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BD,
you said:
Quote Actually it really only means to be a true Believer in God just as Jesus said “Eternal Life is to know the Only True God” That is not all that Jesus said, is it??? He said this:
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.I want you to see how you only wrote the first part of the sentence. Something is keeping you from seeing the fullness of just what is eternal life, BD.
1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
BD, do you have this eternal life that you wrote about? Do you believe IN THE SON OF GOD?
You think that to have eternal life is just to know the only True God but that is not really the full truth. 1 John 5 says this eternal life is in His Son, if you do not have the Son then you do not have eternal life.
Many Jews believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob but do not know God.
John 8:19 They were saying to him, “Where is your Father?” Yeshua answered and said to them, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.”
You cannot know the Father apart from knowing the Son of God, BD. Knowing both is eternal life.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 16 2012,14:44) Mike,
I considered what you said but when looking at the context and the events leading up to this and who the 144,000 were, I believe this is a new song from an old song to acknowledge the Lamb with the Father as together as their one almighty deliverer.
Kathi,If it was called “The Song of the Lamb”, then you could be right, although it would still be doubtful and contradict other scriptures.
But fortunately, we don't even have to go there, since the song is called “The Song of Moses and the Lamb“. Whatever meaning you apply to the Lamb in this case will also have to be applied to Moses. So if the song is sung BY the Lamb, then it is also sung BY Moses.
On the other hand, if the song is in worship TO the Lamb, then it is ALSO in worship TO Moses. If the song acknowledges the Lamb together with the Father as the one Almighty Deliverer, it must ALSO acknowledge Moses as such.
Do you agree?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2012,13:57) BD, you said:
Quote Actually it really only means to be a true Believer in God just as Jesus said “Eternal Life is to know the Only True God” That is not all that Jesus said, is it??? He said this:
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.I want you to see how you only wrote the first part of the sentence. Something is keeping you from seeing the fullness of just what is eternal life, BD.
1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
BD, do you have this eternal life that you wrote about? Do you believe IN THE SON OF GOD?
You think that to have eternal life is just to know the only True God but that is not really the full truth. 1 John 5 says this eternal life is in His Son, if you do not have the Son then you do not have eternal life.
Many Jews believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob but do not know God.
John 8:19 They were saying to him, “Where is your Father?” Yeshua answered and said to them, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.”
You cannot know the Father apart from knowing the Son of God, BD. Knowing both is eternal life.
KathiI didn't leave it out at all Jesus said eternal life was to know the only true God and the one he sent in other words the messenger and the message of his GOD, this in no way indicated that Jesus was God if it was it wouldn't say “and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”
You seem to have a huge problem with the word “and” with me and Mike. You say Moses and The Lamb doesn't really mean that and Jesus saying “The Only True God” “AND the Jesus Christ the one whom you have sent” Doesn't mean that.
You don't understand what “AND” means at all and Me “and” MIKE realize this about you.
BD,
Can you say that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? Can you say that Jesus is the only begotten God? You seem to shy away from that by calling Him 'the messenger' as if that is all He is…a 'carrier' of sorts. Did your dad call you a messenger or a son? Are you just a messenger of your father, or a son of your father. Would you feel degraded if your father introduced you only as his messenger to his friends? Doesn't that seem weird and suspicious that you shy away from the main identity of Jesus, the foundational truth that the church is built on?I think you should re-read this thread if you think that I do not recognize that Jesus is not the one true God 'the Father.' I recognize Jesus not as God the Father, but as God the Son, the Only Begotten God. So, when you see God mentioned and it clearly pertains to the Father and then you see Jesus mentioned, you can understand Jesus as the one true Only Begotten God. Eternal life is to know the one true God (the Father) AND the one true Only Begotten God (Jesus Christ). See how that word 'and' is there, plain as day?
Quote I didn't leave it out at all Jesus said eternal life was to know the only true God and the one he sent in other words the messenger and the message of his GOD,…
And what is the testimony (message) of His God, BD?1 John 5:9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
So, BD, do you see how you do not believe in the Son of God or know Him? You call Him a messenger but not an only begotten son, a literal son.
