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We can also distinguish one of them as God Almighty, and the other as His Lamb, Son, Servant, Priest, Mediator, Prophet, etc.
Btw, I left the “s” out inadverently. I meant to say, And don't waste mine with silly comparisons like “Jesus is called good, and God is called good, therefore Jesus must BE God.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2012,22:10) Both are involved in creation I was involved in the creation of my son. God created him THROUGH me, just as God created all things THROUGH His Servant Jesus. It doesn't mean Jesus is the God who brought him forth anymore than it means I'm the God who brought me forth.
Both are involved in the act required for salvation of all mankind
So are we. WE must believe in order to be saved, right? Plus, many others have been saviors that God SENT to save others. Are they all God? Or just Jesus?
Both are called Lord of lords
That's probably because they are both Lords who are the lord of other lords. I'm sure there are many other Lords of lords too. King David was the Lord of Joab, who was called “lord” by his soldiers. That makes David also a “Lord of lords”, right? Is David God Almighty?
Both are called the First and the Last
They both are the first and the last in certain respects. Adam was the first and the last “original man created”.
Both are in the beginning
But only one of them is said to not even have a beginning, while the other's beginning is from ancient times.
Both are on the highest throne
No, the Highest One GRANTS for the less high one to sit on HIS throne for a little while. That less high one has a lower throne of his own that some will be GRANTED to sit on with him also. It won't make those ones BE him, so why would it make Jesus BE the God whose throne it was GRANTED for him to sit on?
Both are necessary to know for salvation
And apparently so is the Apostle John. Without his book, we wouldn't even KNOW that it is necessary to know both of them. And I guess we could say the same about those who translated John's gospel throughout the ages into different languages. But is John God Almighty? Neither is Jesus.
Kathi, can you not even see that our ONE God Almighty SENT His servant Jesus as His sacrificial Lamb?
Mike,
You are being ridiculous my friend.
you say:Quote Both are involved in creation
You are not involved in ALL creation. They are.Quote
Both are involved in the act required for salvation of all mankindYou are not required for the salvation of all mankind, just your own.
Quote Both are called Lord of lords No one else is called 'Lord of lords' that also has an everlasting kingdom and dominion over all creation.
Quote
Both are called the First and the LastNo one else is called or calls himself 'the first and the last.'
Quote Both are in the beginning The Son's 'going FORTH' was from ancient times, but He had to exist BEFORE He could go forth. Both existed forever, that is what 'First and Last,' Alpha and Omega' mean to the Jews when applied to heavenly beings.
Quote
Both are on the highest throneThis doesn't make them both God the Father, obviously. This shows that there are two on the throne of the highest position. One is still the Father and one is still the Son.
Quote
Both are necessary to know for salvationYou just need to know the Father and the Son for salvation. All scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Knowing John is not a requirement for salvation.
Quote
Kathi, can you not even see that our ONE God Almighty SENT His servant Jesus as His sacrificial Lamb?One of the two members of the unity sent the other. I have been saying just that. One serves the other within the unity…it is by the nature of the relationship of Father to Son.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2012,12:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 26 2012,10:16) BTW, I have to be more clear with you there is a difference between a Unity and a Number count. If there is ONE God it does not mean there is one group or type it means. How many? Count 1 stop. To say me and my father is one is a statement of Unity to say that my Father is the ONLY True God is a statement of number quantity. “ONLY”
So I will ask you right now right here in front of God and men is The Father THE ONLY TRUE GOD as Jesus declared?
It is written:1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
To say that there is only one true God and that is the Father, and then leave it at that would be like leaving off the second half of the statement that Paul made above.
Jehovah is both God AND Lord.
I asked you clearly and sincerely is THE Father THE ONLY TRUE GOD as Jesus said?Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2012,22:45) We can also distinguish one of them as God Almighty, and the other as His Lamb, Son, Servant, Priest, Mediator, Prophet, etc. Btw, I left the “s” out inadverently. I meant to say, And don't waste mine with silly comparisons like “Jesus is called good, and God is called good, therefore Jesus must BE God.”
