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Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2012,12:12) Oh, Mike, you know we have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ and the Father are both theos. So, let me ask you again, how many theos are for us? 1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Mike,
You can't seem to answer this question. Do you realize that you have put people in the hot seat when they avoid answering a direct question?I ask you again, please answer the question in the quote box. Thanks!
BD,
There is a reason why John 1:18 translates as 'the only begotten God.' It is because it was written as monogenes theos in the earliest Greek manuscripts. Think about it, BD, which manuscript would be the most reliable, the one closer to the time of Christ or the one further from the time of Christ. Is that a question you are going to avoid also?Also, Jesus was making Himself out to be the begotten God. The Pharisees were going to stone Him for that.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2012,15:05) Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2012,12:12) Oh, Mike, you know we have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ and the Father are both theos. So, let me ask you again, how many theos are for us? 1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Mike,
You can't seem to answer this question. Do you realize that you have put people in the hot seat when they avoid answering a direct question?I ask you again, please answer the question in the quote box. Thanks!
The answer is the same answer I've been quoting right out of scripture, Kathi…………….ONE! For us there is but ONE God, the Father.Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2012,11:48) Quote (Lightenup @ June 30 2012,23:31) BD, Can you say these words and mean them?
“My God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”?”
BD,
Can you?
BD,
Since you seem to not be able to say these words and mean it:“My God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”
I am not surprised that you are so baffled about what I am trying to help you understand.
May the covenant God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob bless you with an increase in knowledge and peace of Jesus.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2012,15:32) Mike,
Is Jesus the only begotten theos?
Is Jesus for us as our one Lord according to 1 Cor 8:6?
Yes Kathi,For us there is one God, the Father, and one Lord whom that one God appointed, Jesus Christ.
It is a hierarchy that Paul is speaking about in 1 Cor 8:6, with God being the head of Christ, and Christ being the head of us. I will honor Jesus as my Lord, and worship his Father as my only God.
Mike,
So that “Yes Kathi,” is an answer to “Is Jesus the only begotten theos”?Are you honoring the only begotten theos as your one Lord?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2012,13:57) So I did understand you correctly. You think that Jesus reigns as God and as the servant of God simultaneously. No further questions, ma'am.
Jesus reigns with the Father together as the supreme authority forever. He also reigns as the Son of David forever on David's throne.“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority… If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.” Colossians 2:9-10, 3:1
“and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all.” Ephesians 1:19-23
“The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.’” Revelation 11:15
Those verses speak of a kingdom in heaven where Jesus is now the head over every power and authority at the right hand of God…and a kingdom of the world which is yet to become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ where all opposing power and authority is cast down and destroyed. Jesus reigns forever and ever in both kingdoms with His Father.
Another point, you know that man will sit with Jesus on ONE throne but you have trouble with the Father and the Son sitting together on ONE throne. Why is that?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 05 2012,15:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2012,13:57) So I did understand you correctly. You think that Jesus reigns as God and as the servant of God simultaneously. No further questions, ma'am.
Jesus reigns with the Father together as the supreme authority forever. He also reigns as the Son of David forever on David's throne.“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority… If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.” Colossians 2:9-10, 3:1
“and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all.” Ephesians 1:19-23
“The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.’” Revelation 11:15
Those verses speak of a kingdom in heaven where Jesus is now the head over every power and authority at the right hand of God…and a kingdom of the world which is yet to become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ where all opposing power and authority is cast down and destroyed. Jesus reigns forever and ever in both kingdoms with His Father.
Another point, you know that man will sit with Jesus on ONE throne but you have trouble with the Father and the Son sitting together on ONE throne. Why is that?
So you do agree that The Father is the Ultimate and Highest Authority that much you have already said. So all semantics aside what you call the one having the Highest Authority is what we call GOD ALMIGHTY.You can call as many people as you like “God” but you have agreed that “The Father” is the Supreme Authority and that is the main point we are trying to share with you now if you reject what I am saying here I already have the post where you agreed on this.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 01 2012,02:09) Mike,
I maybe wrong but I think your disagreement with Asana is far greater as to who Jesus is than what you portray as you two seem to be each others cohort in this thread.For instance:
You believe that Jesus died. Asana does not.
You believe that Jesus is a literal begotten Son. Asana does not.
You believe that the Abrahamic covenant came through Isaac. Asana does not.These are just some of the major differences yet you two act like you agree as to who Jesus is. Why is that?
I aid nothing about the Abrahamic covenant not coming through Isaac of course it does but God made more than one covenant with Abraham so please quote me correctly.As Far as Jesus being the literal son of God you misunderstand again I said God does not procreate HE did not put sperm in Mary. He created Christ with HIS WORD and HIS WORD became flesh. You don't even believe that Christ was created or begotten because you claim he has always been and if you do not believe that then tell me WHEN was CHRIST Begat?
