Biblical discussion &#8211; BD, LU, Mikeboll, ST

Participant

Dear BD,
you said:

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Psalms 45 was written hundreds of years before Christ was sent to us, so who do you think the writer was referring to at thetime it was written? It was the King which most likely was David.

Really?? Have you not ever heard of a Messianic prophecy before? Of course they were written way before Jesus was born in the flesh, no surprise there, and they were about Him like Psalm 45 is. Did you not even go to the link I provided about this?

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Tell me you believe literally that Jesus is the Only Begotten son of God, right?

Yes, that is right!

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Jeremiah 31:9
They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

If Ephraim is the Fathers Firstborn how could Jesus be the Only Begotten?

Jesus was the only one literally begotten as an offspring, an only literally begotten offspring. As regarding Israel, we know who his earthly father was because that is clear…Isaac. We merely have to read the Bible to see whether or not God is speaking of an only literally begotten offspring of His or one by designation. God, the Father's literal only begotten offspring would have His nature and be the only begotten God.

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God has sons by the tons but you pick out your favorite and declare all others just figures of speech.

Well, you don't know me very well to think that I would just pick out my favorite and declare all others just figures of speech. I take my faith extremely seriously BD, that is not how we are to come to our beliefs. If the Holy Spirit doesn't lead you and the scriptures don't bear witness to our beliefs, then we certainly ought not to be making any declarations. My understanding of Jesus being the only begotten literal Son began on Dec. 12th, 1992 when I asked God to show me what 'firstborn over all creation' meant. That was over 19 years ago and I have tested every thought that came to my mind in that regard. I will never forget that time in my life when it felt like scales fell from my eyes and I began to see the literal Son of God.

The Father has told us through the scriptures that Jesus is His only begotten Son, clearly, and that He sent His only begotten Son into the world so that those of us who would believe in Him would not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Can you show me anyone that is called God's ONLY begotten son? Jesus is not called His 'first' begotten son but His ONLY begotten Son. That should be enough for you to seriously question this idea of God not having any literal sons; that he doesn't beget. You seriously have a problem with John 3:16, not with me. Satan would love that truth to be disregarded. Think about it, if indeed God did beget a literal and only offspring (and I say 'if' for you, not for me) and satan wanted to cover that up, he did a pretty good job making a religion that took the lie of God not being able to beget-hook, line, and sinker, didn't he? The muslims have fallen hard after that one. Also, the lie about Jesus not really dying and shedding His blood for the redemption of sins. That was the very act that took away the power of death that satan brought on mankind through his wicked deception. He would want those two things covered up.

You say that many are called gods, listen BD, only one is the 'only begotten God,' or can you show me others? A true God is one by nature…original nature, no other way. Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of God and who existed in the form of God in the beginning with the Father. All others that may be referred to as gods are not gods by nature and are powerless over the Father and the Son.

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First you insist that Jesus is a god and then you say you believe god can be killed which would mean he is not eternal.

Have you forgotten that Jesus came in the flesh…flesh can die. If He didn't come in the flesh, He couldn't have shed blood and died. His divinity was always eternal, His flesh died and was resurrected to eternal life. His divinity did not die. That is a major reason WHY He had to come in the flesh.

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You also believe that Jesus knew from the foundation of the world that he would be killed but somehow this god got nervous and confused after all the planning and knowing he would only be dead for a short while actually felt forsaken when as he would know he couldn't forsake himself.

His death He did not fear…it was the torture to His body which showed His true humanity, that He felt physical and emotional pain. Also, He didn't forsake Himself, the Father forsook Him. You really don't understand that I'm talking about more than on person it seems.

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A man behaves this way trying hard to overcome temptation, feeling the walls closing in on him, fearing for his life and almost giving up hope these are the feelings of a MAN andI am not ashamed of Jesus Christ a MAN approved by GOD ALMIGHTY.

I'm not denying that He became a man, yet He was not always a man, He was the Lord of lords that became flesh…emptying Himself to become a bond servant for the sake of all mankind.

Jesus certainly was a man approved by God, though not always a man but the only begotten God, the Lord of lords…begotten before the ages, existent eternally.

July 10, 2012 at 11:01 pm#305543

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2012,17:15)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 09 2012,21:59)

Mike,
you asked:

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I'm asking if Jesus and Nebuchadnezzar can both be Kings of kings without being the same being.

