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Yes Kathi,
Let's DO keep it simple. The passage speaks of ONE who is “God Almighty” and “our Lord and God”……….and it speaks of ANOTHER, who apparently is NOT “God Almighty” and “our Lord and God”, because that OTHER ONE takes a scroll from the hand OF the one who actually IS “God Almighty” and “our Lord and God”. (Oh, and seeing how the Lamb is someone OTHER THAN “God Almighty”, he is subsequently someone OTHER THAN the “one who created all things”.)
So keep it simple, Kathi. Don't invent things into the scripture that are not there. What IS there, plain as day, is the fact that the One who sits on the throne is God Almighty. The other one, who takes a scroll from God Almighty, is God's sacrificial Lamb that He gave as a once for all time sacrifice for human beings.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2012,20:59) I'll wait for your response to my two points, Kathi. We're getting off track with stuff we've already discussed MANY times before – stuff that you just claim, with no scriptural backing. For example, which scripture says the Son receives the “same honor” as his own God? (And don't say John 5:23, for that means, “you honor the Father, also honor the Son”. It doesn't specify it is the SAME honor.)
Mike,
Please show me what you think that I have no scriptural backing to what I claim, since you are going to make such a statement.Your question, even if I was able to understand the wording, is off point. But can you show me where Jesus and his God (the One who is also OUR God) receive the same honor?
Mike,
Quote (Oh, and seeing how the Lamb is someone OTHER THAN “God Almighty”, he is subsequently someone OTHER THAN the “one who created all things”.)
I have always said that there are two persons involved. In THIS context of Rev 5, one is called God Almighty. This book of the Bible is not a revelation of the Father but of the other one who is the 'First and the Last' who is with the Father. This book reveals TWO seated on the Father's throne in a later chapter. In different contexts, they are both called 'Lord and God.' It seems like OT understanding is meeting the revelation of NT understanding as to who is the supreme authority. It is not just one person but two…two sit on the one highest throne…the almighty throne.Please note that Jesus is calling Himself the 'First and the Last' in Rev Chapter 1:
17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.Isaiah 44:6 “This is what the LORD says–Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Isaiah 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
Revelation 2:8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.
Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Mike,
Do you see in the above post that the honor of being the 'First and the Last” is Jesus' honor? Do you also see that in the OT the one who is the First and the Last is the only God? I don't think that you can deny that, Mike. Jesus also has the honor of being the temple with the Father in Revelations. Jesus also has the honor of sitting on the same throne as the Father. There are things that Jesus has the honor of that the Father doesn't have the honor of, i.e. being the sacrifice for the remission of sins, coming in the flesh, etc. So in some things the Father and the Son share in the same honor and in some things their roles have different honors. The Father has the honor as the Begetter and the Son has the honor as the Begotten. Each has the honor of being in the beginning…and it goes on.Mike,
Look what you said:Quote Your question, even if I was able to understand the wording, is off point. What exactly do you want to say here…my question is off point IF you were able to understand it? So does that mean you understand it or not? You can't really say that it is 'off point' if you can't understand it now, can you, because how would you know if it were on or off point if you really can't understand it.
YOU, Mike, are the one that stated that my 'claims' were unscriptural and now you don't want to defend that. Just so that is clear to the reader here. You say that is off point when you are the one that made a point of it. I was asking you to defend the statement YOU brought up. So it was 'on point' when YOU slanderously made the allegation but it is 'off point' when I ask you to defend the allegation??? hmmm
Mike, you ought not to make slanderous remarks about people.
Hi Kathi,
You made some claims on the last page that we've already discussed before. To my knowledge, there is no scripture that says Jesus receives the SAME honor as his God, nor would it make sense to me for someone to honor the servant with the same honor he gives that servant's God. I was asking you not to make claims that no scripture CLEARLY supports. Sorry if I offended you.
We are to honor Jesus, for sure. But we honor him as the Savior God SENT, not as the God and Savior who SENT him.
You brought up that Jesus is “the First and the Last” and his God is also “the First and the Last”. Okay. Does having the same thing said about you and someone else make you BE that someone else?
What about “King of kings”? That is said of Jesus, God, AND King Nebuchadnezzar. But surely they are not all the same being, or “unity Godhead”, just because of this, right?
