- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Dear sweet Kathi:)
I have come to the conclusion that there is no way to out argue or convince you that you are wrong and the reason is simple you are arguing from inference and that is why there are so many Christian denominations that have such a wide range of beliefs. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Jesus had simply said “I am God, Worship me” Now God all through the Bible is crystal clear that He is God and God alone so there is never an argument there. But you take the position that when “God” shows up in the flesh he chooses not to clearly and openly declare “I am God, even the God of your Fathers” So you take a viewpoint that only has inferences
But let's see if we can shake the logic tree a little harder
You say Jesus is God
You say the Father is God
You say they are both Jehovah
so what is the Name of the Father?in other words:
Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?You see in all your premises you left out any room for “The Father” to have a name, can you tell me what it is?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2012,22:21) Mike,
Thank you for admitting:YES Kathi. The translations you posted describe people worshipping Jesus.
So, we don't have to read this from you again:
Quote No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped.
Wow. That's pretty sneaky, don't you think, Kathi?I seem to recall that along with my answer (which applied ONLY to the FLAWED translations you quoted), there were three bolded questions and one request for your thoughts about John 9:38.
Once you answer those questions (and that one request), we'll be able to determine whether or not I have every right to keep saying, “No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped.”
I'll be waiting.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:43) Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2012,22:21) Mike,
Thank you for admitting:YES Kathi. The translations you posted describe people worshipping Jesus.
So, we don't have to read this from you again:
Quote No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped.
Wow. That's pretty sneaky, don't you think, Kathi?I seem to recall that along with my answer (which applied ONLY to the FLAWED translations you quoted), there were three bolded questions and one request for your thoughts about John 9:38.
Once you answer those questions (and that one request), we'll be able to determine whether or not I have every right to keep saying, “No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped.”
I'll be waiting.
MikeIt's just another trap it doesn't matter how they worshipped Jesus it still wouln't make him God if so then Kathi is going to have to explain this:
Daniel 2:46
Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.So this is a case of literally worshipping daniel so I would have to ask Kathi as Daniel was a man of God and not some false god why does the Bible having a KING worship Daniel in your eyes this sort of worship should equal the worshipping of christ Jesus , right?
Asana,
It depends on what you consider “worship”. If bowing before someone is “worship” in your opinion, then MANY people were worshiped in the scriptures, and Jesus would just be one of the many.
BUT……………………………
If you are like me and consider bowing down before men as “doing obeisance”, (reserving “worship” ONLY for God Almighty), then those men in the scriptures, including Jesus, had obeisance done to them, but were NOT “worshiped”.
Whatever definition you want to use, Kathi must be able to show that Jesus was bowed down to in an act of God-worship in order to make her claim. Because bowing down to show reverence to another person was quite common in Biblical times. Unless she can show that the person bowing “knew” Jesus was God Almighty Himself, and that his act of bowing was unmistakably God-worship, then she has no more right to claim Jesus was worshiped as God than we do to claim King David and Daniel were worshiped as God.
And to answer your question, YES, the worship/obeisance done to Daniel, King David, and many others in scripture is equal to the worship/obeisance done to Jesus. And none of that worship/obeisance should be confused with the worship given to our God AS our God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,11:11) Asana, It depends on what you consider “worship”. If bowing before someone is “worship” in your opinion, then MANY people were worshiped in the scriptures, and Jesus would just be one of the many.
BUT……………………………
If you are like me and consider bowing down before men as “doing obeisance”, (reserving “worship” ONLY for God Almighty), then those men in the scriptures, including Jesus, had obeisance done to them, but were NOT “worshiped”.
Whatever definition you want to use, Kathi must be able to show that Jesus was bowed down to in an act of God-worship in order to make her claim. Because bowing down to show reverence to another person was quite common in Biblical times. Unless she can show that the person bowing “knew” Jesus was God Almighty Himself, and that his act of bowing was unmistakably God-worship, then she has no more right to claim Jesus was worshiped as God than we do to claim King David and Daniel were worshiped as God.
And to answer your question, YES, the worship/obeisance done to Daniel, King David, and many others in scripture is equal to the worship/obeisance done to Jesus. And none of that worship/obeisance should be confused with the worship given to our God AS our God.
Agreed! As Usual.Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2012,10:55) Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2012,16:57) BD,
You said:Quote I never s that Jesus wasn't worshipped by some nor do the scriptures say the disciples worshipped Jesus so where did you get that from? Jesus told his disciples who to Worship and it wasn't him he told to Worship. I'm not sure what the first part of your statement meant but look at the part that I bolded. Then read this:
Matt 28:16But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
So, I ask you again, BD…why did the disciples worship Jesus and Jesus allow it if it broke the first commandment?
