- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2012,02:29) …if they were both named YHWH from all time then Jesus always had the name so at what point did the Father have a name independent of Jesus to give him His name….?
Brilliant!
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2012,03:29) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2012,16:33) BD,
Before Jesus came as the Christ, His name was YHWH…the Father gave Him His own name…both were YHWH. Then after YHWH, the Son, became flesh He was also called YahuShua, some spell it Yeshua, YahShua. The name YHWH is YaHuWaH or YaHuWeH. There is a 'Yah' in YahuShua, the name Jesus. So, I would say that is the Father part of Christ's name after He became flesh. That 'Yah” is the Father's name in YahShua. That is how I understand it.God put His name in Abram when it changed to AbrAHam and Sarai when it changed to SarAH. This is the way it seems to me but I haven't got any Hebrew training.
Ystill won't tell me what the name of the Father is if they were both named YHWH from all time then Jesus always had the name so at what point did the Father have a name independent of Jesus to give him a His name and what was that name the Father had that Jesus did not have?
BD,
I don't know that we are told when the Son who was in the beginning with the Father was given the name of YHWH. Possibly when He was begotten before the ages. This did not mean that He did not exist before He was begotten before the ages…it just is a possibility that He wasn't named before He was begotten. One that is given the name that carries the meaning of eternal existence must have eternally existed.In human regards, a child can certainly exist before being begotten/born without a name given to him/her. Just because a name was 'given' to Jesus didn't mean that He didn't exist before a name was given Him.
Again, we aren't told when He was given the Father's name.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2012,09:49) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 29 2012,03:29) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2012,16:33) BD,
Before Jesus came as the Christ, His name was YHWH…the Father gave Him His own name…both were YHWH. Then after YHWH, the Son, became flesh He was also called YahuShua, some spell it Yeshua, YahShua. The name YHWH is YaHuWaH or YaHuWeH. There is a 'Yah' in YahuShua, the name Jesus. So, I would say that is the Father part of Christ's name after He became flesh. That 'Yah” is the Father's name in YahShua. That is how I understand it.God put His name in Abram when it changed to AbrAHam and Sarai when it changed to SarAH. This is the way it seems to me but I haven't got any Hebrew training.
Ystill won't tell me what the name of the Father is if they were both named YHWH from all time then Jesus always had the name so at what point did the Father have a name independent of Jesus to give him a His name and what was that name the Father had that Jesus did not have?
BD,
I don't know that we are told when the Son who was in the beginning with the Father was given the name of YHWH. Possibly when He was begotten before the ages. This did not mean that He did not exist before He was begotten before the ages…it just is a possibility that He wasn't named before He was begotten. One that is given the name that carries the meaning of eternal existence must have eternally existed.In human regards, a child can certainly exist before being begotten/born without a name given to him/her. Just because a name was 'given' to Jesus didn't mean that He didn't exist before a name was given Him.
Again, we aren't told when He was given the Father's name.
Okay,so your notion is there is this point in time where this begotten being has no name like when a Baby is born and then gets a name, correct?
Then you say that “One that is given the name that carries the meaning of eternal existence must have eternally existed”
Ae you saying that God could not give a creation a name to reflect his own nature without it meaning that the creation itself is not HIM? Didn't God say “let us make man in our image”? That image could reflect God without being God, correct? When man was created there was a time after his creation in which he had no name so God gave man a name too.
This is the time I want you to focus on for you to understand what we have been discussing all along. There is ONLY ONE who was never given a name because there was no being to name HIM. You see when we talk about the beginning that doesn't apply to God because eternity has no beginning.
So if Jesus was given a name at any time then he could not have been eternally YHWH, even if you argue he is the first and last to get the honor of the name that was given to him it just proves that the name didn't belong to him and so the GLORY of THE NAME was not with him until he received it from the ONLY ONE WHO COULD GIVE IT and this is who is called THE MOST HIGH and THE GIVER of GIFTS, THE FATHER of LIGHT.
2 Corinthians 1:3
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;This description is not about a unity of 2 being one it is about a SINGLE BEING CALLED “GOD”
BD,
I did not say there was a time when the only begotten God didn't have a name, I said that there may have been a time that He hadn't been given it yet.As an earthly example, again, I could have decided the names for all five of my kids before I even conceived the first. Each child was officially given the name when the birth certificate was written AFTER he/she was begotten/born, not before.
Quote 2 Corinthians 1:3
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;This description is not about a unity of 2 being one it is about a SINGLE BEING CALLED “GOD”
Actually, this description is about a unity of 2 being God and Lord, a single being called 'God' and another single being called 'Lord.'