Learn the message of God, BD, eternal life is in His Son, the Only Begotten God. He who does not believe this makes God, the Father, a liar.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 18 2012,12:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 16 2012,14:44) Mike,
I considered what you said but when looking at the context and the events leading up to this and who the 144,000 were, I believe this is a new song from an old song to acknowledge the Lamb with the Father as together as their one almighty deliverer.
Kathi,If it was called “The Song of the Lamb”, then you could be right, although it would still be doubtful and contradict other scriptures.
But fortunately, we don't even have to go there, since the song is called “The Song of Moses and the Lamb“. Whatever meaning you apply to the Lamb in this case will also have to be applied to Moses. So if the song is sung BY the Lamb, then it is also sung BY Moses.
On the other hand, if the song is in worship TO the Lamb, then it is ALSO in worship TO Moses. If the song acknowledges the Lamb together with the Father as the one Almighty Deliverer, it must ALSO acknowledge Moses as such.
Do you agree?
Mike,
Net notes:Thus, in Rev 15:3-4, when John refers to God as “holy,” using the term ὅσιος in a context where the emphasis is on both God and Christ, there might be an implicit connection between divinity and the Messiah. This is bolstered by the fact that the Lamb is referred to in other contexts as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (cf. 1:5; 17:14; 19:16 and perhaps 11:15; G. K. Beale, Revelation [NIGTC], 796-97).
And then this, from here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel….ghlight
Rev 15:3The song of Moses (την ωιδην του Μωυσεως). Ex 14:31; 15:1-19 . A song of victory like that of Moses after crossing the Red Sea.
And the song of the Lamb (την ωιδην του αρνιου). A separate note of victory like that of Moses, though one song, not two. Charles finds it impossible to reconcile the two expressions, if genuine, but it is a needless objection. The words come from the O.T.: “great” (μεγαλα) from Ps 111:2 , “wonderful” (θαυμαστα) from Ps 139:14 , “O Lord God the Almighty” (Κυριε ο θεος ο παντοκρατωρ) from Am 4:13 (Re 4:8 ), “righteous and true” (δικαια κα αληθινα) from De 32:4 , “Thou King of the ages” (ο βασιλευς των αιωνων) like Jer 10:10; 1Ti 1:17 . Some MSS. have “the king of the saints” and some “the king of the nations,” like Jer 10:7 . John thus combines in Hebraic tone the expressions of the old and the new in the song to the Glorified Messiah.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,13:59) BD,
Can you say that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? Can you say that Jesus is the only begotten God? You seem to shy away from that by calling Him 'the messenger' as if that is all He is…a 'carrier' of sorts. Did your dad call you a messenger or a son? Are you just a messenger of your father, or a son of your father. Would you feel degraded if your father introduced you only as his messenger to his friends? Doesn't that seem weird and suspicious that you shy away from the main identity of Jesus, the foundational truth that the church is built on?I think you should re-read this thread if you think that I do not recognize that Jesus is not the one true God 'the Father.' I recognize Jesus not as God the Father, but as God the Son, the Only Begotten God. So, when you see God mentioned and it clearly pertains to the Father and then you see Jesus mentioned, you can understand Jesus as the one true Only Begotten God. Eternal life is to know the one true God (the Father) AND the one true Only Begotten God (Jesus Christ). See how that word 'and' is there, plain as day?
Quote I didn't leave it out at all Jesus said eternal life was to know the only true God and the one he sent in other words the messenger and the message of his GOD,…
And what is the testimony (message) of His God, BD?1 John 5:9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
So, BD, do you see how you do not believe in the Son of God or know Him? You call Him a messenger but not an only begotten son, a literal son.
Learn the message of God, BD, eternal life is in His Son, the Only Begotten God. He who does not believe this makes God, the Father, a liar.