And if your answer is “YES”, then why can't Jehovah and Jesus both be Lords of lords without being the same being?

Yes, they can both be King of kings without being the same being. I don't think that anyone would understand them as the same being given what is said about them in the Bible. However, Jesus and YHVH as Lord of lords can be understood as the same being because of the same very unique things that are said about them. Also, the NT verses about Jesus quote the OT verses about YHVH as applied to Jesus in the NT.

Since your answer to the first question was indeed “YES”, please answer the follow up question DIRECTLY. (I've bolded it for easy reference.)

Because the Bible tells us there is one Lord and that is not the Father but it is Jesus. If the Father was Lord of lords, Jesus could not also be because the Father is greater in authority than the Son. That is why the Father is the God of gods and the Son is the Lord of lords.

July 10, 2012 at 11:28 pm#305547

Blocked

Kathi,

You've got to be kidding me, right? Is the Father the Lord of heaven and earth? Are there other lords in heaven and on earth? Ergo, the Father is also a Lord of other lords, just like King David, Jesus, and many others who have lived.

Shall we apply your literal interpretation of “one Lord” to the first part of 1 Cor 8:6, where we are told of ONE God, THE FATHER? Wouldn't that mean that Jesus can't be a god at all?

July 11, 2012 at 5:35 am#305581

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2012,10:28)

Kathi,

Shall we apply your literal interpretation of “one Lord” to the first part of 1 Cor 8:6, where we are told of ONE God, THE FATHER? Wouldn't that mean that Jesus can't be a god at all?

Absolutely stunning and correct Mike, this is what is meant by let us reason together, if someone was being reasonable they would read what you just wrote and say “I understand what you mean by that”

I really want Kathi to respond to this honestly because if we say okay you are correct Kathi for us there is one lord and we accept that it is only Jesus Christ then Kathi we also accept there is only one God and who is that Kathi? Pick one.

July 11, 2012 at 9:49 pm#305607

Participant

It is like I never said 'context is king.' Do you guys not understand this expression? What do you think that means?? You both need to review the thread. We have discussed this.

Here is a question for you guys:

Does 1 Cor 8:6 tell us that our one Lord is Jesus Christ or the Father?

July 11, 2012 at 9:54 pm#305608

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,08:49)

It is like I never said 'context is king.' Do you guys not understand this expression? What do you think that means?? You both need to review the thread. We have discussed this.

Here is a question for you guys:

Does 1 Cor 8:6 tell us that our one Lord is Jesus Christ or the Father?

It says Jesus Christ is “our one lord” so what does it say about The Father?

What is He?

July 11, 2012 at 9:58 pm#305609

Participant

BD,
1 Cor 8:6 says the Father is our one God and not our one Lord.

It just so happens that Jehovah is both our God of gods and Lord of lords…not JUST God of gods.

July 11, 2012 at 10:02 pm#305612

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 09 2012,22:08)

So when you talk about God to kathi she has to think to herself “Which God are they talking about?”

So what, BD? When we talk to you about the Lord, you have to ask yourself “Which Lord are they talking about?”

Is that not true?

July 11, 2012 at 10:21 pm#305619

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ July 11 2012,15:58)

BD,
1 Cor 8:6 says the Father is our one God and not our one Lord.

It just so happens that Jehovah is both our God of gods and Lord of lords…not JUST God of gods.

But Kathi,

If you take the “one God, the Father” part as literally as you want to take “one Lord, Jesus Christ” part, then our one God is the Father, PERIOD.

If you take it literally, then Jesus is the ONLY Lord we have, and the Father is the ONLY God we have. And that shoots down any chances of Jesus being our God, doesn't it?

July 11, 2012 at 10:24 pm#305621

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 10 2012,23:35)

……….this is what is meant by let us reason together, if someone was being reasonable they would read what you just wrote and say “I understand what you mean by that”

Thanks Asana,

I always keep that hope in my heart – that my words are not wasted. I keep hope that eventually, someone WILL say, “I understand what you mean by that”.

July 11, 2012 at 10:32 pm#305624

Participant

But Mike,
You are the one that has been taking it literally and saying that we only have one God and it is not Jesus.

What I'm saying is that there is a scriptural context where we have one Lord and He is not the Father. I believe that particular scripture clarifies Deut 10:17 where we are told that Jehovah is the God of gods and the Lord of lords. The Father is the God of gods and Jesus is the Lord of lords. Together they are both the God of gods and the Lord of lords.

