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Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2012,09:59) BD,
you said:Quote There is ONLY ONE GOD Jesus is not God and is only called the only begotten as a metaphor or analogy the simple proof is theBible says that Isaacx was theonly begotten of Abraham and it is completely untrue in accuracy but as an analogy or metaphor can be used. The Bible calls others the firstborn of God is the Bible true in that regard? Yes or No?
Isaac is the only begotten of Abraham ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE. Ishmael and Abe's other sons that came much later after Isaac were not begotten ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.
There is a nation that is called the 'firstborn' of God, a king that is called the 'firstborn' of God, Ephraim was called the 'firstborn' son but obviously wasn't born first, Manasseh was born first…these are the three incidents that come to the top of my mind where 'firstborn' is not literally the first offspring from the womb. Isaac IS the first offspring from the womb ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE, not Ishmael. Ishmael was the first offspring of Abraham but NOT the firstborn according to the covenantal promise of God. Do you see the difference between Isaac and Ishmael?
The nation of Israel, the King David and Ephraim were designated as the 'firstborn' and we know that Israel did NOT come as the first offspring of God, don't we BD? We also know that David did NOT come as the first offspring of God…we know his father was Jesse. We also know that Ishmael was not the first covenantal son of the promise through which God was going to give to Abraham through Sarah.
So, now, we have Jesus as the Firstborn of/over all creation. He is the only one of all that have the title 'firstborn' that is also called the 'only begotten Son' and 'only begotten God.' If it were a metaphor…tell me who you think is the literal firstborn of God. Please show me with scripture that speaks of another that is literally born of God, BD. Or show me the scripture that proves that there is no literal firstborn of God.
BTW, I can think of three 'firstborns' examples that are not literally the first offspring to be born but there are myriads of examples of 'firstborns' that ARE. So, unless the scriptures make it clear that someone is called a 'firstborn' son as an exception to a natural 'firstborn' son, then we assume that the 'firstborn' would be a natural and NOT 'designated but not really natural,' firstborn.
Heb 11:17
By faith, Abraham offered Isaac during his testing, and laid his only son on the altar, whom he had received by The Promise.
KathiNice try but there is absolutely no escaping the fact that the scripture:
Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.This was not Jesus speaking so if the speaker (David) was speaking God had a Begotten son at that time but you will not accept that you will conjure up an excuse or say it was prophetic speech referring to Jesus, am I right? Problem is it was hundreds of years before anyone would have even hear of Jesus.
Also it does not say ONLY BEGOTTEN according to the promise it says he offered up his ONLY BEGOTTEN son that's what the actual scripture says so why are you rewriting it?
Now I will ask you again: Genesis 22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.Is the statement actual and true or did Abraham have another son who was Ishmael?
Notice there is no mention of “according to the promise” the fact is the Jewish scribes changed the words
And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #13)I know you don't believe the Quaran right? but the Bible says the same thing.
Jeremiah 8:8
American Standard Version (ASV)
8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of Jehovah is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes hath wrought falsely.
This is why I am telling you to say Only Begotten son does not mean literally because even according to your logic Jesus could be the Only Begotten son of the New Covenant Promise.
If Jesus was the literal son of God “eternally begotten” as you say then answer this and this should conclude this entire issue
Acts 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.So what day is “this day” in eternity? GAME OVER
Game over?
Have you forgotten with whom you're dealing, Asana? 
Here, I'll answer for Kathi:
BD, as I've told you many times, YES Jesus was begotten on a particular “day” (although the Hebrew word “yowm” can mean a literal day, or any “period of time”). But just because he was begotten (brought out of Jehovah) doesn't mean he didn't already always exist within Jehovah before being brought out.
How'd I do, Kathi?
Bottom line is that Kathi can CLAIM Jesus existed from eternity within Jehovah until her face turns blue. It still won't make it true, and there is no scripture that alludes to such a thing, while there are many scriptures that speak of Jesus' beginning.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2012,23:12) No matter how you twist it, the Jews worshiped the Father and the Memra of YHWH, Jesus knew He was the Memra that the Jews worshiped with the Father and thought of as the Memra of YHWH. Jesus received worship from many and gave worship to His Father.