We can distinguish the God of gods from the Lord of lords too. Yet both are Jehovah.BD,
I answered you clearly and sincerely. Jesus used the same approach with satan. It was appropriate for Him to use and I follow Him.“It is written…”
Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2012,14:55) BD,
I answered you clearly and sincerely. Jesus used the same approach with satan. It was appropriate for Him to use and I follow Him.“It is written…”
IS The Father THE ONLY TRUE GOD as it is written and declared by JESUS CHRIST?Is it written in the Bible the quotation from JESUS CHRIST: John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.Is this statement true that the Father is THEE ONLY TRUE GOD?
BD,
John 17:3 is telling us that eternal life comes from knowing both. It tells us that the Father is the only true God which goes along with the title “God of gods” and the one God, the Father. Jehovah is more than the God of gods, though. Jehovah is also the Lord of lords and we are told that the Lamb is the 'Lord of lords.'In another context, Jesus is called God. They are both called God in some contexts. In another context, one is called God and one is called Lord. While each goes by God or Lord in yet another context. Bottom line, they are both our supreme authority.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2012,15:13) BD,
John 17:3 is telling us that eternal life comes from knowing both. It tells us that the Father is the only true God which goes along with the title “God of gods” and the one God, the Father. Jehovah is more than the God of gods, though. Jehovah is also the Lord of lords and we are told that the Lamb is the 'Lord of lords.'In another context, Jesus is called God. They are both called God in some contexts. In another context, one is called God and one is called Lord. While each goes by God or Lord in yet another context. Bottom line, they are both our supreme authority.
KathiI asked you was JESUS CHRIST correct in saying that the FATHER was THE ONLY TRUE GOD?
Jesus said this not me, if there is only ONE TRUE GOD what does that make all other usages of the word “god”? It makes them untrue or metaphorical. Moses was called god by God too
Exodus 7:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.You simply do not understand what Jesus said when he said:
John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Those who have the spirit of God in them were called “god” not that they were actually “GOD”
Genesis 41:38
And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?Jesus was a man approved by God
Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:Notice it doesn't use the word “Father” it uses the word GOD and says that GOD did by him(Jesus) i.e. not God.
There is no way you can deny the truth of this post you can only try very hard to weasel out of it but God gave me the proper scripture to give you so denying it at this point has something to do with stubborness
Matthew 13:14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:It would be so ground breaking on this site for someone to just say “okay, I understand now”
BD,
you asked:Quote I asked you was JESUS CHRIST correct in saying that the FATHER was THE ONLY TRUE GOD? Jesus was saying that it was important to KNOW the Father and He referred to Him as the only true God and to also KNOW Himself, Jesus for our salvation.
Now, what I KNOW of the Father is that HE beget a literal Son. What I KNOW of the Son is that He is a literal only begotten son of God the Father.
In Jesus' prayer to the Father, He is not teaching the Father who He is and this passage should not be used as a teaching of who the Father is. Jesus is acknowledging the Father as the only true God as opposed to all the false gods of the world that were worshiped all over the place. There were temples devoted to false gods and goddess' all over the place, BD. Jesus was acknowledging HIS FATHER as the only true God in contrast to the false ones in the world. Jesus knew that He was a literal SON of the only true God, that He came OUT OF HIM and He was in unity with that only true God as head over those that the Father had given Him. This prayer was not intended to say the Father is the only true God and Jesus was merely a metaphorical God. No, that is not saying that at all.Jesus came to reveal the Father in other contexts but that one was a prayer. He wasn't revealing the Father to the Father. Jesus was merely exalting His Father as the only true God amongst a world that was believing in so many that were not true.
What Jesus is praying for is that the world may truly KNOW the Father AND the Son…not just know about them.
When you KNOW them, you will realize that we have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ, not just one God the Father. The OT tells us that Jehovah is both God of gods and Lord of lords.
Quote You simply do not understand what Jesus said when he said: John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Those who have the spirit of God in them were called “god” not that they were actually “GOD”
Well, we understand this differently, that is for sure!
