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BD,
you said:Quote I'm not saying that we can't argue and attack the positions of the other person I just think there is a difference between attacking a position and attacking a person. Absolutely and that is why I was CONFRONTING the one attacking me personally. How many words I use in an answer, which certainly was not anywhere close to a million, was certainly not attacking a position but me personally and how I choose to write my answer. My answer wasn't even written to the one that was in such a huf about how I wrote it. He just jumped in and slung mud. This has been a recurring problem, one that needs to be addressed and confronted.
If you don't understand my arguments then just ask for clarification. If you still don't understand, I will try to find someone else's writings to say it more clearly to help you understand or at least show you that I am not alone in my understanding. OK?
Kathi,
Asking you to DIRECTLY answer the question that Asana asked, or even pointing out to Asana that you chose to DIVERT FROM the question instead of answering it, does NOT constitute a “personal attack” against you.
I was attacking your POSITION of diversion, as opposed to just simply answering the question with a “YES”. You have now shown yourself to be stubborn once again, by STILL not answering with a “YES” this last time I asked you the same question.
You posted this:
But whether you confront the abuser or not, I do recommend that you seek out others who can encourage you and support you. If the abuser is willing to confront his sin and get help, that is good.I didn't even “seek out” Asana in this issue, yet he still came to MY SUPPORT. So perhaps it is YOU who needs to “confront your sin” in this matter.
Anyway, I'm over it. In fact, I was never “under it”. I just thought you ought to know that ALL of the readers here are capable of seeing when a poster is attacking the person rather than the position. That is what YOU did – not what I did.
All I ever do is attack your asinine, unscriptural claims and fantasies.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 30 2012,23:13) Mike,
Do you have any scriptural reason that He was named Jesus before the incarnation?
No. But I also don't have any scripture that says YHWH was named YHWH from eternity. Nor is there a scripture that says Michael was named Michael before we heard of him in Daniel.If his name is Michael now, then what scriptural or logical reason would we have to just ASSUME he hasn't always been named Michael?
The same point goes for YHWH and Jesus. Since there is no scriptural evidence that Jesus had a different name before he was made in the likeness of a human being, I assume his name already was Jesus before this event.
You don't have to agree with my assumption, but I'm quite sure that you can't SCRIPTURALLY refute it.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 01 2012,16:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2012,06:52) Jesus never said the disciples would be able to do greater things THAN HE CAN DO. He only said they'd be able to do greater things THAN THE THINGS THEY'D SEEN HIM DO.
John 14:12 (KJ)12 Verily, verily I say unto you, he that believeth in Me, the works that I do he shall do also; and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto My Father.
John 14:12 NET ©
I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these, because I am going to the Father.NIV ©
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.Asana,
Even in the translation you posted, it is clear that Jesus is not saying the disciples will do greater things than he is capable of doing – only greater things than “what I have been doing”. The pronoun “these” refers back to “what I have been doing”.
Your point that nobody can ever do greater things than God is moot, because ANYBODY who has EVER performed signs and wonders – including Jesus – did those signs and wonders through the power of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2012,06:04) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 01 2012,16:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2012,06:52) Jesus never said the disciples would be able to do greater things THAN HE CAN DO. He only said they'd be able to do greater things THAN THE THINGS THEY'D SEEN HIM DO.
John 14:12 (KJ)12 Verily, verily I say unto you, he that believeth in Me, the works that I do he shall do also; and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto My Father.
John 14:12 NET ©
I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these, because I am going to the Father.NIV ©
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.Asana,
Even in the translation you posted, it is clear that Jesus is not saying the disciples will do greater things than he is capable of doing – only greater things than “what I have been doing”. The pronoun “these” refers back to “what I have been doing”.
Your point that nobody can ever do greater things than God is moot, because ANYBODY who has EVER performed signs and wonders – including Jesus – did those signs and wonders through the power of God.
Totally agree and that was my point, Jesus was telling them that God was doing the works through him not that he had this power of his own accord and so Jesus instructed that God could also work through those of faith.SO the main point was that if Jesus were God Almighty he could not have made such a statement, hence the scripture.
Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:If Jesus were God that entire paragraph of scripture would be moot
BD and Mike,
Jesus is not the Almighty 'Father,' He is the Almighty 'Son'!
Do either of you know of a greater son who has more authority than the one who was named Jesus, if so then tell us about him. If not, Jesus is the Almighty Son in regards to all creation.