John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.You claim that “the Jews” worshiped Jehovah AND His Memra, right?
You claim that Jesus IS this “Memra”, right?
So if Jesus included himself in with “the Jews” who worshiped Jehovah AND His Memra, then Jesus was saying he worshiped Jehovah AND himself.
There are no two ways around it, Kathi. You are stuck here.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2012,23:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,21:16) That would add up to TWO Almighty Gods, Kathi. There is but ONE Almighty God. Jesus is that One's Son.
Mike,
You claim to believe in and serve one almighty theos and one mighty theos, right? That would be two theos that you believe in, Mike.
I believe in the existence of MANY theos's, Kathi. But I know how to distinguish those gods from the God who created them. Do you?I know which of those many gods is the Most High God. Do you? (Hint: The only Most High God is the FATHER OF our Lord Jesus Christ.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 03 2012,04:35) Game over? Have you forgotten with whom you're dealing, Asana? Here, I'll answer for Kathi:
BD, as I've told you many times, YES Jesus was begotten on a particular “day” (although the Hebrew word “yowm” can mean a literal day, or any “period of time”). But just because he was begotten (brought out of Jehovah) doesn't mean he didn't already always exist within Jehovah before being brought out.
How'd I do, Kathi?
Bottom line is that Kathi can CLAIM Jesus existed from eternity within Jehovah until her face turns blue. It still won't make it true, and there is no scripture that alludes to such a thing, while there are many scriptures that speak of Jesus' beginning.
I will answer the pseudo kathi's responseThen Kathi he would not have been “eternally” begotten
BD,
you said:Quote Then Kathi he would not have been “eternally” begotten If by 'begotten' it means a 'birth' in a sense, not a conception, He could always have existed within the Father before being 'birthed' in whatever manner that would have been. Being an only begotten Son/only begotten God, implies one of the same kind as the one who beget Him…and begotten 'God' implies an eternal nature. One can't be a begotten God if one did not exist eternally. If one did not exist eternally, one cannot be a God, begotten or otherwise.
So, eternally begotten can mean different things to different people. I even demonstrate that in another thread on here. From what I can tell, the early church uses the term to stress that His begettal was before the ages, during eternity, and was not 'first' begotten through Mary during the ages.
As to Isaac, I don't know why you ask why I am changing the scriptures. In Genesis and Hebrews it definitely speaks of Isaac in regards to 'the promise.' When Isaac is referred to as an only son, it is in that sense…he was the firstborn child of the nations that Abraham was to be the father of according to the covenant promise of God. Ishmael was not the firstborn of the nations that God had promised Abraham in the covenant.
Gen 17
15Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16“I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” 17Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” 19But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20“As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21“But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.” 22When He finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham.Mike,
Quote I believe in the existence of MANY theos's, Kathi. But I know how to distinguish those gods from the God who created them. Do you? I know which of those many gods is the Most High God. Do you? (Hint: The only Most High God is the FATHER OF our Lord Jesus Christ.)
You think that YHWH is only the God of gods and not the Lord of lords. This is one thing we differ in. Also, you believe and will serve many gods and I will believe in and serve one God, the Father and one Lord, the only begotten God, Jesus Christ. You are even prepared to serve Deborah as one of your many gods which truly is against scriptures. There are no scriptures that say any saint will be called 'god' in heaven. We will be a kingdom of priests however, and there are elders, 'beasts' and angels and of course God the Father and the only begotten God, Jesus Christ.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2012,06:54) You think that YHWH is only the God of gods and not the Lord of lords.
Wrong. I KNOW that Jehovah is the God of all other gods, and the Lord of all other lords, INCLUDING Jesus, who was also appointed by his own God (and our God) to be a Lord over other lords.But unlike you, I don't nonsensically believe that the one Jehovah appointed over us as Lord is the Jehovah who appointed him over us as Lord in the first place. That's just nonsense, Kathi.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2012,06:54) You are even prepared to serve Deborah as one of your many gods which truly is against scriptures.