Our one supreme authority (not authoritIES) happens to be one God and one Lord.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2012,15:12) BD,
I did not say there was a time when the only begotten God didn't have a name, I said that there may have been a time that He hadn't been given it yet.As an earthly example, again, I could have decided the names for all five of my kids before I even conceived the first. Each child was officially given the name when the birth certificate was written AFTER he/she was begotten/born, not before.
Quote 2 Corinthians 1:3
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;This description is not about a unity of 2 being one it is about a SINGLE BEING CALLED “GOD”
Actually, this description is about a unity of 2 being God and Lord, a single being called 'God' and another single being called 'Lord.'
Our one supreme authority (not authoritIES) happens to be one God and one Lord.
So during the time he hadn't been given “the name” yet, what was his name and what was the Name of the one who gave him the Name.You are saying that YHWH was a being who gave the name YHWH to another being whom we also call Jesus. Doesn't this mean that Jesus was not always named YHWH?
Wouldn't thatalso mean their is ONLY ONE ORGINAL YHWH?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2012,22:12) Actually, this description is about a unity of 2 being God and Lord, a single being called 'God' and another single being called 'Lord.'
Then wouldn't the unity of the two always be called “Lord God”?Why is the unity so often called by just the name of the “God” part of the unity?
Also, Jehovah put His name on the angel in Exodus, the Israelites, Jerusalem, etc.
Isaiah 43:6-7
Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth— everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2012,09:25) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2012,22:12) Actually, this description is about a unity of 2 being God and Lord, a single being called 'God' and another single being called 'Lord.'
Then wouldn't the unity of the two always be called “Lord God”?Why is the unity so often called by just the name of the “God” part of the unity?
Also, Jehovah put His name on the angel in Exodus, the Israelites, Jerusalem, etc.
Isaiah 43:6-7
Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth— everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”
BrilliantBD,
you said:Quote So during the time he hadn't been given “the name” yet, what was his name and what was the Name of the one who gave him the Name. You are saying that YHWH was a being who gave the name YHWH to another being whom we also call Jesus. Doesn't this mean that Jesus was not always named YHWH?
They are both always YHWH because they have always had that character of eternal existence. This name merely represents character.
Both always existed, so not just one original YHWH except in the unity sense.Quote Wouldn't thatalso mean their is ONLY ONE ORGINAL YHWH? It just means that one is the Father and the other is the Son. Their character of eternal existence, always existed.
Mike,
you ask:Quote Then wouldn't the unity of the two always be called “Lord God”? Obviously not.
Quote Why is the unity so often called by just the name of the “God” part of the unity? God would be used in the general sense there.
Quote Also, Jehovah put His name on the angel in Exodus, the Israelites, Jerusalem, etc. Isaiah 43:6-7
Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth— everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”That is different than having YHWH as your name.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2012,17:10) BD,
you said:Quote So during the time he hadn't been given “the name” yet, what was his name and what was the Name of the one who gave him the Name. You are saying that YHWH was a being who gave the name YHWH to another being whom we also call Jesus. Doesn't this mean that Jesus was not always named YHWH?
They are both always YHWH because they have always had that character of eternal existence. This name merely represents character.
Both always existed, so not just one original YHWH except in the unity sense.Quote Wouldn't thatalso mean their is ONLY ONE ORGINAL YHWH? It just means that one is the Father and the other is the Son. Their character of eternal existence, always existed.
But you admit that they both didn't have that name since it was GIVEN to Jesus. If Jesus always had this character then why would he have to be given a name which was already his character?Also ho would it be that Jesus turned out to be the son if one did not precede the other? You do realize that to be a father you would have to precede your offspring , correct?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2012,00:17) Mike,
you ask:Quote Then wouldn't the unity of the two always be called “Lord God”? Obviously not.
Hmmm……………Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2012,00:17) Quote Also, Jehovah put His name on the angel in Exodus, the Israelites, Jerusalem, etc. Isaiah 43:6-7
Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth— everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”That is different than having YHWH as your name.
Yet I only know of ONE who is named “YHWH”. You often CLAIM there is another, but I have seen no proof of this claim to date.Also Kathi, notice what else is said about those who are called by YHWH's name in the verse above. They are those that YHWH CREATED – those He FORMED and MADE.
Interesting, huh?