The Pharisees were about to stone Jesus for saying that He was the Son of God, which you have already figured out would make Him God also, a Begotten God. Jesus response was that making Himself out to be God is certainly more appropriate since He really is the Son of God. He was telling the Pharisees that other Jews were called theos and they died and are gone and obviously not truly gods but only gods metaphorically. Were they stoned for this? Yet the Pharisees were about to stone Jesus because He said that He was the Son of God. How much more He had a claim to that title than the Jews that were these judges.
If the Pharisees believed that the God of Abraham had a Son and that He was right in front of them, they would have prostrated themselves before Him, but instead they could not believe that He was the Son of the God of Abraham so they thought they were being faithful to the God of Abraham by stoning this 'imposter' and later crucifying Him. According to the Pharisees, this man walking around doing miracles was from satan and not their precious God of Abraham.
After Jesus' resurrection, the apostles had to educate the people who Jesus was and is. With some audiences, they started with the more obvious…He was a man in whom God in heaven, the God of creation, did miracles by, not a man doing miracles by satan or another god. The next truth to learn was that He was the actual Messiah that was promised and the Son of David and even more than that, He was/is the Son of God and not just a man. The next step is to know/realize what that means…to actually be the literal Son of God. Thomas realized this in the upper room when he called Him, “my Lord and my God.”
The apostles taught precept upon precept starting with correcting the audience who had just crucified this man because they did not believe that God was at work in Him but that He was a pretender. If the Jews and Gentiles had understood that the God of creation was empowering this man, they would not have crucified Him. Do you understand this, BD? That was the starting point for the gospel of Christ…to help people believe that this man was really from the God of creation. When people accepted Him as from the God of creation, they could accept more about Him. They could accept His teachings as if they were from God and some thought He was a prophet only. When they accepted He was from the God of creation and that He spoke the words of God as a prophet, then they could accept more…that He was the promised Messiah, the Son of David. When they accepted that, then they could accept further truth…that He was the literal Son of God also and existed before Abraham and then even was involved in the creation of the world and their Savior and Lord and God with the Father which was more of the teaching that the Holy Spirit opened their mind to after the resurrection.
This is why there are passages in the NT that speak about Jesus who was a man approved of God, doing miracles which God did by Him…That was step one, not the final teaching of who Jesus was. Many have not passed step one or two and still today consider Jesus as a prophet. Some consider Him as the Messiah and Son of David but many of the Jews still have not received this truth. They are going to have to 'get' that before more truth…that He is the actual ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God and thus the (not a) ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD, their Lord, who knows the Father and is in the bosom of the Father and came to reveal the Father and fulfill the law, and be a sacrifice for the sin of mankind…and then to reign for ever and ever WITH the Father on the highest throne as our Lord and Savior.
you have the right verse here but still don't see that it speaks about you:
Quote
Matthew 13:14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:It would be so ground breaking on this site for someone to just say “okay, I understand now”
It takes letting go of our false understanding to gain true understanding. The apostles had to start with teaching those that crucified Jesus that He was actually a man who God did miracles by. If they had really come to know that, there would never have been a crucifixion and they would have continued to learn and come to the realization of Him as their Lord and Begotten God who was, who is, and forever more will be. There did need to be a crucifixion, the shedding of blood and death, to pay the price for our sins though, and fulfill prophecy.
Take care!
Enough rabbit trails and huge posts, Kathi. Let's keep it simple, scriptural, and anger free.
Kathi,
1. How could Jesus have “BECOME as much superior to the angels as the name he has INHERITED is superior to theirs”?
2. The one and only “Most High God” has a Son named Jesus. Does Jesus have a Son named Jesus?
Okay enough of this thread Kathi has her mind set to bend any way possible to believe what she already believes and that's okay perhaps it gives her peace. The Jews got peace from simply not believing Jesus was even Christ but that's okay too.
Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.God Bless you Kathi
Mike,
you asked:Quote
1. How could Jesus have “BECOME as much superior to the angels as the name he has INHERITED is superior to theirs”?I believe you are referring to this chapter in Hebrews:
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”7And of the angels He says,
“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”13But to which of the angels has He ever said,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES
A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?According to my understanding, “Son of God” would be the name the Son 'inherited' as opposed to 'received' by a means other than being a literal son.