You brought up Jesus having the honor of sitting on the same throne as the Father. But you seemed to have overlooked that this was a privilege GRANTED to Jesus by his God, and Jesus will likewise GRANT to those who overcome the privilege of sitting on his throne. That won't make those who overcome equal with Jesus any more than it makes Jesus equal with his God.
Kathi, the Rev 4 and 5 passage is loaded with very clear wording that distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN “our Lord and God, who created all things”.
I will follow your advice and keep it simple by not adding my imagination to the words written. Jesus is clearly not God Almighty, but His Son.
And I want to remind you that the main reason I even quoted that passage was to show you that your understanding of 1 Cor 8:6 cannot possibly be the correct one – for the Father is our Lord and God. Therefore, it is much more likely that Paul was listing a hierarchy of God and His Son, listing the Father in the top spot, and the Son directly below Him.
peace,
mikeMike,
Both, Jesus and the God of the OT are called:
The First and the Last
Savior
God and Lord
Lord of lordsBy both names, men are victorious in.
Both are credited with creation.
Both are credited with salvation.
Both are over the church.
Both are the temple in heaven.
Both pour out their wrath on the day of the Lord.
Both sit on the highest throne.
Both have dominion over all.
Both have power, glory, and honor and dominion for ever and ever.1 Cor 8:6 tells us that both are our supreme authority. For US there is one God and one Lord.
We are told there is one savior, one God, so to reconcile this and the above, Jesus tells us that they are one.
The OT tells us of a oneness of God, the NT tells us that the oneness of God is two persons, together with their Spirit.The highest throne that they BOTH sit on was the same throne that they both sat on before the Son emptied Himself, as I understand it. He received the same glory that He had with the Father before the foundation of the world. For a time, He did not have that glory because He willingly gave up that glory to become a bondservant. That doesn't mean that He gave up His identity that He had beforehand, but He gave up the glory that would come with that identity, for a time, so that He could take on another identity to fulfill the requirement for our salvation.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 20 2012,11:24) Mike,
I have never disagreed that the Father has authority over the Son. You have authority over your son, do you not? Does that make you unequal? You are both equally human even though there is a difference in position. The Father and Son are both equally god natured even though there is a difference in position which comes from their relationship of father to son.Can you see that position in a relationship can be unequal than another yet the nature is equal?
I'm sure we will get to the other points. Maybe even in a few posts here. Please answer the question because it is important.
You just hit the nail on the head. God IS a position, therefore Jesus said that the Father was the ONLY TRUE GOD. No one else holds such a position.
This is the part that you don't understand.There are many spirits but that doesn't make those spirits “God” and yet God is a Spirit.
For instance Jesus can be called divine but God cannot be called divine and the reason is the word means godlike.
We can all take on God like qualities but we can never be like God in Status or in HIS truest sense
Quote (Lightenup @ June 22 2012,10:55) The highest throne that they BOTH sit on was the same throne that they both sat on before the Son emptied Himself, as I understand it. He received the same glory that He had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
Jesus is granted to sit on the throne of his God for a time. He has his own throne which is not the throne of his God. He will grant those who overcome to sit on that throne with him, but that won't make those people “Jesus”.And as I understand Hebrews 1:4, Jesus was exalted to an even higher position than the one he left. While 1:4 doesn't comment on how superior Jesus was to the other angels before he emptied himself, the words “became as much superior” implies that however more superior to the angels he WAS, he is even more so now – after being exalted by his God and our God.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 20 2012,14:18) Mike,
Do you see in the above post that the honor of being the 'First and the Last” is Jesus' honor? Do you also see that in the OT the one who is the First and the Last is the only God? I don't think that you can deny that, Mike. Jesus also has the honor of being the temple with the Father in Revelations. Jesus also has the honor of sitting on the same throne as the Father. There are things that Jesus has the honor of that the Father doesn't have the honor of, i.e. being the sacrifice for the remission of sins, coming in the flesh, etc. So in some things the Father and the Son share in the same honor and in some things their roles have different honors. The Father has the honor as the Begetter and the Son has the honor as the Begotten. Each has the honor of being in the beginning…and it goes on.
Bottom line and thisshould be the end of this:Hebrews 5:8
Although Jesus was the Son of God, he learned to be obedient through his sufferings.Now, I will ask you does God Almighty need to learn to be obedient?