Mike,
I think that you present yourself as innocent of one who belittles me personally. Since you do that, I find no reason to continue a discussion with you on here because I do feel that you continually belittle me personally. From now on, I will make this thread a discussion between BD and myself only. If you wish to discuss anything with me in the future, you may do it in that discussion thread that is private between the two of us. However, after years of discussion with you, I find it very unfruitful to be arguing with you over the same things.If you want to respond to that last post where I asked you a question, you may address it on our private discussion thread. Thank you for respecting this.
To All,
This thread is now a discussion between BD and myself, only, from this point. Please respect that and if you post here and you are not BD or myself, it will be requested that your post be deleted.Thank you
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 02 2012,21:09) Jesus was telling them that God was doing the works through him not that he had this power of his own accord and so Jesus instructed that God could also work through those of faith. SO the main point was that if Jesus were God Almighty he could not have made such a statement, hence the scripture.
Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:If Jesus were God that entire paragraph of scripture would be moot
Agreed on all points.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 04 2012,10:59) BD and Mike, Jesus is not the Almighty 'Father,' He is the Almighty 'Son'!
Do either of you know of a greater son who has more authority than the one who was named Jesus, if so then tell us about him. If not, Jesus is the Almighty Son in regards to all creation.
That would mean that Satan is the Almighty God of the dark, evil forces in heaven, right?Oops! Now there are THREE Almighty Gods!
I suppose King David was the Almighty God of those who were originally born human and who ruled over Israel from the earth.
Oh no! Now there are FOUR Almighty Gods!
Shall we keep going, Kathi?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 01 2012,17:56) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 01 2012,16:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 30 2012,14:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2012,17:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 28 2012,17:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2012,16:17) So, Mike, can you say Yeshua is the LORD JEHOVAH?
Sorry Kathi,My God is named Jehovah. His Son is named Jesus – not Jehovah the second, or Jehovah Jr.
And what was His name before the incarnation?
I have no scriptural reason to think he wasn't named “Jesus” from the time his God and our God brought him into existence.I used to go round and round with JA about this point, because he, like many people, just assume that Jesus had a different name before being made in the likeness of a human being.
No one has ever been able to show me a scripture that supports this claim, though.
Mike,
Do you have any scriptural reason that He was named Jesus before the incarnation?
So these begotten sons are Co-Heirs with Jesus Christ?
BD,Yes!
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2012,12:10) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 01 2012,17:56) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 01 2012,16:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 30 2012,14:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2012,17:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 28 2012,17:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2012,16:17) So, Mike, can you say Yeshua is the LORD JEHOVAH?
Sorry Kathi,My God is named Jehovah. His Son is named Jesus – not Jehovah the second, or Jehovah Jr.
And what was His name before the incarnation?
I have no scriptural reason to think he wasn't named “Jesus” from the time his God and our God brought him into existence.I used to go round and round with JA about this point, because he, like many people, just assume that Jesus had a different name before being made in the likeness of a human being.
No one has ever been able to show me a scripture that supports this claim, though.
Mike,
Do you have any scriptural reason that He was named Jesus before the incarnation?
So these begotten sons are Co-Heirs with Jesus Christ?
BD,Yes!
So Jesus is inheriting a position along with others who are inheriting a position?BD,
Christians are joint heirs of life eternal. This is not a position.1 Peter 3And you men, in this way dwell with your wives by knowledge, and hold them in honor as weaker vessels, lest you be subverted in your prayers, because they also inherit the gift of eternal life with you.
BD,
Good morning! I love this time of year!! I bet the trees are pretty up north where you are.I was thinking about you and some others as I read this article. I thought it was well written and addresses many of the questions that you have been asking. I will just post an excerpt here and give you a link to the rest of the article.
The God Who Became a Human Being
How could someone who is spirit, having lived for all eternity in the past, become human? Was Jesus a human being just like us? And when He was a human being, was He still God?
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14
).
How could someone who is spirit, having lived for all eternity in the past, become human? Was Jesus a human being just like us? And when He was a human being, was He still God?
Jesus was prophesied to be “God with us” (Matthew 1:23
). Jesus was a human being and He was also God. There was never a time when He ceased to be who He always was. His identity did not change. When He was in the womb of Mary, He was God. When He was a baby boy lying in the manger, He was God. When He was a youngster growing up in Nazareth, He was God. And when He was dying, He was God.
As a spirit being, prior to His human birth, He was infinite in knowledge, power and presence. As God He would know everything and have unlimited power to act on any object, anywhere. But if He was human, He could not do everything. He would be limited to the normal abilities any normal human being would have. He could not have been both infinite and finite simultaneously.
A physical body with physical limitations
When Jesus became flesh He was still God in terms of His identity, but He was nevertheless a human being in every sense of the word.