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 05 2012,14:38) So you do agree that The Father is the Ultimate and Highest Authority that much you have already said. So all semantics aside what you call the one having the Highest Authority is what we call GOD ALMIGHTY. You can call as many people as you like “God” but you have agreed that “The Father” is the Supreme Authority and that is the main point we are trying to share with you now if you reject what I am saying here I already have the post where you agreed on this.
I couldn't have said it better, Asana.Kathi, we recognize that Jesus is also called a theos, as are many others in scripture. We recognize that there are many gods, both in heaven and on earth………..yet for us, there is but ONE God, and that ONE God is the Father.
We recognize and honor the Son of the Most High God as our Lord who was appointed by our God and his God. We just will not ever recognize God's Son and servant as the Most High God who brought him into existence.
We will follow the command of our Lord Jesus, who told us to worship and serve as God ONLY the Father – the same one he worships and serves.
BD,
Did you exist before you were born/begotten? I'd say you did, probably for about 9 months. The term 'begotten' does not necessarily equal the very start of existence. I believe that the Son was begotten, i.e. brought forth from within the Father as an offspring that was always within the Father. There is no mention of the Father 'conceiving' the Son before the ages but He was begotten before the ages and is called the 'firstborn of/over all creation.'You won't find any scripture that says the Son was created with 'His Word.' Sorry.
When was the Son begotten (not created but brought forth) before the ages…probably day one of the week of creation.
When was Christ begotten in the flesh…Dec. 25th. When was Christ conceived according to the flesh…about nine months before that.you said:
Quote So you do agree that The Father is the Ultimate and Highest Authority that much you have already said. So all semantics aside what you call the one having the Highest Authority is what we call GOD ALMIGHTY. You can call as many people as you like “God” but you have agreed that “The Father” is the Supreme Authority and that is the main point we are trying to share with you now if you reject what I am saying here I already have the post where you agreed on this.
Also, the Father is supreme through the Son and Spirit. This is what you don't seem to get. There is more than one person that is responsible for creation, salvation, sustaining creation, and all the other God sized tasks. They are in unity and act together as one supreme authority. That one complete supreme authority is Jehovah who = the God of gods and the Lord of lords. The Lord of lords is the Son.
I'm glad that you see that the Abrahamic Covenant came through Isaac. What is the other covenant with Abraham that you are speaking of?
Why can't you say this BD:
“My God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?”Mike,
Are there any theos for us as our authority besides the Father and the only begotten theos, the Son?BD,
you said:Quote So all semantics aside what you call the one having the Highest Authority is what we call GOD ALMIGHTY. The Bible calls God Almighty 'Jehovah.' He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 'He', this unity, is all together, two persons and their Spirit…the God of gods and the Lord of lords. Jesus is the Lord of lords. Deut 10:17
Quote (Lightenup @ July 05 2012,15:32) Mike,
Are there any theos for us as our authority besides the Father and the only begotten theos, the Son?
I don't know about now, Kathi, but I assume their will be. The Apostles will sit on thrones with Jesus and rule over us with him, right? And by this time, they will have been changed from flesh beings to spiritual beings, meaning that they can also be called “theos”, as angels are.So eventually, we might answer to many who can rightly be called “theos”. The trick for you will be to not confuse them with the Almighty Theos who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them.
But what if there were only two, Kathi? What if Jesus and his God were the only two in existence who had authority over us and were called “theos”? What then? Would that be enough for me to start worshipping the servant of God as if he was the God he serves? Would it be enough for me to illogically believe that the Son of God is the very God he is the Son of? Would it be enough for me to ignore all the scriptures and start believing in TWO Almighty Gods? Never.
Kathi, I believe Asana and I have summed up the crux of the matter for you. You will NEVER get us to believe that there exist TWO Almighty Gods that we should worship. You will NEVER get us to think of God, who is said to be ONE and called “HE” throughout scripture, as a compound unity of God and servant of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2012,08:23) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 05 2012,14:38) So you do agree that The Father is the Ultimate and Highest Authority that much you have already said. So all semantics aside what you call the one having the Highest Authority is what we call GOD ALMIGHTY. You can call as many people as you like “God” but you have agreed that “The Father” is the Supreme Authority and that is the main point we are trying to share with you now if you reject what I am saying here I already have the post where you agreed on this.
I couldn't have said it better, Asana.Kathi, we recognize that Jesus is also called a theos, as are many others in scripture. We recognize that there are many gods, both in heaven and on earth………..yet for us, there is but ONE God, and that ONE God is the Father.