July 12, 2012 at 12:10 am#305661

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ July 11 2012,16:32)

I believe that particular scripture clarifies Deut 10:17 where we are told that Jehovah is the God of gods and the Lord of lords.

But you are overlooking the vast possibilty that Moses was saying that Jehovah (the Father) is both a God of other gods, AND a Lord of other lords. He is both of those things, right?

So how can you use a scripture with such an obvious simple meaning and try to FORCE it to be teaching of two Gods?

July 12, 2012 at 2:18 am#305676

Participant

Mike,
I did, in the past, assume Moses was saying about the triune God, that He was one being, yet three persons, and as one being, He was both the God of gods and the Lord of lords. I never really considered anything other than the triune God at that time, nor did I dig into the scriptures and do an in-depth study on my own.

Now, I look at scripture more openly, testing what I feel like the Holy Spirit is showing me according to scriptures. I still believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit but I just see two persons and their Spirit which still makes three manifestations. I may be wrong and the Spirit is actually a separate person, but that is not what I understand scripture to be saying.

All that, to say that I have considered the possibility that one being is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords…a triune being.

Now, think, no where in scripture does it clearly say that the Father's name is Lord of lords. It says that about Yahweh which you just assume is always the Father and only the Father or the 'vice regent' of the Father. However, scripture directly says that Jesus is the Lord of lords in a couple of places and in another place tells us that Jesus is our one Lord. In SEVERAL places the two are mentioned together as God the Father and the Lord, Jesus Christ. In SEVERAL places, the NT ties OT scripture about Jehovah to Jesus, and in the OT there is one Jehovah sending brimstone down from another Jehovah in heaven. Then, if ALL that doesn't make you wonder about your 'Father only is Jehovah doctrine', consider that no man has seen or heard the Father even though men have seen and heard Jehovah. Jesus is not called the Word of God and the Image of God for no apparent reason.

Furthermore, Jehovah (the Son) is also both a God of other gods AND a Lord of other lords. He is also both of those things. In fact, it can be said that satan is a god of other gods and a lord of other lords.

However, Jehovah is not just a god of gods or a lord of lords…Jehovah is THE God of gods and THE Lord of lords. I am not forcing the fact that the Bible teaches that we have two that together are our God and Lord…we have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. That makes two that together are our God and Lord.

How is it you say I am forcing anything. Jehovah being the Father and the Son has undeniable support throughout scripture. Both are worshiped in the scriptures and both are worshiped in the early church. You also agree that they are both a theos…two theos.

July 12, 2012 at 8:17 pm#305716

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,13:18)

All that, to say that I have considered the possibility that one being is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords…a triune being.

I'm actually amazed that you don't understand because I know you are being totally sincere but here goes again.

If Jesus is God then why would Jesus Christ himself say that the Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD which would exclude himself being a true God, correct?

July 12, 2012 at 9:10 pm#305717

Participant

BD,
Look at the verse:
John 17:1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Now, to help you see, exchange the only true “God” with “God of gods” and exchange “Jesus Christ” with “Jesus Christ the Lord of lords.”

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God of gods, and Jesus Christ the one Lord, the Lord of lords of lords whom You have sent.

Now read that with the understanding that Jehovah is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords as we see in Deut 10:17. I am not changing the persons in the verse, just adding their titles that we find in scripture.

When we know Jehovah as both the God of gods AND the Lord of lords…that is eternal life. We need to know Father AND Son, not just the God of gods but also the Lord of lords. Jehovah is not just the Father. Jehovah (the unity) is two persons of the same kind(god nature) but different positions of authority (Father/Son) who are together one supreme authority.

It is like this, there is one Begetter God and one Begotten God. The Begetter God is the one true God in this context and the Begotten God is the one true Lord in this context, both which are in unity as Jehovah.

July 12, 2012 at 9:43 pm#305719

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 13 2012,08:10)

Now, to help you see, exchange the only true “God” with “God of gods” and exchange “Jesus Christ” with “Jesus Christ the Lord of lords.”

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God of gods, and Jesus Christ the one Lord, the Lord of lords of lords whom You have sent.