Once again this is not about if people worshipped Jesus at time this is about did he command them to Worship him? In Matthew 28 it says some worshipped him and others were doubtful right?Solomon, David and all the kings received worship and it wasn't thought to break the first commandment unless theywere claiming to be God which Jesus did not do. You still don't understand that you cannot have One God with 2 wills, you cannot have a God where one “part” never died which proves He is everlasting and eternal and one who died which violates eternity. So is God eternal or has God been subject to death from the beginning. If you believe that a “God” died can or will the Father ever die? If not why not? Because you said they had the SAME nature.
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you;
Can you show where Jesus taught or commanded them to worship him or treat him as a god? Even if Jesus was a god why would God Almighty whom you call the Father say
Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.Exodus 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.By the way kathi since you keep saying “God” is a group word or Family title what about these other gods are they also families of unities and why is God separating Himself from all else and being very clear about it.
BD,
Read:John 8:53“Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
Jesus would never demand worship. It is the Father that glorifies Him. Worship given to Jesus is done to the glory of God the Father.
Phillipians 2:9Because of this, God has also greatly exalted him and he has given him The Name which is greater than all names, 10That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth, 11And every tongue shall confess that Yeshua The Messiah is THE LORD JEHOVAH to the glory of God his Father.
Is 45:23
“I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.Even your knee will bow BD and even your tongue will confess one day that Jesus Christ is THE LORD JEHOVAH.
Mike
you said:Quote And to answer your question, YES, the worship/obeisance done to Daniel, King David, and many others in scripture is equal to the worship/obeisance done to Jesus. And none of that worship/obeisance should be confused with the worship given to our God AS our God. EVERY knee bows to Jesus IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH AND UNDER THE EARTH.
And you compare the bowing to Jesus as what is done to men? Did those men have EVERY KNEE bowing to them from those IN HEAVEN, ON EARTH, and UNDER THE EARTH. That type of worship is much more than for someone like King David, Mike. That type of worship is for the Lord in heaven, the Lord of lords, the Begotten God. Even you will confess with everyone in heaven, on earth and under the earth that Jesus Christ is the Lord Jehovah. And you will bow your knee in an act of worship towards the Lord who is over those in heaven, on earth and under the earth.
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2012,21:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:43) Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2012,22:21) Mike,
Thank you for admitting:YES Kathi. The translations you posted describe people worshipping Jesus.
So, we don't have to read this from you again:
Quote No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped.
Wow. That's pretty sneaky, don't you think, Kathi?I seem to recall that along with my answer (which applied ONLY to the FLAWED translations you quoted), there were three bolded questions and one request for your thoughts about John 9:38.
Once you answer those questions (and that one request), we'll be able to determine whether or not I have every right to keep saying, “No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped.”
I'll be waiting.
MikeIt's just another trap it doesn't matter how they worshipped Jesus it still wouln't make him God if so then Kathi is going to have to explain this:
Daniel 2:46
Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.So this is a case of literally worshipping daniel so I would have to ask Kathi as Daniel was a man of God and not some false god why does the Bible having a KING worship Daniel in your eyes this sort of worship should equal the worshipping of christ Jesus , right?
BD,
Perhaps you should spend some time in the book of Daniel and see that what King Nebuchadnezzar does, was not done by a Godly person. Just verses later after declaring Daniel's God as a God of gods and a Lord of kings, he has a golden statue made and commands all people to bow down and worship it.So, I wouldn't use Neb's example as one that was an accurate expression of worship. I'm sure that Daniel was not approving of that. Or do you doubt that? Read the book…Neb was full of himself and becomes like an animal, eating grass because of it. Daniel was a man of God and gave Jehovah worship only. He is sent to the lions den because of it.
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 17 2012,11:13) Dear sweet Kathi:) I have come to the conclusion that there is no way to out argue or convince you that you are wrong and the reason is simple you are arguing from inference and that is why there are so many Christian denominations that have such a wide range of beliefs. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Jesus had simply said “I am God, Worship me” Now God all through the Bible is crystal clear that He is God and God alone so there is never an argument there. But you take the position that when “God” shows up in the flesh he chooses not to clearly and openly declare “I am God, even the God of your Fathers” So you take a viewpoint that only has inferences
But let's see if we can shake the logic tree a little harder
You say Jesus is God
You say the Father is God
You say they are both Jehovah
so what is the Name of the Father?in other words:
Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?You see in all your premises you left out any room for “The Father” to have a name, can you tell me what it is?
BD,
you said:Quote We wouldn't be having this conversation if Jesus had simply said “I am God, Worship me” Now God all through the Bible is crystal clear that He is God and God alone so there is never an argument there. But you take the position that when “God” shows up in the flesh he chooses not to clearly and openly declare “I am God, even the God of your Fathers” So you take a viewpoint that only has inferences As I showed you in a previous post, Jesus won't exalt Himself, the Father does. Read your Bible.