So you do believe that God gave a testimony concening His Son?If you believe this then you understand that God is not a designation give to His “Son”. The fact is you d not Believe that God is THE ONLY TRUE GOD, you keep saying against scripture that Jesus is another God
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2012,23:24) Thus, in Rev 15:3-4, when John refers to God as “holy,” using the term ὅσιος in a context where the emphasis is on both God and Christ………
Poppycock. The song was either sung BY Moses AND the Lamb, or the song was sung TO Moses AND the Lamb.I understand that this one is a low blow to the Trinitarians, Kathi. I also understand that Trinitarians are KNOWN for coming up with asinine justifications to explain their nonsensical claims.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2012,23:24) John thus combines in Hebraic tone the expressions of the old and the new in the song to the Glorified Messiah.
More poppycock.Kathi, I know that as a person who believes Jesus is God Almighty, you will be able to find a PLETHURA of information designed to twist and alter this passage – which clearly lists the Lamb and Moses as “co-writers” of a song to their God. But I want you to use YOUR OWN BRAIN for a second, and consider what I said before: It is the song OF Moses AND OF the Lamb. That means the words are either sang ABOUT Moses AND the Lamb, or they are sang TO Moses AND the Lamb.
There are no two ways about it, Kathi.
Remember that since Moses' song in the wilderness was sung TO his God, the song could never have been called “The Song of Moses AND of God”.
It is the same here. If Moses sang this song TO the Lamb, it could never be called “The Song of Moses AND of the Lamb”.
And the fact that your two sources would even dare to claim such a nonsensical thing just goes to show that they know this scripture clearly depicts the Lamb calling his own God “Lord God Almighty” and “Lord”, and saying that He alone is holy and will be worshiped.
This song is a crushing blow to your doctrine, Kathi, and so I will expect you to post many more sources who try to justify nonsensical claims of Moses singing this song TO his God, the Lamb.
I most likely won't even bother to read them, so don't waste your time posting them.
It is what it is, and there is no amount of “fancy talk” that will change “white” to “black” on this one.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 19 2012,01:14) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,13:59) BD,
Can you say that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? Can you say that Jesus is the only begotten God? You seem to shy away from that by calling Him 'the messenger' as if that is all He is…a 'carrier' of sorts. Did your dad call you a messenger or a son? Are you just a messenger of your father, or a son of your father. Would you feel degraded if your father introduced you only as his messenger to his friends? Doesn't that seem weird and suspicious that you shy away from the main identity of Jesus, the foundational truth that the church is built on?I think you should re-read this thread if you think that I do not recognize that Jesus is not the one true God 'the Father.' I recognize Jesus not as God the Father, but as God the Son, the Only Begotten God. So, when you see God mentioned and it clearly pertains to the Father and then you see Jesus mentioned, you can understand Jesus as the one true Only Begotten God. Eternal life is to know the one true God (the Father) AND the one true Only Begotten God (Jesus Christ). See how that word 'and' is there, plain as day?
Quote I didn't leave it out at all Jesus said eternal life was to know the only true God and the one he sent in other words the messenger and the message of his GOD,…
And what is the testimony (message) of His God, BD?1 John 5:9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
So, BD, do you see how you do not believe in the Son of God or know Him? You call Him a messenger but not an only begotten son, a literal son.
Learn the message of God, BD, eternal life is in His Son, the Only Begotten God. He who does not believe this makes God, the Father, a liar.
So you do believe that God gave a testimony concening His Son?If you believe this then you understand that God is not a designation give to His “Son”. The fact is you d not Believe that God is THE ONLY TRUE GOD, you keep saying against scripture that Jesus is another God
BD,John 1:1 speaks of two who are God also and Jesus says they are one. I believe a perfect Father God and His perfect offspring God would be nothing short of one perfect unity otherwise one or both would cease to be perfect.
Do you believe in the Son of God, BD?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2012,19:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2012,23:24) Thus, in Rev 15:3-4, when John refers to God as “holy,” using the term ὅσιος in a context where the emphasis is on both God and Christ………
Poppycock. The song was either sung BY Moses AND the Lamb, or the song was sung TO Moses AND the Lamb.I understand that this one is a low blow to the Trinitarians, Kathi. I also understand that Trinitarians are KNOWN for coming up with asinine justifications to explain their nonsensical claims.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2012,23:24) John thus combines in Hebraic tone the expressions of the old and the new in the song to the Glorified Messiah.