Deborah is refered to as a god in scripture. She was the ruler of Israel for a while and had many citizens and soldiers who served her. But neither I nor they illogically think/thought she was the God who created all things, and therefore won't/didn't serve her as if she were God Almighty.You won't change my Biblical understanding of how the word “god” was used by trying to “politically correct” me into your understanding. I realize that it is PC to believe that there LITERALLY exists only one god, but nothing could be further from the SCRIPTURAL truth of the matter. The words we in English translate as “god” are the Hebrew words “el” and “elohim”. And, scripturally speaking, there exist MANY elohim – some of them spirit beings, and others of them human beings.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2012,06:54) There are no scriptures that say any saint will be called 'god' in heaven.
There are scriptures that say the elect will become like Jesus, ie: powerful spirit beings. Biblically speaking, powerful spirit beings like Jesus are sometimes called gods.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2012,06:54) We will be a kingdom of priests however…..
The elect will be BROTHERS of, and JOINT HEIRS with Jesus. They have been given the right to become SONS of God, and BROTHERS of Jesus.Kathi, do you suppose you can some day be the SISTER of God Almighty?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2012,06:46) begotten 'God' implies an eternal nature.
The word “begotten”, in and of itself, most definitely argues AGAINST an eternal nature.If Jesus is the only begotten god, then he is a god (mighty one) who was at one time begotten (brought forth into existence from a state of non-existence).
Mike,
You just go ahead and pray to all your gods to save you. For me I will pray to the Father through the Son, not apart from the Son and trust THEM for my salvation, not just Him. We will just have to agree to disagree.Also, make up your own story about how God must beget and what. A true begotten God existed eternally…you can argue with someone else about it if you disagree. I believe that Jesus is a true begotten God and eternally existed in an active sense within the Father and that is why the Father is an eternal Father. I do believe that I have the tradition of the early church on my side here…Greeks and Aramaics. Think what you want.
Peace
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2012,17:35) I do believe that I have the tradition of the early church on my side here…
Matthew 15
Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but traditions taught by men.’”I apparently don't hold the traditions of men in as high esteem as you do, Kathi.
I would like you to answer my question from before, though:
Kathi, do you hope to some day be the SISTER of God Almighty, or the DAUGHTER of God Almighty?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2012,17:35) Mike,
You just go ahead and pray to all your gods to save you
I already told you that using the PC belief that there LITERALLY exists only ONE god against me is futile.I welcome this discussion so I can educate others on the true scriptural teaching of many gods, in heaven and on earth. In fact, I've recently started a thread called, Indeed there are many gods, in the hopes of educating others about what the scriptures actually teach on the subject.
And btw, I pray to the ONE God Jehovah Most High. I pray to Him THROUGH His Holy Servant Jesus Christ – as Jesus taught, and as the Apostles did.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2012,23:46) BD,
you said:Quote Then Kathi he would not have been “eternally” begotten If by 'begotten' it means a 'birth' in a sense, not a conception, He could always have existed within the Father before being 'birthed' in whatever manner that would have been. Being an only begotten Son/only begotten God, implies one of the same kind as the one who beget Him…and begotten 'God' implies an eternal nature. One can't be a begotten God if one did not exist eternally. If one did not exist eternally, one cannot be a God, begotten or otherwise.
So, eternally begotten can mean different things to different people. I even demonstrate that in another thread on here. From what I can tell, the early church uses the term to stress that His begettal was before the ages, during eternity, and was not 'first' begotten through Mary during the ages.
As to Isaac, I don't know why you ask why I am changing the scriptures. In Genesis and Hebrews it definitely speaks of Isaac in regards to 'the promise.' When Isaac is referred to as an only son, it is in that sense…he was the firstborn child of the nations that Abraham was to be the father of according to the covenant promise of God. Ishmael was not the firstborn of the nations that God had promised Abraham in the covenant.
Gen 17
15Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16“I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” 17Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” 19But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20“As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21“But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.” 22When He finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham.
Yo will make up anything to make your point digestable. Isaac was never the ONLY Child of Abraham EVER, If you say according to the promise then you are saying according to thepromise that is not what it says in Genesis od making a covenant with Isaac doesn't eliminate the birth of Ishmael so I asked you was Isaac literally the ONLY son of Abraham or not? You keep playing games instead of seeking truth you keep studying posts looking for loopholes but won't answer questions that are pretty straight forward.Did Abraham have a son before Isaac?