Now compare that to the ANGEL of God in Exodus:
Exodus 23:21
Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.WHOSE name is “in him”, Kathi? I don't read, “We have the SAME name” in this verse – do you?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 01 2012,01:35) Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2012,17:10) BD,
you said:Quote So during the time he hadn't been given “the name” yet, what was his name and what was the Name of the one who gave him the Name. You are saying that YHWH was a being who gave the name YHWH to another being whom we also call Jesus. Doesn't this mean that Jesus was not always named YHWH?
They are both always YHWH because they have always had that character of eternal existence. This name merely represents character.
Both always existed, so not just one original YHWH except in the unity sense.Quote Wouldn't thatalso mean their is ONLY ONE ORGINAL YHWH? It just means that one is the Father and the other is the Son. Their character of eternal existence, always existed.
But you admit that they both didn't have that name since it was GIVEN to Jesus. If Jesus always had this character then why would he have to be given a name which was already his character?Also ho would it be that Jesus turned out to be the son if one did not precede the other? You do realize that to be a father you would have to precede your offspring , correct?
BD,
You are belaboring a point that we aren't given specifics on in scripture. The name was always His to have, after being begotten, He received it…a theory.Quote Also ho would it be that Jesus turned out to be the son if one did not precede the other? You do realize that to be a father you would have to precede your offspring , correct? The Father did not precede the Son as far as existence. The difference comes in that the Son was within the Father and was the only son begotten from the Father. The Father wasn't begotten from anyone. That is what makes one the Father and one the Son, also He is the Son because he is like the Father…like begets like and He is the only one like the Father.
Mike,
you said:
Quote Yet I only know of ONE who is named “YHWH”. You often CLAIM there is another, but I have seen no proof of this claim to date. Allow me to enlighten you then…
Lu 2:11 For there is born to you this day a deliverer, who is the Lord Jehovah Messiah, in
the city of DavidJoh 8:11 And she said: No man, Lord Jehovah. And Jesus said: Neither do I condemn thee.
Go thou, and henceforth sin no more.Ac 2:36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know, assuredly, that God hath made that
Jesus whom ye crucified, to be Lord Jehovah and Messiah.Ac 2:38 Simon said to them: Repent, and be baptized every one of you, in the name of the
Lord Jehovah Jesus, for the remission of sins; so that ye may receive the gift of the
Holy Spirit.Ac 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the legates, and related to them how
the Lord Jehovah appeared to him in the way, and how he conversed with him; and
how, in Damascus, he had discoursed openly in the name of Jesus.Ac 10:36 For this is the word, which he sent to the sons of Israel, announcing to them peace
and rest by Jesus Messiah, He is Lord Jehovah of all;Ro 14:9 Moreover, for this cause Messiah died, and revived, and arose; that he might be
Lord Jehovah of the dead and of the living.Ro 14:14 I know indeed, and am persuaded by the Lord Jehovah Jesus, that there is
nothing which is unclean in itself; but to him who thinketh any thing to be unclean, to
him only it is defiled.1Co 8:6 yet to us, on our part, there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and
we in him; and one Lord Jehovah, Jesus the Messiah, by whom are all things, and
we also by him.1Co 11:27 He therefore, who eateth of the bread of the Lord Jehovah, and drinketh of his
cup, and is not worthy of it, is guilty of the blood of the Lord Jehovah, and of his
body.1Co 11:29 for, whoever eateth and drinketh of it, while he is unworthy, eateth and drinketh
condemnation on himself, by not discerning the body of the Lord Jehovah.1Co 12:3 I therefore inform you, that there is no man, that speaketh by the Spirit of God,
who saith that Jesus is accursed: neither can a man say that Jesus is the Lord
Jehovah, except by the Holy Spirit.1Co 15:47 The first man was of dust from the earth; the second man was the Lord Jehovah
from heaven.Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus the Messiah is the Lord Jehovah,
to the glory of God his Father.Col 3:24 and know ye, that from our Lord ye will receive a recompense as the inheritance;
for ye serve the Lord Jehovah the Messiah.1Pe 3:15 but sanctify the Lord Jehovah the Messiah, in your hearts. And be ye ready for a
vindication, before every one who demandeth of you an account of the hope of your
faith,Re 22:20 ¶ He who testifieth these things, saith: Yes, I come quickly. Amen. Come, Lord
Jehovah Jesus!An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest.
Mike,
you said:Quote Also Kathi, notice what else is said about those who are called by YHWH's name in the verse above. They are those that YHWH CREATED – those He FORMED and MADE. We know that one person didn't form them by Himself, i.e. “Let US make man in our image.”