More poppycock.Kathi, I know that as a person who believes Jesus is God Almighty, you will be able to find a PLETHURA of information designed to twist and alter this passage – which clearly lists the Lamb and Moses as “co-writers” of a song to their God. But I want you to use YOUR OWN BRAIN for a second, and consider what I said before: It is the song OF Moses AND OF the Lamb. That means the words are either sang ABOUT Moses AND the Lamb, or they are sang TO Moses AND the Lamb.
There are no two ways about it, Kathi.
Remember that since Moses' song in the wilderness was sung TO his God, the song could never have been called “The Song of Moses AND of God”.
It is the same here. If Moses sang this song TO the Lamb, it could never be called “The Song of Moses AND of the Lamb”.
And the fact that your two sources would even dare to claim such a nonsensical thing just goes to show that they know this scripture clearly depicts the Lamb calling his own God “Lord God Almighty” and “Lord”, and saying that He alone is holy and will be worshiped.
This song is a crushing blow to your doctrine, Kathi, and so I will expect you to post many more sources who try to justify nonsensical claims of Moses singing this song TO his God, the Lamb.
I most likely won't even bother to read them, so don't waste your time posting them.
It is what it is, and there is no amount of “fancy talk” that will change “white” to “black” on this one.
Mike,
There is support for either side. What I do believe is not crushed either way. I believe in only one Almighty God, YHWH the Father and only one Almighty Begotten God, YHWH the Son. The two are in unity as YHWH the God of gods and the Lord of lords.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,22:29) John 1:1 speaks of two who are God also and Jesus says they are one
1:1 speaks of two who are called “theos” – only one of whom is called “THE theos”.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,22:32) Mike,
There is support for either side.
I don't see any “support” for your side of this coin, Kathi. All I see are nonsensical claims designed to satisfy people who want to hear only what tickles their itching ears.But you are an intelligent person, Kathi. Surely you do not believe that “The Song of Moses and of the Lamb” refers to a song Moses sang TO the Lamb, right?
Mike,
Nevertheless, John chapter 1 speaks of the only begotten God. John 1:18 only one speaks of one God of whom is called 'the theos' and it is the only begotten one, yet there are two 'theos' mentioned.What? Did you mean to post this in the “Word” thread? (Let me know if that's the case, and I will delete these two posts from this thread.)
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,15:29) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 19 2012,01:14) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,13:59) BD,
Can you say that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? Can you say that Jesus is the only begotten God? You seem to shy away from that by calling Him 'the messenger' as if that is all He is…a 'carrier' of sorts. Did your dad call you a messenger or a son? Are you just a messenger of your father, or a son of your father. Would you feel degraded if your father introduced you only as his messenger to his friends? Doesn't that seem weird and suspicious that you shy away from the main identity of Jesus, the foundational truth that the church is built on?I think you should re-read this thread if you think that I do not recognize that Jesus is not the one true God 'the Father.' I recognize Jesus not as God the Father, but as God the Son, the Only Begotten God. So, when you see God mentioned and it clearly pertains to the Father and then you see Jesus mentioned, you can understand Jesus as the one true Only Begotten God. Eternal life is to know the one true God (the Father) AND the one true Only Begotten God (Jesus Christ). See how that word 'and' is there, plain as day?
Quote I didn't leave it out at all Jesus said eternal life was to know the only true God and the one he sent in other words the messenger and the message of his GOD,…
And what is the testimony (message) of His God, BD?1 John 5:9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
So, BD, do you see how you do not believe in the Son of God or know Him? You call Him a messenger but not an only begotten son, a literal son.
Learn the message of God, BD, eternal life is in His Son, the Only Begotten God. He who does not believe this makes God, the Father, a liar.