Jesus had a physical body. His closest disciple attests that He was a physical person: “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness” (1 John 1:1
). John is establishing the humanity of Jesus Christ when he says they heard, saw and touched Jesus.
He had a fully human body. He was born. He grew and developed just like any other child.
Jesus was subject to the same physical limitations as other human beings, because He had the same kind of body. He experienced hunger when He fasted (Matthew 4:2
) and thirst (John 19:28
). He experienced fatigue from a long walk (John 4:6
).
Jesus suffered physically and died. Hebrews 2:10
tells us that He was made “perfect through sufferings.” Physiologically, He was a human being just as we are human, subject to death. “Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil” (verse 14, NRSV). He was made flesh “that He …might taste death for everyone” (verse 9).
Jesus suffered terribly when He died, as is evident in the crucifixion accounts. When the spear was thrust in His side, water and blood poured out. His body was the same as ours. There can be no doubt that He felt physical suffering as genuinely as we do when He was beaten and scourged, when the crown of thorns was shoved onto His head and when the nails were driven into His wrists and feet.http://www.ucg.org/booklet….n-being
I haven't read the other articles so I don't know about them but this one I agree with.
Have a great day, BD
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2012,19:12) BD,
Christians are joint heirs of life eternal. This is not a position.1 Peter 3And you men, in this way dwell with your wives by knowledge, and hold them in honor as weaker vessels, lest you be subverted in your prayers, because they also inherit the gift of eternal life with you.
So the inheritance is eternal life? Didn't Jesus have eternal life already? If Jesus inherited internal life how could he then be God?Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 06 2012,00:41) BD,
Good morning! I love this time of year!! I bet the trees are pretty up north where you are.I was thinking about you and some others as I read this article. I thought it was well written and addresses many of the questions that you have been asking. I will just post an excerpt here and give you a link to the rest of the article.
The God Who Became a Human Being
How could someone who is spirit, having lived for all eternity in the past, become human? Was Jesus a human being just like us? And when He was a human being, was He still God?
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14
).
How could someone who is spirit, having lived for all eternity in the past, become human? Was Jesus a human being just like us? And when He was a human being, was He still God?
Jesus was prophesied to be “God with us” (Matthew 1:23
). Jesus was a human being and He was also God. There was never a time when He ceased to be who He always was. His identity did not change. When He was in the womb of Mary, He was God. When He was a baby boy lying in the manger, He was God. When He was a youngster growing up in Nazareth, He was God. And when He was dying, He was God.
As a spirit being, prior to His human birth, He was infinite in knowledge, power and presence. As God He would know everything and have unlimited power to act on any object, anywhere. But if He was human, He could not do everything. He would be limited to the normal abilities any normal human being would have. He could not have been both infinite and finite simultaneously.
A physical body with physical limitations
When Jesus became flesh He was still God in terms of His identity, but He was nevertheless a human being in every sense of the word.
Jesus had a physical body. His closest disciple attests that He was a physical person: “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness” (1 John 1:1
). John is establishing the humanity of Jesus Christ when he says they heard, saw and touched Jesus.
He had a fully human body. He was born. He grew and developed just like any other child.
Jesus was subject to the same physical limitations as other human beings, because He had the same kind of body. He experienced hunger when He fasted (Matthew 4:2
) and thirst (John 19:28
). He experienced fatigue from a long walk (John 4:6
).
Jesus suffered physically and died. Hebrews 2:10
tells us that He was made “perfect through sufferings.” Physiologically, He was a human being just as we are human, subject to death. “Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil” (verse 14, NRSV). He was made flesh “that He …might taste death for everyone” (verse 9).
Jesus suffered terribly when He died, as is evident in the crucifixion accounts. When the spear was thrust in His side, water and blood poured out. His body was the same as ours. There can be no doubt that He felt physical suffering as genuinely as we do when He was beaten and scourged, when the crown of thorns was shoved onto His head and when the nails were driven into His wrists and feet.http://www.ucg.org/booklet….n-being
I haven't read the other articles so I don't know about them but this one I agree with.
Have a great day, BD
Hi Kathi.Good day to you as well, regarding your post do you understand what it means to be conscious of your state of being? If I play with a little child like I am the same as they are the reality is the child sees this all quite differently than the adult. God could never consciously be like you or me and therefore could never be human.
If Jesus was God even his suffering would be more of an incovenience and never a reality, you have to understand 99% of all human suffering is not knowing the outcome of such suffering God doesn't have to have HOPE or FAITH because GOD KNOWS. Think about it if someone puts a gun up to your head and you KNOW that them pulling the trigger will simply transport you into another preferred dimension. Now think isf someone puts a gun to your head and try as you might you are not really sure what the outcome will be…do you understand.