If He exalted Himself, then you would be telling me that He is the 'son of perdition':
3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Quote You say Jesus is God
You say the Father is God
You say they are both Jehovah
so what is the Name of the Father?They both have the name “Jehovah.” There is Jehovah the Father and Jehovah the Son and together, Jehovah the unity of both.
The Father gave His name to His Son. If the YHVH was left in the writings of the NT where it should be instead of 'LORD' you would see this better.
11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2012,16:43) Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2012,22:21) Mike,
Thank you for admitting:YES Kathi. The translations you posted describe people worshipping Jesus.
So, we don't have to read this from you again:
Quote No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped.
Wow. That's pretty sneaky, don't you think, Kathi?I seem to recall that along with my answer (which applied ONLY to the FLAWED translations you quoted), there were three bolded questions and one request for your thoughts about John 9:38.
Once you answer those questions (and that one request), we'll be able to determine whether or not I have every right to keep saying, “No where in scripture is Jesus ever worshiped.”
I'll be waiting.
Mike,
Those 'flawed' translations include your favorite…the NIV. In one thread you claim it is flawed, in another thread it is your favorite translation. Really, Mike?? Please note that the Bible translations that you quote from, all but the NWT has the 'G' capitalized when speaking of the Son and calling Him God.The NIV John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The NIV also tells us that Jesus is worshiped and not done obeisance to.
Here, the NIV has that they worshiped Jesus, twice in this passage…this is your favorite translation, Mike.
8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”
The Guards’ Report
11While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.
The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Here is Mike's quote telling us which translation is his favorite:
Quote I have personally read the NWT, the NIV, the CEV, and the NASB cover to cover. So far the NIV is my favorite.
from here: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=4358
Third post down.John 1:18 NIV
18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.That scripture is also from the NIV, Kathi, and it is probably the most nonsensical translation anyone could come up with for John 1:18. Really? No one has ever seen God, but thousands have seen “God the One and Only”?
And “God the ONE and ONLY” is at the side of God? But I thought you said he was “God the ONE and ONLY”. Hmmmm………………………In that post to Jeremy, I also turned him on to NETBible and NETNotes, right? I absolutely LOVE that site (which, btw, YOU turned me on to
) even though it was produced by 25 TRINITARIAN scholars. They say things like: pneuma = the third person in the Godhead Yet I still learn LOTS from these guys, and have learned to just overlook the nonsensical claims like the one above.
Similarly, I find the NIV to be written in easy to understand English – without them “babying us”, like the CEV does many times. (In all fairness, the CEV was intented to be read by 12 year olds and up.) But just because I enjoy the style of English in the NIV doesn't mean I buy into every Trinitarian slanted thing they say.
Now, would you please DIRECTLY address my three bolded questions from before, and the request for your opinion about John 9:38?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 19 2012,23:37) And you compare the bowing to Jesus as what is done to men?
Jesus was still a man when the disciples supposedly “worshipped” him, Kathi. All knees in heaven and earth were not yet bowing to him because his God and our God hadn't yet exalted him and GIVEN him the name above all others. So yes, during his time on earth, the bowing to show reverence to the man Jesus was the same as the bowing to show reverence to Daniel or King David.Now, by the time all knees in heaven and earth will bow to him, it will be much more significant than one man bowing before another man. At that time, we will be bowing to the King and Lord of heaven and earth, second only to his and our God.
But to whose glory is the bowing, Kathi? Is it not to the glory of “GOD, his Father”? We will be doing a service to our God and Creator by bowing before and serving the one HE appointed as our Lord and King. Just like the Hebrews did a service to God, by proxy, when they bowed to the King of Israel that He appointed over them.
Kathi, why is it that you can easily see the difference between Jesus and his servants, but not between God and His servant Jesus?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 19 2012,23:29) “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me………………..” Jesus would never demand worship. It is the Father that glorifies Him.
John 12:28
Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.”Seems to be a difference between a SERVANT of God glorifying himself, and God Almighty glorifying Himself, huh?
Mike,
you asked:Quote 1. How about those same verses in the translation I quoted? Do any of them describe people worshipping Jesus? YES or NO? Yes!
Quote 2. Does the word “proskuneo” HAVE TO BE translated as “worship”? Or is it up the the translator? Whether it is translated as obeisance or worship, it is still given in a religious sense as one would give homage to a God or idol. It doesn't matter which word is used.
Quote 3. Does the fact that Trinitarian translators generally render “proskuneo” as “worship” in the case of Jesus really PROVE that Jesus was worshipped by anyone? YES or NO? Yes!
And then this: John 9:38
The healed blind man is worshiping Jesus, in a religious way, because he believes that Jesus is the Son of Man. Jesus does not refuse this worship. 30+ verses later the Pharisees are attempting to stone Him; and then some time later, the Pharisees do crucify Him who this healed blind man worshiped as the Son of Man.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2012,21:07) Quote (Lightenup @ July 19 2012,23:29) “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me………………..” Jesus would never demand worship. It is the Father that glorifies Him.