Could Isaac have ever been literally the only son of Abraham or the Firstborn of Abraham?If you can be honest in these simple things perhaps you can be trusted in the greater things.
BD,
Isaac was the ONLY child of Abraham's that God established His covenant with, for an everlasting covenant for him and his descendants after him. Abraham did have a son before Isaac but not a son that God established His covenant with that was an everlasting covenant for Isaac's descendants. There was ONLY ONE SON that God did that through. Isaac was the only legitimate firstborn and only legitimate son of Abraham with Sarah. Ishmael was never a firstborn son of Abraham with Sarah.Mike,
Quote
And btw, I pray to the ONE God Jehovah Most High. I pray to Him THROUGH His Holy Servant Jesus Christ – as Jesus taught, and as the Apostles did.So you make mention of two theos in your prayers, not more than two and not less than two. True or False?
You have two theos from which creation came, not more than two and not less than two. True or False?
You also have two theos from which your eternal salvation is made possible not more than two and not less than two. True or False?Kathi,
1. True. I mention two theos in my prayers. I pray to the God who created all things through His servant Jesus Christ.
2. False. There is only one theos FROM whom are all things. Read 1 Cor 8:6 again.
3. Same answer as above. My salvation comes FROM the One God who created all things. He has chosen to save me THROUGH His servant Jesus Christ.
Kathi, I get it. Jesus is called a god in scripture. And of all the many other gods taught about in scripture, Jesus is the closer to the God who created him than anyone else. He is the second most powerful being in existence. There are many things that ONLY he and his own God will have in common.
Try not to use these things Jesus has in common with his own God and Creator as a way to equalize the two. King David is/will be closer to Jesus than I will ever be. They will end up with many more things in common than I and Jesus will have. But those things in common won't ever make King David BE Jesus, or even equal to him.
You can easily detect these things when it comes to ANYBODY ELSE except for Jesus. Why is it so hard for you to see the same things in the case of Jesus, Kathi?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2012,13:43) BD,
Isaac was the ONLY child of Abraham's that God established His covenant with, for an everlasting covenant for him and his descendants after him. Abraham did have a son before Isaac but not a son that God established His covenant with that was an everlasting covenant for Isaac's descendants. There was ONLY ONE SON that God did that through. Isaac was the only legitimate firstborn and only legitimate son of Abraham with Sarah. Ishmael was never a firstborn son of Abraham with Sarah.
Wrong KathiIshmael had the very first covenant that God made with Abraham and that was the covenant of circumcision and it is an Everlasting Covenant and of course Ishmael was legitimate Hagar was his WIFE you are sorely misled on this subject.
Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham and the Law states he must be honored as such and I gave you the scriptures for that do you need them again?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2012,14:02) Kathi, 1. True. I mention two theos in my prayers. I pray to the God who created all things through His servant Jesus Christ.
2. False. There is only one theos FROM whom are all things. Read 1 Cor 8:6 again.
3. Same answer as above. My salvation comes FROM the One God who created all things. He has chosen to save me THROUGH His servant Jesus Christ.
Kathi, I get it. Jesus is called a god in scripture. And of all the many other gods taught about in scripture, Jesus is the closer to the God who created him than anyone else. He is the second most powerful being in existence. There are many things that ONLY he and his own God will have in common.
Try not to use these things Jesus has in common with his own God and Creator as a way to equalize the two. King David is/will be closer to Jesus than I will ever be. They will end up with many more things in common than I and Jesus will have. But those things in common won't ever make King David BE Jesus, or even equal to him.
You can easily detect these things when it comes to ANYBODY ELSE except for Jesus. Why is it so hard for you to see the same things in the case of Jesus, Kathi?
So true, she literally becomes blinded by the light…lolDoesn't she know that in heaven they will be singing songs of Moses and the lamb, Moses must be pretty important as well
Revelation 15:3
and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the nations.Notice Moses even gets top billing here and by name
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