Obviously, the Son had to be put in a lower position than the angels when He became flesh which would make Him in an inferior position according to His flesh.
After He made purification of sins, He received the glory that He had with God His Father before He was made lower than the angels, and thus returned to being far superior to the angels.Quote 2. The one and only “Most High God” has a Son named Jesus. Does Jesus have a Son named Jesus? Jesus does not have a literal son named Jesus. Why would you even ask that? However, He has given eternal life to many, so in that way, He has fathered many.
The term “Most High God” can refer to the unity of two persons, the Father and the Son with their Spirit. Or can refer to the Father who is the God of gods.
The unity is the unity of the Father and His Son…so in that way, the unity has within it a Son named Jesus.
Within the unity is the Father who is the God of gods and this Father is the Father of the Son named Jesus, who is the Lord of lords…who is with Him in the unity of the Most High God.Jehovah is not only the God of gods, the Father, but also the Lord of lords, the Son.
Deut 10:17 17“For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.Quote (bodhitharta @ June 28 2012,00:37) Okay enough of this thread Kathi has her mind set to bend any way possible to believe what she already believes and that's okay perhaps it gives her peace. The Jews got peace from simply not believing Jesus was even Christ but that's okay too. Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.God Bless you Kathi
BD,Is that your way of realizing that I have met your arguments with points that you do not know how to refute?
What level of 'knowing' have you attained to, BD?
1. Jesus is a man
2. Jesus is the prophet referred to that God would raise up like Moses?
3. Jesus is the promised Messiah, the King of the Jews, the Son of David, the promised 'seed' of the covenant through Isaac and Jacob?
4. Jesus is the literal Son of God/our Savior and Lord, therefore the Only Begotten God and will reign for ever and ever over all creation with His Father?
5. Jehovah is both Father and Son united by their Spirit, the same Spirit that dwells within believers today.
6.???If you can only get to step two then you have more to learn. Love the Father and the Son and keep seeking because they know those who love them and will disclose themselves to you. I surely have much more to learn also.
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord Bodhitharta.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 29 2012,04:34) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 28 2012,00:37) Okay enough of this thread Kathi has her mind set to bend any way possible to believe what she already believes and that's okay perhaps it gives her peace. The Jews got peace from simply not believing Jesus was even Christ but that's okay too. Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.God Bless you Kathi
BD,Is that your way of realizing that I have met your arguments with points that you do not know how to refute?
What level of 'knowing' have you attained to, BD?
1. Jesus is a man
2. Jesus is the prophet referred to that God would raise up like Moses?
3. Jesus is the promised Messiah, the King of the Jews, the Son of David, the promised 'seed' of the covenant through Isaac and Jacob?
4. Jesus is the literal Son of God/our Savior and Lord, therefore the Only Begotten God and will reign for ever and ever over all creation with His Father?
5. Jehovah is both Father and Son united by their Spirit, the same Spirit that dwells within believers today.
6.???If you can only get to step two then you have more to learn. Love the Father and the Son and keep seeking because they know those who love them and will disclose themselves to you. I surely have much more to learn also.
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord Bodhitharta.
Now I see by the way you right, how you interpret if I thought like you I could say you just proclaimed me “Lord Bodhitharta”It should have been written
Grace and peace be multiplied to you Bodhitharta in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord
I'm not trying to be funny (at least not totally funny) but seriously is there ever any condition in which you see the words “ONE”, “ONLY” and “I” as being literal? According to you anyone could claim even several more gods all being the highest you already have 2 in the number 1 spot.
You won't give the Father Sovereign rights, do you know what Sovereign means?
sovereign n. One that exercises supreme, permanent authority, especially in a nation or other governmental unit
So wouldn't this definition Make the Father Sovereign since you agree He has the greater Authority. even if everyone and everything was “God” would the Father have SUPREME AUTHORITY?
does the Father have a God of Authority OVER HIM? Yes or no?