We recognize and honor the Son of the Most High God as our Lord who was appointed by our God and his God. We just will not ever recognize God's Son and servant as the Most High God who brought him into existence.
We will follow the command of our Lord Jesus, who told us to worship and serve as God ONLY the Father – the same one he worships and serves.
No Mike You refined it again.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 06 2012,08:27) BD,
Did you exist before you were born/begotten? I'd say you did, probably for about 9 months. The term 'begotten' does not necessarily equal the very start of existence. I believe that the Son was begotten, i.e. brought forth from within the Father as an offspring that was always within the Father. There is no mention of the Father 'conceiving' the Son before the ages but He was begotten before the ages and is called the 'firstborn of/over all creation.'You won't find any scripture that says the Son was created with 'His Word.' Sorry.
When was the Son begotten (not created but brought forth) before the ages…probably day one of the week of creation.
When was Christ begotten in the flesh…Dec. 25th. When was Christ conceived according to the flesh…about nine months before that.you said:
Quote So you do agree that The Father is the Ultimate and Highest Authority that much you have already said. So all semantics aside what you call the one having the Highest Authority is what we call GOD ALMIGHTY. You can call as many people as you like “God” but you have agreed that “The Father” is the Supreme Authority and that is the main point we are trying to share with you now if you reject what I am saying here I already have the post where you agreed on this.
Also, the Father is supreme through the Son and Spirit. This is what you don't seem to get. There is more than one person that is responsible for creation, salvation, sustaining creation, and all the other God sized tasks. They are in unity and act together as one supreme authority. That one complete supreme authority is Jehovah who = the God of gods and the Lord of lords. The Lord of lords is the Son.
I'm glad that you see that the Abrahamic Covenant came through Isaac. What is the other covenant with Abraham that you are speaking of?
Why can't you say this BD:
“My God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?”
Tfirst covenant was the covenant of circumcision and Abraham and Ishmael were circumcised that same day. Isaac was circomcised later but that was the original covenant with AbrahamQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2012,09:09) Quote (Lightenup @ July 05 2012,15:32) Mike,
Are there any theos for us as our authority besides the Father and the only begotten theos, the Son?
I don't know about now, Kathi, but I assume their will be. The Apostles will sit on thrones with Jesus and rule over us with him, right? And by this time, they will have been changed from flesh beings to spiritual beings, meaning that they can also be called “theos”, as angels are.So eventually, we might answer to many who can rightly be called “theos”. The trick for you will be to not confuse them with the Almighty Theos who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them.
But what if there were only two, Kathi? What if Jesus and his God were the only two in existence who had authority over us and were called “theos”? What then? Would that be enough for me to start worshipping the servant of God as if he was the God he serves? Would it be enough for me to illogically believe that the Son of God is the very God he is the Son of? Would it be enough for me to ignore all the scriptures and start believing in TWO Almighty Gods? Never.
Kathi, I believe Asana and I have summed up the crux of the matter for you. You will NEVER get us to believe that there exist TWO Almighty Gods that we should worship. You will NEVER get us to think of God, who is said to be ONE and called “HE” throughout scripture, as a compound unity of God and servant of God.
EXACTLY! NEVER shall we invest ourselves in a lie:Romans 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.Kathi,
I pray that you accept the fact that for us, there is but one God Almighty, the Father. But He has a Son, Priest, Servant, Mediator, and Anointed One that He set up as King and Lord over us. That one is also very powerful and deserves much praise and honor, but he is not the Most High God who begot him and set him on high.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,13:03) Kathi, I pray that you accept the fact that for us, there is but one God Almighty, the Father. But He has a Son, Priest, Servant, Mediator, and Anointed One that He set up as King and Lord over us. That one is also very powerful and deserves much praise and honor, but he is not the Most High God who begot him and set him on high.
Hi Mike In all fairness to Kathi and so she won't claim you simply don't understand. She has clearly explained that she believes in “Gods” that work in union together as “God” She doesn't believe the Father and Son are one being, she simply believes that these two different beings are equivalents in quality and nature. So to her she is explaining a “God” family unit.
She is saying that there is “God” and additionally “The begotten God” so she believes in two Gods serving one purpose. I have to make sure she knows that I understand what she is explaining.
The point is she will not see that even by her standards an Unbegotten God would be the ONLY TRUE GOD simply because it was not Begotten, created or made, HE wasn't brought forth sent by anyone or directed to any task.
The Unbegotten God is not anointed by something greater for there is none greater but HE anoints whom HE pleases and it pleased HIM to make Jesus HIS Christ and Christ is his position to call him “God” when he is calling another being greater than himself “God” is a huge mistake so Kathi needs to follow Jesus and go through him to get to know “GOD” and stop calling the door the destination.
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