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Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2012,14:15) Mike,
Have I shown you historical writings where apostles in the first century claim that Jesus was the creator?
Mike,
So is that a yes? I have shown you historical writings where apostles in the first century claim that Jesus was the creator?No, I don't remember seeing any such thing. Nor would I bother to believe any writing from any man if it contradicted the Holy Scriptures.
Kathi, can you tell me the scripture that speaks of our Creators? Because I can show you many that speak of our Creator.
Kathi,
How can Jesus “become as much superior to the angels as the name he has INHERITED is superior to theirs”?
Mike,
Do you recall me showing you this historical syriac writing?Quote From the ancient Syriac documents:
The Teaching of Simon Cephas in the City of Rome (who we know as 'Peter' the disciple):In the third(4) year of Claudius Caesar, Simon Cephas departed from Antioch to go to Rome. And as he passed on he preached in the divers countries the word of our Lord. And, when he had nearly arrived there,(5) many had heard of it and went out to meet him, and the whole church received him with great joy. And some of the princes of the city, wearers of the imperial headbands,(6) came to him, that they might see him and hear his word. And, when the whole city was gathered together about him, he stood up to speak to them, and to show them the preaching of his doctrine, of what sort it was. And he began to speak to them thus:-
Men, people of Rome, saints of all Italy, hear ye that which I say to you. This day I preach and proclaim Jesus the Son of God, who came down from heaven, and became man, and was with us as one of ourselves, and wrought marvellous mighty-works and signs and wonders before us, and before all the Jews that are in the land of Palestine. And you yourselves also heard of those things which He did: because they came to Him from other countries also, on account of the fame of His healing and the report of the marvellous help He gave;(7) and whosoever drew near to Him was healed by His word. And, inasmuch as He was God, at the same time that He healed He also forgave sins: for His healing, which was open to view, bore witness of His hidden forgiveness, that it was real and trustworthy. For this Jesus did the prophets announce in their mysterious sayings, as they were looking forward to see Him and to hear His word: Him who was with His Father from eternity and from everlasting; God, who was hidden in the height, and appeared in the depth; the glorious Son, who was from His Progenitor, and is to be glorified, together with His Father, and His divine Spirit, and the terrible power of His dominion. And He was crucified of His own will by the hands of sinners, and was taken up to His Father, even as I and my companions saw. And He is about to come again, in His own glory and that of His holy angels, even as we heard Him say to us. For we cannot say anything which was not heard by us from Him, neither do we write in the book of His Gospel anything which He Himself did not say to us: because this word is spoken in order that the mouth of liars may be shut, in the day when men shall give an account of idle words at the place of judgment.
Moreover, because we were catchers of fish,(8) and not skilled in books, therefore did He also say to us: “I will send you the Spirit, the Paraclete, that He may teach you that which ye know not; “for it is by His gift that we speak those things which ye hear. And, further, by it we bring aid to the sick, and healing to the diseased: that by the hearing of His word and by the aid of His power ye may believe in Christ, that He is God, the Son of God; and may be delivered from the service of bondage, and may worship Him and His Father, and glorify His divine Spirit. For when we glorify the Father, we glorify the Son also with Him; and when we worship the Son, we worship the Father also with Him; and when we confess the Spirit, we confess the Father also and the Son: because in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Spirit, were we commanded to baptize those who believe, that they may live for ever.
Flee therefore from the words of the wisdom of this world, in which there is no profit, and draw near to those which are true and faithful, and acceptable before God; whose reward also is laid up in store, and whose recompense standeth sure. Now, too,(9) the light has arisen on the creation, and the world has obtained the eyes, of the mind, that every man may see and understand that it is not fit that creatures should be worshipped instead of the Creator, nor together with the Creator: because everything which is a creature is made to be a worshipper of its Maker, and is not to be worshipped like its Creator. But this One who came to us is God, the Son of God, in His own nature, notwithstanding that He mingled(10) His Godhead with our manhood, in order that He might renew our manhood by the aid of His Godhead. And on this account it is right that we should worship Him, because He is to be worshipped together with His Father, and that we should not worship creatures, who were created for the worship of the Creator. For He is Himself the God of truth and verity; He is Himself from before all worlds and creatures; He is Himself the veritable Son, and the glorious fruit(11) which is from the exalted Father.