You simply don't get many parts of the Bible Jesus declared that he was not the son of David but you don't understand.
Mark 12:35-37
King James Version (KJV)
35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
This i what I mean you don't look thoroughly, Tell me who Anointed “The Father”?
BD,
Quote Now I see by the way you right, how you interpret if I thought like you I could say you just proclaimed me “Lord Bodhitharta” LOL, I'm glad you realize that I do not see you as the Lord Jesus. Thanks for catching that. Is that the only punctuation error that I have made in this thread? I'll bet you can find others. Why don't you read it through from the beginning, carefully. If you do, you will see that I have said that the Father has authority over His Son. Apparently you missed that from what your comment demonstrates:
Quote
You won't give the Father Sovereign rights, do you know what Sovereign means?sovereign n. One that exercises supreme, permanent authority, especially in a nation or other governmental unit
So wouldn't this definition Make the Father Sovereign since you agree He has the greater Authority. even if everyone and everything was “God” would the Father have SUPREME AUTHORITY?
The thing about the sovereignty of the Father is that the way He is sovereign is through His Son, not by Himself.
http://www.cbn.com/media/player/index.aspx?s=/vod/AL32v1_WS
Bodhitharta, grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. Don't miss the message
Greater truth = greater peace You may think that you have peace now but wait till you meet the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You will experience true freedom to embrace Jesus as Lord!
BD,
Quote is there ever any condition in which you see the words “ONE”, “ONLY” and “I” as being literal? According to you anyone could claim even several more gods all being the highest you already have 2 in the number 1 spot. Context rules. Jesus is the only 'Begotten' God. There are no others.
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 28 2012,14:40) You simply don't get many parts of the Bible Jesus declared that he was not the son of David but you don't understand. Mark 12:35-37
King James Version (KJV)
35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
This i what I mean you don't look thoroughly, Tell me who Anointed “The Father”?
BD,Quote You simply don't get many parts of the Bible Jesus declared that he was not the son of David but you don't understand. I can't believe that you actually think that Jesus is declaring that He is not the Son of David…really, is that what muslims in general believe?
Oh my goodness…you are confused here too, BD! Jesus was indirectly telling them, in Mark 12:35-37 that He was both the Son of David AND David's Lord who existed before David was born.
Now, He was asking his audience how He could be both the Son of David and His Lord…because He is the literal Son of God and therefore the only Begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father. The 'Father' meaning the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
He is the root AND the branch of Jesse.
Luke 1:32
“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;Now can you comprehend that the 'He' and the 'Him' refer to Christ??
How about this:
Matt 1:1The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:Also, no one anointed the Father, no need for that. He anointed His Son, this would be reasonable for Him to do for His Son since the Father is in authority over Him and is sovereign through the Son.
BD, I'm trying to help you get past level 1 or are you at level 2?
Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2012,10:58) According to my understanding, “Son of God” would be the name the Son 'inherited' as opposed to 'received' by a means other than being a literal son.
Obviously, the Son had to be put in a lower position than the angels when He became flesh which would make Him in an inferior position according to His flesh.
After He made purification of sins, He received the glory that He had with God His Father before He was made lower than the angels, and thus returned to being far superior to the angels.
Hi Kathi,According to my understanding, the name Jesus inherited when he was exalted by his God is the new name that only he knows for now. (Rev 3:12, 19:12) He had already been known as “the Son of God” before he was exalted, so I don't think that would be his “new” name.
And I agree that Jesus was made lower than the angels for a while, but the wording “BECAME” as much superior doesn't mean the same as RETURNED TO BEING as much superior. Plus, his new inherited name is apparently a higher name than the one he had before coming into the world.
BECAME AS MUCH SUPERIOR AS THE NEW NAME IS SUPERIOR.
It seems clear to me that Jesus was exalted to an even higher name and position than the one he left.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2012,10:58) Jesus does not have a literal son named Jesus. Why would you even ask that?
THE Most High God does have a Son named Jesus. If Jesus doesn't, then Jesus is not THE Most High God.
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