is the taking up of the child the first resurrection/rapture?
What's up Nick,
Taking a break here.
Nick, this was brilliant:
We also know from Rev 19.10
“For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”
thus tying together the Spirit of Christ in the prophets as in 1Cor 10.4 and 1Peter 1.11Speaking of the nation of Israel, “…for they drank from the same spiritual rock that accompanied them and that rock was Christ. (1 Cor 10:4) Jesus was the fulfillment and reality of the prophecy. They looked to the coming Messiah for the restoration of all things.
Regarding that the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy, ” trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (1Peter 1:11) This is profound because latter on in verse 12 it says, “They were preaching the Gospel to you by the holy spirit sent from heaven and even ANGELS long to look into these things.” You'd think THEY would know!
Your question: “Is the taking up of the child the first resurrection/rapture?”
I would say yes because the child represents the newly born sons of God,
being those of the church age, purchased by the blood of Christ who will
be co-rulers with him for 1,000 years. Christ's bride.Ugh, Well, I've got to write a sermon for this Sunday's service. I am BEAT! Signing off for now…
Semmy
Hi semmy,
Men get confused about “Seed”
Gen 1.11-12
Seed is planted
but
Seed is also “fruit” of that planting unto food or further planting.
The seed of woman is fruit.Hi,
Here is the BU version of the Word with the Father in the beginning.
To them he was only a thought of God or plan of God and not an expressed begotten Word.
They see the past like the future to come, in a wierd twisting of scripture.
So when Jesus said he had something it meant he saw what God had planned for him and he had not actually had it yet!
Flesh and what we see is all that is real to them it seems, as far as men are viewed, and Christ is only a man to them.“1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God.
2. Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began, and would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth, and they assert that this proves he had access to the mind and memory of his “God nature.””
Hi,
Those who see through the complicated folly of trinity
often seem to be attracted to the simplistic BU view of man
as
body \spirit only and Christ
as
just another man.Out of the frying pan….
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