You would think so, Asana. But then again, one would think that the very fact Jesus is the Son of God Almighty would prohibit him from being God Almighty.
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 22 2012,15:40) Quote (Lightenup @ June 20 2012,11:24) Mike,
I have never disagreed that the Father has authority over the Son. You have authority over your son, do you not? Does that make you unequal? You are both equally human even though there is a difference in position. The Father and Son are both equally god natured even though there is a difference in position which comes from their relationship of father to son.Can you see that position in a relationship can be unequal than another yet the nature is equal?
I'm sure we will get to the other points. Maybe even in a few posts here. Please answer the question because it is important.
You just hit the nail on the head. God IS a position, therefore Jesus said that the Father was the ONLY TRUE GOD. No one else holds such a position.
This is the part that you don't understand.There are many spirits but that doesn't make those spirits “God” and yet God is a Spirit.
For instance Jesus can be called divine but God cannot be called divine and the reason is the word means godlike.
We can all take on God like qualities but we can never be like God in Status or in HIS truest sense
Hi BD,
you said:Quote You just hit the nail on the head. God IS a position, therefore Jesus said that the Father was the ONLY TRUE GOD. No one else holds such a position.
This is the part that you don't understand.In some contexts the term God does denote a position and the nature of that position in the truest sense would be a position that carries supreme authority over all creation and be eternal, and sustain creation.
What I have been trying to say, is that this position of supreme authority that is eternal, and also creator and sustainer of all, is held by two persons together with their Spirit.
It is sorta like the position of piloting a commercial airplane. Two persons pilot the airplane. One as the Captain pilot, the other as the co-pilot. Both persons are pilots and both qualified to fly the plane. In a certain context, one is in authority over the other but still both are equally pilots.
The co-pilot is with the pilot and together they fly the plane. They are both pilots together in the position of manning the cockpit.
And when a disgruntled passenger in the back of the plane says, “I want to speak to THE Pilot!”, to which one does he refer?
See, while both are pilots (gods), there is only one who is THE Pilot (THE God). And that one is the only one calling the shots on that plane. The other one is there to help/serve THE Pilot, and to ensure that the will of THE Pilot is fulfilled. He follows the commands of THE Pilot.
THE Pilot might even take a bathroom break, leaving his servant (also a pilot) in control of the plane for a while. But as soon as THE Pilot returns, he is again in charge, and the other pilot subjects himself to the one in charge.
Mike,
If anyone was disgruntled on the plane, they must have somehow missed the fact that the head pilot sent the co-pilot out to the passengar cabin to put his life on the line in between the psycho hijacker and the passengers and masterfully overcame him in order to save them from the plane crashing into the trade center. I believe that if she understood what took place, she would be telling the captain how thankful she was for his co-captain and what a hero he was to risk his life for the passengers! I'm thinking that she would be holding the co-captain in HIGHEST regards with the captain, certainly not second place to the captain.The Father and Son both deserve the highest honor, glory, and praise that we can give THEM! They, together created us, together saved us, and together have dominion over us for ever and ever…and all you can say is “but only one calls the shots.” C,mon Mike, the Son came and outwitted our accuser and gave up the glory due him to get whipped, stoned, and crucified in order to save you and somehow you are going to make sure that everyone knows that He was only the co-pilot and not deserving of the same highest regards as the pilot that sent Him.
Both are 'pilots' but only one sacrificed His glory and honor and praise and died for us. You say that the pilot was the savior and not the co-pilot. I say both are together the savior. Without the pilot skillfully flying the plane and the co-pilot overcoming the psycho hijacker, the passengers would have crashed and BURNED!!!
Kathi,
I don't disagree with your analogy (except for them both creating us – for we have a Creator, not Creators). But shall we then give the passengers who stepped up to help the co-pilot equal glory also?
Jesus is highly glorified in heaven, because with his blood he purchased men for God. But didn't Peter, Paul, and many other disciples have their own blood spilled in their unwaivering quest to purchase even more men for God? Shall we afford them honor? Absolutely. Should we honor them with the same honor we give our Lord Jesus?