But ye see the wonderful works which accompany and follow these words. One would not credit it: the time lo! is short since He ascended to His Father, and see how His Gospel has winged its flight through the whole creation-that thereby it may be known and believed that He Himself is the Creator of creatures, and that by His bidding creatures subsist. And, whereas ye saw the sun become darkened at His death, ye yourselves also are witnesses. The earth, moreover, quaked when He was slain, and the veil was rent at His death. And concerning these things the governor Pilate also was witness: for he himself sent and made them known to Caesar,(12) and these things, and more than these, were read before him, and before the princes of your city. And on this account Caesar was angry against Pilate because he had unjustly listened to the persuasion of the Jews; and for this reason he sent and took away from him the authority which he had given to him. And this same thing was published and known in all the dominion of the Romans. That, therefore, which Pilate saw and made known to Caesar and to your honourable senate, the same do I preach and declare, as do also my fellow-apostles. And ye know that Pilate could not have written to the imperial government of that which did not take place and which he had not seen with his own eyes; but that which did take place and was actually done-this it was that he wrote and made known. Moreover, the watchers of the sepulchre also were witnesses of those things which took place there: they became as dead men; and, when those watchers were questioned before Pilate, they confessed before him how large a bribe the chief-priests of the Jews had given them, so that they might say that we His disciples had stolen the corpse of Christ. Lo! then, ye have heard many things; and moreover, if ye be not willing to be persuaded by those things which ye have heard, be at least persuaded by the mighty-works which ye see, which are done by His name.
Bear in mind, I am not asking you if you believe it, I am asking you if you remember me showing you this? I am also asking you if this is stating that Jesus is the creator and not the created? I am not asking you if you believe it aligns with scripture or not.
Yes, I think now that I see it, I recall reading it in one of your threads where you thought it wise to post all sorts of words of mere men………….. AS LONG AS those words agreed with your doctrine.
And for the record, NO I don't believe it, and NO, it doesn't align with the scriptures – although I suppose it DOES tickle your itching ears.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2012,05:51) BD, Hebrews 5:8
Although Jesus was the Son of God, he learned to be obedient through his sufferings.Quote there was no food but because that He was to prove that He trusted in God as He teaches others to do. You just said he trusted in God but on the other hand you said he is God, so are you saying he trusted in himself?
You have to understand that if Jesus is God he accomplished nothing and didn't show anyone the way. We are not God and God's ways are Higher than ours so as long as you call Jesus God you will never be able to heed his words.
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King James Version——————————————————————————–
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
You seem to not want to understand but that gives you an excuse doesn't it?
BD,
Why, when I speak about “two persons being united as one supreme authority called God” you respond as if I said one person relating to himself as God alone? I don't think you are understanding my position. Maybe I am not writing clearly. Each person in the unity as one supreme authority, often called “God” in some contexts can also be called “God” individually, and can refer to either the Father or the Son…depending on context.Ok, Mike,
Then you were made aware that a 1st century document indicates that Jesus was the creator and not the created. Even back then, that was taught, and by the apostle Peter who you agree has a position of authority in the body of Christ. Therefore, it wasn't something that the people of the third century came up with obviously since it was taught in the 1st century. Do you see this?Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2012,12:51) BD,
Why, when I speak about “two persons being united as one supreme authority called God” you respond as if I said one person relating to himself as God alone? I don't think you are understanding my position. Maybe I am not writing clearly. Each person in the unity as one supreme authority, often called “God” in some contexts can also be called “God” individually, and can refer to either the Father or the Son…depending on context.
So when God says:14.Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited— he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.15.Isaiah 45:21
Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.When God says there is NO OTHER but ME how do you read that, do you see ME as plural even though God explicitly states there is NONE other?
Hi BD,
you ask:Quote
When God says there is NO OTHER but ME how do you read that, do you see ME as plural even though God explicitly states there is NONE other?Good question. I see “ME” in this context as a unity and unities often have singular pronouns to refer to them. For example, the church is written of as a “SHE” and I see that as a unity also. See this passage where a unity called the 'church' is referred to as a 'her' and a 'she,' singular pronouns:
Eph 5:25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
We know that the church has many persons fellow-shipping withinin the unity called the 'church.' There are men and women within a church. Never-the-less, the pronoun is singular and feminine, so is the word 'church.' The gender is not that significant though because the word 'church' is a feminine word in the Greek and has a feminine pronoun. The singular aspect is significant here to show you that a singular pronoun can be used to relate to a unity of more than one person.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2012,16:39) Hi BD,
you ask:Quote
When God says there is NO OTHER but ME how do you read that, do you see ME as plural even though God explicitly states there is NONE other?Good question. I see “ME” in this context as a unity and unities often have singular pronouns to refer to them. For example, the church is written of as a “SHE” and I see that as a unity also. See this passage where a unity called the 'church' is referred to as a 'her' and a 'she,' singular pronouns:
Eph 5:25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
We know that the church has many persons fellow-shipping withinin the unity called the 'church.' There are men and women within a church. Never-the-less, the pronoun is singular and feminine, so is the word 'church.' The gender is not that significant though because the word 'church' is a feminine word in the Greek and has a feminine pronoun. The singular aspect is significant here to show you that a singular pronoun can be used to relate to a unity of more than one person.