John 12:28
Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.”Seems to be a difference between a SERVANT of God glorifying himself, and God Almighty glorifying Himself, huh?
Mike,
Remember that it was not Jesus' purpose to glorify Himself. Not because He didn't deserve it.The Son naturally serves His Father. That does not mean that they are not a unity as Jehovah.
Mike,
you asked:Quote Kathi, why is it that you can easily see the difference between Jesus and his servants, but not between God and His servant Jesus? Because Jesus' servants didn't get credit for creation (but Jesus and God do), salvation of all mankind (but Jesus and God do), aren't called the 'First and the Last,' (but Jesus and God are) raise from the dead…their body decayed (but Jesus did raise from the dead), they didn't know all things (but Jesus and God do), they sinned (but Jesus and God don't), they didn't forgive sins done to God (but Jesus and God do), and on and on, oh yes, they weren't qualified to remove the seals from the scroll (but Jesus was) .
Why can't you see that there is one called the Lord of lords that is worshiped with God. Jehovah is both God and Lord.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:28) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) How about those same verses in the translation I quoted? Do any of them describe people worshipping Jesus? YES or NO? Yes!
Wrong answer. The translations I showed depict men doing obeisance to Jesus, not worshiping him.Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:28) Whether it is translated as obeisance or worship, it is still given in a religious sense as one would give homage to a God or idol. It doesn't matter which word is used.
So then any time in scripture where a man bowed to anyone, that man was WORSHIPPING the other man as if he was God? Try again.Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:28) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Does the fact that Trinitarian translators generally render “proskuneo” as “worship” in the case of Jesus really PROVE that Jesus was worshipped by anyone? YES or NO? Yes!
Again, wrong answer.Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:28) And then this: John 9:38
The healed blind man is worshiping Jesus, in a religious way, because he believes that Jesus is the Son of Man.
So it makes complete sense to you that a man worshiped Jesus as if he was God Almighty right in front of the Pharisees who had been looking for a reason to have Jesus put to death, and they did nothing to that man or to Jesus?Kathi, your posts show very clearly how what you WANT to be the truth will continue to override what the scriptures actually teach – many times with laughably illogical results.
The FACT of the matter is that the word “proskuneo” is used for either the worship of someone or something as your God…………. OR…………….. the simple act of bowing before another to show them respect or reverence. According to you, the simple Japanese act of greeting another is God-worship of that other.
You can PRETEND that “proskuneo” means worship when used of Jesus if you want to, but your PRETENSE won't make it so. Jesus himself told us who we are to worship and serve as our God. It was not him. I will do what my Lord says – you are free to do the opposite of what he says if you want to. I can't stop you.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:32) The Son naturally serves His Father. That does not mean that they are not a unity as Jehovah
Uh…….. DUH! A servant OF God is not God, Kathi. This should be common sense to anyone 3 years old and up.Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:44) Because Jesus' servants didn't get credit for creation (but Jesus and God do),
Wrong. He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. I've showed you MANY scriptures where Jesus is listed as someone OTHER THAN the ONE who created all things. If Jesus is not that ONE, then he has no choice but to BE one of the things created BY that ONE.Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:44) salvation of all mankind (but Jesus and God do)
Many others are involved with the salvation of mankind (John 21:15-17)…………….. does that make them God too?Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:44) aren't called the 'First and the Last,' (but Jesus and God are) raise from the dead…
Good point. Death at one time had mastery over Jesus. When did death ever have mastery over God?Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:44) they didn't know all things (but Jesus and God do), they sinned (but Jesus and God don't), they didn't forgive
Jesus doesn't know the day and hour………… God does.Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:44) they sinned (but Jesus and God don't),
God can't even be tempted to sin…………. Jesus was.Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:44) they didn't forgive sins done to God (but Jesus and God do),
Yes, Jesus was GIVEN authority FROM HIS GOD to forgive sins on earth. Jesus later granted this authority to his disciples.Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:44) they weren't qualified to remove the seals from the scroll (but Jesus was)
God is the One who holds the scroll in His hand, Kathi. Jesus is the one who was deemed worthy BY GOD to take the scroll from His hand.Can you truly not see all these differences?
You have been blinded by your own emotions, wishes, and most likely by the god of this world.Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2012,22:44) Why can't you see that there is one called the Lord of lords that is worshiped with God. Jehovah is both God and Lord.
Scripture teaches of no such thing as Jesus being worshiped by anyone. But I agree that Jehovah is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords. Jesus has been appointed as a Lord over other lords, but he is never called “the God of gods”, is he?So while Jehovah remains both the God of gods AND the Lord of lords, Jesus is only a Lord of lords like King David was.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