The problem Kathi is that the word lord has nothing to do with being “God” a lord means someone who is n charge or an owner such as a Land lord, your problem is thinking lord has a super natural meaning and it doesn't so Jesus could be lord without being God in any sense. But God is the Lord God Meaning that The Only True God istruly the Owner of Everything and he GAVE authority over all flesh to Christ, which means he did not have it it was given to him BY GOD Jesus Christ says the one that sent him is THE ONLY TRUE GOD so I ask you is JESUS CHRIST correct?

July 12, 2012 at 10:53 pm#305721

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ July 11 2012,20:18)

All that, to say that I have considered the possibility that one being is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords…a triune being.

We'll have to start calling you “Keith Jr.” But it's good to know the whole background. I agree with Asana that your entire post is sincere.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 11 2012,20:18)

Now, think, no where in scripture does it clearly say that the Father's name is Lord of lords.

Psalm 136
1 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good.
His love endures forever.
2 Give thanks to the God of gods.
His love endures forever.
3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords:
His love endures forever.
4 to him who alone does great wonders,
His love endures forever.

26 Give thanks to the God of heaven.
His love endures forever.

That is a whole lot of “he” and “his” and “him” to be talking about TWO people, Kathi. I know you'll say the psalmist is giving thanks to BOTH “the God of gods” AND “the Lord of lords”, but look at the ending. Is Jesus called “the God of heaven” anywhere in scripture? No. Instead it is made clear throughout scripture that Jesus is the Son of the living God in heaven.

1 Timothy 6
13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.

Let's do an evaluation of this passage, Kathi. I point to Paul mentioning Jesus as someone OTHER THAN God at least twice in this passage. I point to God being the only one to be truly immortal, having no beginning, and having never died. (Jesus is immortal NOW, but he has already died once. Not to mention the many scriptures that speak about his origins – scriptures you like to re-write all the time.) I point to the MANY times in the letters of Paul where he distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN “God”. And I point to the fact that no man has ever seen the face of God, yet thousands of people have seen Jesus.

Tell me what part of this passage causes you to believe the “God” who is called the Lord of lords is Jesus. Remember that the suggestion must be in THIS PASSAGE, and not just an opinion you have carried over from personal beliefs. Tell me how Paul starts off talking about ONE who is “God”, and a DIFFERENT ONE who is “Jesus Christ”, yet for some reason ends up calling Jesus “God” by the end.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 11 2012,20:18)

………consider that no man has seen or heard the Father even though men have seen and heard Jehovah.

Where does scripture say no man has ever HEARD Jehovah? And where does scripture say any man has SEEN Him?

Quote (Lightenup @ July 11 2012,20:18)

With this, I agree. Jesus is a god who is over other gods, and the Father is a Lord who is over other lords. I agree that Satan is also both of those things.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 11 2012,20:18)

How is it you say I am forcing anything. Jehovah being the Father and the Son has undeniable support throughout scripture.

It has only IMAGINED support from people who think it's normal to call our ONE God a He, even though THEY are TWO or more Gods.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 11 2012,20:18)

Both are worshiped in the scriptures and both are worshiped in the early church.

Nowhere in scripture is Jesus ever worshipped.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 11 2012,20:18)

You also agree that they are both a theos…two theos.

Yes, I agree they are both gods. But only one of them is the Most High God.

Kathi, you posted quite a bit of stuff. I wanted to touch on most of it briefly, but deal in depth with the discussion about whether or not the Father is called Lord of lords. I'll await your response to the Psalm and, more importantly, to the 1 Timothy passage.

July 13, 2012 at 1:04 am#305747

Participant

Of course I disagree there are no “gods” There is ONLY ONE ACTUAL GOD. All else is just poetry and metaphor. God is THE SUPREME BEING not “a” supreme being.

Say: “O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than Allah.” If then they turn back, say ye: “Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #64)

Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To Allah in Islam)?
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #80)

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #31)

John 15:15
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

John 15:14
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

July 13, 2012 at 1:31 am#305750

Blocked

Asana,

Of course there are MANY other gods and lords mentioned in scripture. How can Jesus be the Lord God appointed over you if you can't even recognize him as your lord?

To many of those who DO recognize him as Lord, he will say, “Away from me evil doers!” What do you suppose he will say to those who don't even acknowledge his Lordship?

Asana, there is LITERALLY but ONE Omniscient Creator of all things, but there are many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth.

Jehovah couldn't even be “the God OF gods” if there were no other gods. Nor could He be “the Most High God” if there were no “lower” gods.

July 13, 2012 at 2:45 am#305756