The only problem with that answer is that you can't find me a single instance of a Being refering to themselves singularly using a personal noun. To say “she” or “he” is not the same as to say “I” or “Me” or “Myself” there is not a single instance in all of literatue.Alsto say “I” followed by “None” other is reducing the plurality down to zero.
Also when it reads in Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Is this also referring to more than One Lord or is it specifically talking about the Lord God as a particular single entity?
BD,
If you see that LORD=Jehovah/YHVH
and
if you see that YHVH=the God of gods and the Lord of lords
and
if you see that for us there is one God (Father) and one Lord (Son)
and
if you see that the Father and Son are one…it all comes together.
Hear O Israel: The God of gods and Lord of lords (YHVH), our God (a plural word, btw) is one God of gods and Lord of lords (YHVH).
In other words, The God of gods and Lord of lords, our God, is one God of gods and Lord of lords.
Verse references:
Deut 10:17 “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”
I hope this helps
Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2012,20:00) Ok, Mike,
Then you were made aware that a 1st century document indicates that Jesus was the creator and not the created. Even back then, that was taught, and by the apostle Peter who you agree has a position of authority in the body of Christ. Therefore, it wasn't something that the people of the third century came up with obviously since it was taught in the 1st century. Do you see this?
Hi Kathi,I don't believe your letter was written in the first century, and I definitely KNOW it was not written by Simon, the one Jesus named Cephas.
But the apostasy was already in the church almost immediately after Jesus was raised from the dead. Paul and other disciples mention this fact in bona fide scripture.
My point was that the “3 in 1 God” theory didn't get well known until the battle between Athanasius and Arius – which was settled at the Council of Nicaea in 325. (And even then it wasn't really “settled”, because the more widespread the teaching was made among Christians, the more those Christians rebelled against such a ludicrous teaching, to the point that the Nicene Creed was actually renounced as heresy and eliminated. Then it went back and forth, council after council, until there ended up being more people in power who wanted the Christian God to be a triad like all the other gods of the other nations, than there were people who wanted the truth of the scriptures to prevail. The day that doctrine was declared sacrosanct in the eyes of the Church leaders was the lowest blow to scriptural truth that has ever occurred. The results have been devastating, producing billions of Christians throughout the years who have blindly believed the nonsense that the Son of God is the very God he is the Son of – because their deacon or bishop or pastor told them it was the “truth of scripture”.)
Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2012,11:41) BD,
If you see that LORD=Jehovah/YHVH
and
if you see that YHVH=the God of gods and the Lord of lords
and
if you see that for us there is one God (Father) and one Lord (Son)
and
if you see that the Father and Son are one…it all comes together.
Really? You're STILL going to continue using this theory to force your point, knowing full well that the Father ALONE is called “our Lord and God” in Revelation?Hmmmm…………….
Kathi,
How could Jesus have “BECOME as much superior to the angels as the name he has INHERITED is superior to theirs”?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2012,10:56) Kathi, The one and only “Most High God” has a Son named Jesus.
Does Jesus have a Son named Jesus?
I guess that's what it all boils down to and Mike read my mind, yes Kathi who is the MOST HIGH?Psalm 92:8
But thou, LORD, art most high for evermore.Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.What do these verses have in common? Jesus is plainly saying what the psalmist is saying how is that possible if Jesus is saying he is not the Most High? Don't you understand that even if I agreed with you that Jesus could be called God he would still not be the Most High and because of that Jesus himself calls the MOST HIGH the ONLY TRUE GOD.
No equal footing here Jesus plainly says John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.Greater as in HIGHER, HE is THE MOST HIGH go ahead cast out demons in the name of Jesus, heal the sick in the name of Jesus do all you want in the name of Jesus
John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.Matthew 7:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I think it's time you get to know Jesus and his LORD “GOD” THE MOST HIGH.
You are subverting and violating The Sovereignty of God Almighty and Jesus will not approve
BD,
Within the unity there are two persons, one is greater in authority than the other, so? I have never said anything different. I have never said that they have equal authority…one is the Father and has greater authority over the Son. This is typically the case within a Father/Son relationship. Still they are a unity. A unity can have members that differ in authority yet still be a unity. Having greater authority does not mean He has greater nature.The Most High is the Most High because of the unity, not apart from the unity.
BTW, no one can snatch believers out of the Son's hand either.
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