You just take away all credibility of Jesus truly being the greatest servant and Master when you ascribe Godhood to him, If Jesus is a God ome to earth he has truly accomplished nothing but If he was a Man approved of by God then he would have unparalled greatness. Fake killing a God has no merit because if you can't truly die you truly cannot be killed and you would know that being God therefore a Sacrifice that is not a sacrifice has no value.
Think about it Kathi you are saying that an Eternal being came down as a mortal so that giving up his mortal life he and you could have an eternal life. So in what way would this eternal being have given up anything? Now if you said Jesus was an eternal being that gave up his eternal life became mortal and died as a mortal and stayed dead then that would be a signifigant and overwhelming sacrifice
BD,
A righteous man can not die for the sins of all mankind, even for the sins of his dearest child. That is an established truth in scripture. What would be a more perfect sacrifice than for one who is equally perfect to the Father, the beloved of the Father, to be given over to the abuse He was to face and then to be killed as a criminal when He was actually the hero of those that crucified Him. I can't think of a higher, more perfect sacrifice.Do you not believe that scripture says that a righteous man cannot die for the sins of another?? You have never seemed to realize this.
When believer's die, it is just a moment till they wake up on the other side. We can all have this hope, BD. Jesus made it possible! Without knowing and believing in Jesus it is not possible to have this hope.
BTW, Jesus couldn't stay dead or He would have not fulfilled prophecy. He had to live again so that He could give life to all believers who believe in Him and know Him and many more things like preparing a place for the believers to go to when they leave their earthly bodies. If He would not have risen we would not be having this conversation, there wouldn't be Christians or hope of eternal life.
Did you read that entire article, BD? Please answer that question and the bolded question. Thanks!
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 06 2012,13:44) BD,
A righteous man can not die for the sins of all mankind, even for the sins of his dearest child. That is an established truth in scripture. What would be a more perfect sacrifice than for one who is equally perfect to the Father, the beloved of the Father, to be given over to the abuse He was to face and then to be killed as a criminal when He was actually the hero of those that crucified Him. I can't think of a higher, more perfect sacrifice.Do you not believe that scripture says that a righteous man cannot die for the sins of another?? You have never seemed to realize this.
When believer's die, it is just a moment till they wake up on the other side. We can all have this hope, BD. Jesus made it possible! Without knowing and believing in Jesus it is not possible to have this hope.
BTW, Jesus couldn't stay dead or He would have not fulfilled prophecy. He had to live again so that He could give life to all believers who believe in Him and know Him and many more things like preparing a place for the believers to go to when they leave their earthly bodies. If He would not have risen we would not be having this conversation, there wouldn't be Christians or hope of eternal life.
Did you read that entire article, BD? Please answer that question and the bolded question. Thanks!
KathiSo are you saying that Jesus the “man” did not die for the sins of anyone only Jesus the “god” did? If So what wouldbe the point of his being made “human”?
Just so you know Islam agrees that a righteous man can not die for the sins of all mankind and therefore the Quran declares that the Righteous Jesus Christ was not killed or Crucified but was saved by God as the scriptures declare.
Psalm 91
1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]2 I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust.”3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare
and from the deadly pestilence.4 He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.5 You will not fear the terror of night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
nor the plague that destroys at midday.7 A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 06 2012,13:44) BD,
A righteous man can not die for the sins of all mankind, even for the sins of his dearest child. That is an established truth in scripture. What would be a more perfect sacrifice than for one who is equally perfect to the Father, the beloved of the Father, to be given over to the abuse He was to face and then to be killed as a criminal when He was actually the hero of those that crucified Him. I can't think of a higher, more perfect sacrifice.Do you not believe that scripture says that a righteous man cannot die for the sins of another?? You have never seemed to realize this.
When believer's die, it is just a moment till they wake up on the other side. We can all have this hope, BD. Jesus made it possible! Without knowing and believing in Jesus it is not possible to have this hope.
BTW, Jesus couldn't stay dead or He would have not fulfilled prophecy. He had to live again so that He could give life to all believers who believe in Him and know Him and many more things like preparing a place for the believers to go to when they leave their earthly bodies. If He would not have risen we would not be having this conversation, there wouldn't be Christians or hope of eternal life.
Did you read that entire article, BD? Please answer that question and the bolded question. Thanks!
Quote He was actually the hero of those that crucified Him How could he be a hero of those that crucified him when they didn't believe in him? You said whoever doesn't believe in Christ they are condemned, right?
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