John 1:1-3 1In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God. 2This One himself was at the origin with God. 3Everything was in his hand, and without him not even one thing existed of the things that existed.Mike,
you asked:Quote Now compare that to the ANGEL of God in Exodus:
Exodus 23:21
Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.WHOSE name is “in him”, Kathi? I don't read, “We have the SAME name” in this verse – do you?
Basically, that is the result. Jehovah and Jehovah our Righteousness.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2012,15:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 01 2012,01:35) Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2012,17:10) BD,
you said:Quote So during the time he hadn't been given “the name” yet, what was his name and what was the Name of the one who gave him the Name. You are saying that YHWH was a being who gave the name YHWH to another being whom we also call Jesus. Doesn't this mean that Jesus was not always named YHWH?
They are both always YHWH because they have always had that character of eternal existence. This name merely represents character.
Both always existed, so not just one original YHWH except in the unity sense.Quote Wouldn't thatalso mean their is ONLY ONE ORGINAL YHWH? It just means that one is the Father and the other is the Son. Their character of eternal existence, always existed.
But you admit that they both didn't have that name since it was GIVEN to Jesus. If Jesus always had this character then why would he have to be given a name which was already his character?Also ho would it be that Jesus turned out to be the son if one did not precede the other? You do realize that to be a father you would have to precede your offspring , correct?
BD,
You are belaboring a point that we aren't given specifics on in scripture. The name was always His to have, after being begotten, He received it…a theory.Quote Also ho would it be that Jesus turned out to be the son if one did not precede the other? You do realize that to be a father you would have to precede your offspring , correct? The Father did not precede the Son as far as existence. The difference comes in that the Son was within the Father and was the only son begotten from the Father. The Father wasn't begotten from anyone. That is what makes one the Father and one the Son, also He is the Son because he is like the Father…like begets like and He is the only one like the Father.
So let me get this straight you say that Jesus is a Begotten God, correct?But you say he was always begotten, yes or no?
You say that the Father was never begotten, correct?
So what does begotten mean if it has nothing to do with time?
If the Father did not precede the son what makes the Father greater as Jesus said?
What does begotten mean?
BD,
Your questions with my answers:So let me get this straight you say that Jesus is a Begotten God, correct?
Almost…I say that Jesus is THE ONLY Begotten God.But you say he was always begotten, yes or no?
No, not always begotten, but begotten before the agesYou say that the Father was never begotten, correct?
CorrectSo what does begotten mean if it has nothing to do with time?
To bring forth as an offspring/bornIf the Father did not precede the son what makes the Father greater as Jesus said?
He is the Father, the begetterWhat does begotten mean?
same as before,To bring forth as an offspring/bornQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,22:28) Mike, you said:
Quote Yet I only know of ONE who is named “YHWH”. You often CLAIM there is another, but I have seen no proof of this claim to date. Allow me to enlighten you then…
Lu 2:11 For there is born to you this day a deliverer, who is the Lord Jehovah Messiah, in
the city of DavidAn honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest.
I'm still waiting for your PROOF that the Aramaic word “marya” means “the Lord Jehovah”.I have shown YOU proof from two different sites so far that it means “lord”.
So, jammin Jr., before you continue posting these doctored translations, you ought to first show proof that they are legit, don't you think?
And Asana, just so you know what this “Aramaic NT” thing is all about, here is a quote Kathi posted from another thread:
Quote The question is, “do we have the goods?—does the Peshitta Aramaic NT clear up this matter about the divinity of Yeshua (Jesus)?” The answer is, Yes—as you shall see in the following.
Do you have any trouble discerning the reason behind this push to claim the Aramaic was the original NT?Her quote goes on to say:
Quote Mar—Aramaic meaning Master/Lord. Mari means 'my Lord'. Yah—short version of YHVH (Yahweh) used in “hallelu-Yah (praise Yah)” and in a number of verses like Exodus 15:2 (Yah is my strength and song)…………..
MarYah—contraction of Mar and Yah, meaning 'Master/Lord Yah'.
Seems simple enough, right? Problem is, no Aramaic dictionary backs up this statement. They all say “marya” is simply the emphatic way of saying “lord” – much like “adonay” is the Hebrew emphatic of “adon”. Both still mean “lord”, though, and neither have anything to do with the name YHWH.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,23:48) No, not always begotten, but begotten before the ages What does begotten mean?
same as before,To bring forth as an offspring/born
So Jesus is an offspring of God, but he has existed as long as the God who brought him forth?He was begotten before the ages, but has existed from eternity?
Hmmmm…………………
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