In the battles of King David that kept the nation of Israel living in peace, who gets the honor? God, who was with David every step of the way? David himself, who was calling the shots? Joab, David's right hand man who was on the battle-front, directing the warriors? Or those nameless, faceless warriors themselves, who laid down their lives to keep the woman and children of Israel living happily in peaceful towns and villages?
Shall they all receive the same exact honor as the God who led them to victory?
What you don't seem to understand is that EVERYTHING under heaven belongs to God (read my signature). If it is God's will for me to lay down my life, what argument could I possibly offer him, knowing that my very life was a gift from Him in the first place? It is the same with his Son. The Son lives BECAUSE OF his God (John 6:57), and so anything he offered up according to the will of the Father was originally a gift FROM the Father in the first place.
So back to the pilot analogy, it was THE Pilot who had the choice of just letting the passengers on that plane die at the hands of the madman, or sending his servant pilot back to save the passengers – knowing full well his servant pilot would most likely die in the process of saving the rest. And the ONE who had the choice, made the choice that the passengers should live. And the servant did as he was commanded, bravely and with much valor, knowing he would die in the process of saving the others. He deserves much honor, as do all the nameless, faceless soldiers who have laid down their lives selflessly at the command of their superiors throughout the ages.
But don't forget there was only ONE who made the choice whether those passengers should be left to die, or be saved. The ONE who made that choice that we should live deserves a greater honor than the servant who laid down his life at his Master's command. Especially when you consider that life was a gift from his Master in the first place.
This is what Jesus taught about servants:
Luke 17
7 “Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? 8 Would he not rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? 9 Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’”Do I honor my Lord Jesus Christ for doing his duty? Absolutely. Do I afford him the same honor I give my God and Creator, who made the choice in the first place to send His servant so that we should live? No. It was God's choice that we be redeemed – not Jesus'. And it was God who actually sacrificed something that was truly His own – not something that was given to Him as a gift in the first place.
Kathi, it is evident that you hold the servant as equal to the Master he serves. Do you also hold us, as servants, equal to the Master we serve?
Hi Mike,
you said:Quote
I don't disagree with your analogy (except for them both creating us – for we have a Creator, not Creators).
Would you agree that MANY scholars, and early church fathers, including Eusebius, believe that Jesus was the creator of all things in heaven and on earth based on what the Bible says?BD,
Quote
Hebrews 5:8
Although Jesus was the Son of God, he learned to be obedient through his sufferings.Now, I will ask you does God Almighty need to learn to be obedient?
If God Almighty willingly took on the nature which caused Him to feel hunger, exhaustion, uncomfortably hot or cold, then I believe that He would only be able to say that He overcame the temptation to will Himself fed, rested, comfortable, etc. by actually overcoming it in a manner in which He expects us to. So, yes, I believe that He would learn to be obedient to His own will that He has placed on mankind as to how they are supposed to overcome these things. Jesus was able to turn stones into bread but He did not eat for 40 days, not because there was no food but because that He was to prove that He trusted in God as He teaches others to do. In His existence before the flesh, being hungry was not an issue.
Hebrews 2:14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2012,12:31) Hi Mike,
you said:Quote
I don't disagree with your analogy (except for them both creating us – for we have a Creator, not Creators).
Would you agree that MANY scholars, and early church fathers, including Eusebius, believe that Jesus was the creator of all things in heaven and on earth based on what the Bible says?
I would agree that, 300 years AFTER Jesus died, many who were guided by Satan and prompted by a society in which all the other peoples had triad gods, decided to make the God of the Hebrew scriptures a triad also so He could “stack up” to the gods of those other peoples.And I agree that consequently, many good men were deceived by the god of this world, and started changing and twisting the Holy Scriptures in an effort to FORCE the Son of God into being the very God he is the Son of.
But Kathi, the fact of the matter is that the Most High God has a Son named Jesus. If Jesus does not have a Son named Jesus, then he is not the Most High God.
And according to the Revelation scriptures I just quoted for you in this thread, the one the angels called “God Almighty” is the One who created ALL things. Jesus listed as someone OTHER THAN that One who created ALL things. And as someone OTHER THAN the One who created ALL things, he has no choice but to be one of the things created by that One.
To answer your question, there are WAY more people out there who believe Jesus is the God he is the Son of, than those of us who believe the scriptural truth of the matter. But then again, the road to everlasting life is far less traveled.
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