So you do believe that God gave a testimony concening His Son?If you believe this then you understand that God is not a designation give to His “Son”. The fact is you d not Believe that God is THE ONLY TRUE GOD, you keep saying against scripture that Jesus is another God
BD,John 1:1 speaks of two who are God also and Jesus says they are one. I believe a perfect Father God and His perfect offspring God would be nothing short of one perfect unity otherwise one or both would cease to be perfect.
Do you believe in the Son of God, BD?
The question really is do you believe in the “sons of God”?You seem to only approve of Jesus in this respect although the bible gives God sons by the tons, you write off all of them as metaphors or analogies and say only Jesus is the literal son of God. So I believe in the context of “son of God” more than you do.
Besides that you do not give any meaning to the son of God at all even if Jesus was the only son of God you give him equality and capacity with God meaning Jesus is more than just a just a son cause you do not understand that “GOD” is not just a name it is a “Title” a designation of who is the MOST HIGH and SUPREME this is why Jesus said “The only true God” Jesus is not worthy of that TITLE of the “ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD” Jesus has not had an eternal life because according to the scriptures “Jesus DIED” tell me please when did God Almighty cease to be ALIVE?
BD,
Again, do you have the Son of God and believe in the Son of God? The ONLY Begotten Son? Or is he just one of many/just one in a large number of sons to you?1 John 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2012,12:37) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,22:29) John 1:1 speaks of two who are God also and Jesus says they are one
1:1 speaks of two who are called “theos” – only one of whom is called “THE theos”.
Mike,
I meant to post the above post right in this thread in response to your post that I am quoting here.Follow along, sonny
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2012,12:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,22:32) Mike,
There is support for either side.
I don't see any “support” for your side of this coin, Kathi. All I see are nonsensical claims designed to satisfy people who want to hear only what tickles their itching ears.But you are an intelligent person, Kathi. Surely you do not believe that “The Song of Moses and of the Lamb” refers to a song Moses sang TO the Lamb, right?
You need to read more commentaries, then, Mike. There is plenty of support for the Lamb being honored in the 'Song of the Lamb.'Here is one of my favorites 'Song of the Lamb:'
Enjoy!
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2012,14:58) BD,
Again, do you have the Son of God and believe in the Son of God? The ONLY Begotten Son? Or is he just one of many/just one in a large number of sons to you?1 John 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
Once again Kathi you are skating over reality. God has given many testimonies of many sons and none of them are literal son. So if you do not believe God you have made Him a liar,do you even know what it means to be th son of God?Look at what Jesus says:
Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.So how is it you say you know the son? Moses was a son of God and revealed God to those he was sent to if you rejected Moses you rejected God and had no eternal life, do you understand or do you just throw away thousands of years of history and conclude that history only starts with Jesus?
Matthew 19:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Who gave the commandments? Moses so if you have what Moses gave you have eternal life says Jesus, is Jesus a liar? No.
Moses was the son of God in him was Eternal Life as well because the Law is good and the law gives life.
You just need to grow and growth doesn't always feel good
BD,
you said:Quote God has given many testimonies of many sons and none of them are literal son. So if you do not believe God you have made Him a liar,do you even know what it means to be th son of God? There is one who is a literal Son and He is the only begotten Son/only begotten God.
There is definitely a distinction between the only begotten Son/only begotten God and Moses. Read this:Hebrews 3: 5[Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
As you said, “You just need to grow and growth doesn't always feel good.”
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 21 2012,22:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2012,12:40) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,22:32) Mike,
There is support for either side.
I don't see any “support” for your side of this coin, Kathi. All I see are nonsensical claims designed to satisfy people who want to hear only what tickles their itching ears.But you are an intelligent person, Kathi. Surely you do not believe that “The Song of Moses and of the Lamb” refers to a song Moses sang TO the Lamb, right?
You need to read more commentaries, then, Mike. There is plenty of support for the Lamb being honored in the 'Song of the Lamb.'
There is also plenty of support in this world for Satan being God Almighty. But is it SCRIPTURAL support?Seriously, Kathi? What does a song, written by someone who thinks Jesus is God Almighty, have to do with the points in my quote above?
(It is when you go searching for ANYTHING to support your theory that I know you're stumped.
)
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