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Can souls die?
Matt. 10:28: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul [or, “life”]; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul* and body in Gehenna.” (*Greek has the accusative case of psy·khe´. KJ, AS, RS, NE, TEV, Dy, JB, and NAB all render it “soul.”)
Acts 3:23: “Indeed, any soul [Greek, psy·khe´] that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.”
Is the soul the same as the spirit?
Eccl. 12:7: “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit [or, life-force; Hebrew, ru´ach] itself returns to the true God who gave it.” (Notice that the Hebrew word for spirit is ru´ach; but the word translated soul is ne´phesh. The text does not mean that at death the spirit travels all the way to the personal presence of God; rather, any prospect for the person to live again rests with God. In similar usage, we may say that, if required payments are not made by the buyer of a piece of property, the property “returns” to its owner.) (KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy all here render ru´ach as “spirit.” NAB reads “life breath.”)
Where are the dead?
Gen. 3:19: “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” KJ, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV], the place to which you are going.”
What is the condition of the dead?
Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “all his thinking,” NE; “plans,” RS, NAB] do perish.”
John 11:11-14: “‘Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.’ . . . Jesus said to them outspokenly: ‘Lazarus has died.’” (Also Psalm 13:3)
Is there some part of man that lives on when the body dies?
Ezek. 18:4: “The soul [“soul,” RS, NE, KJ, Dy, Kx; “man,” JB; “person,” TEV] that is sinning—it itself will die.”
Isa. 53:12: “He poured out his soul [“soul,” RS, KJ, Dy; “life,” TEV; “himself,” JB, Kx, NAB] to the very death.” (Compare Matthew 26:38.)
I know I'm doing the exact opposite of what I recommended. but eventually I would have put all these scriptures somewhere on this forum. I thought, why not put them all in the same spot. Also, I need time to catch up to everyone else, so you can read this over while I'm reading what's been posted in the last day.
That was my point to Nick concerning Abel's blood that cried out from the ground ( Gen.4:9-10) to Yah.
Eliyah C.
Quote (david @ Sep. 12 2005,05:53) Where are the dead? Gen. 3:19: “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” KJ, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV], the place to which you are going.”
What is the condition of the dead?
Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “all his thinking,” NE; “plans,” RS, NAB] do perish.”
John 11:11-14: “‘Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.’ . . . Jesus said to them outspokenly: ‘Lazarus has died.’” (Also Psalm 13:3)
Is there some part of man that lives on when the body dies?
Ezek. 18:4: “The soul [“soul,” RS, NE, KJ, Dy, Kx; “man,” JB; “person,” TEV] that is sinning—it itself will die.”
Isa. 53:12: “He poured out his soul [“soul,” RS, KJ, Dy; “life,” TEV; “himself,” JB, Kx, NAB] to the very death.” (Compare Matthew 26:38.)
Hi D,
” those who sleep in death”
It is fine to speak of death as only physical death of the body but we are more than body as Matt 10 28 tells us.
The second death is far more relevant.Elijah,
I'd like to start by saying that, what you know and believe is fascinating to me.
Elijah, something just occured to me. I'm wondering how many people subscribe to your thoughts on baal gad = lord god.
Because if it's just you, I'm wondering how Jehovah is going to use you to help others to hear this? I mean, Jehovah is just. He's not going to destroy people without giving them fair warning. If you are the vehicle for that warning, how will you reach them. 'How will they call on him without someone to preach,' sort of thing.
I'm wondering how many people know what you know. And I'm wondering what they're doing about it.
And I'm wondering: If you have no hope of reaching any significant number of people….Nick, did you read my previous post?
The “” SECOND DEATH “” does NOT occur until AFTER the 1,000 year period( Rev.20:5-6), not at the instance of “” the first death “”.
Eliyah C.
The word “soul” in the scriptures, is not completely black and white.
Matthew 10:28 states that God “can destroy both soul [psy·khen´] and body in Gehenna.” This shows that psy·khe´ does not refer to something immortal or indestructible. There is, in fact, not one case in the entire Scriptures, Hebrew and Greek, in which the words ne´phesh or psy·khe´ are modified by terms such as immortal, indestructible, imperishable, deathless, or the like.
On the other hand, there are scores of texts in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures that speak of the ne´phesh or psy·khe´ (soul) as mortal and subject to death (Ge 19:19, 20; Nu 23:10; Jos 2:13, 14; Jg 5:18; 16:16, 30; 1Ki 20:31, 32; Ps 22:29; Eze 18:4, 20; Mt 2:20; 26:38; Mr 3:4; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20); as dying, being “cut off” or destroyed (Ge 17:14; Ex 12:15; Le 7:20; 23:29; Jos 10:28-39; Ps 78:50; Eze 13:19; 22:27; Ac 3:23; Re 8:9; 16:3), whether by sword (Jos 10:37; Eze 33:6) or by suffocation (Job 7:15), or being in danger of death due to drowning (Jon 2:5); and also as going down into the pit or into Sheol (Job 33:22; Ps 89:48) or being delivered therefrom (Ps 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; Pr 23:14).Dead soul. The expression ‘deceased or dead soul’ also appears a number of times, meaning simply “a dead person.”—Le 19:28; 21:1, 11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6; Hag 2:13; compare Nu 19:11, 13.
NICK, THERE ARE MANY INSTANCES IN THE SCRIPTURES where “soul” means “life.”
Examples of the use of the Greek psy·khe´ to mean “life as a creature” may be found at Matthew 6:25; 10:39; 16:25, 26; Luke 12:20; John 10:11, 15; 13:37, 38; 15:13; Acts 20:10. Since God’s servants have the hope of a resurrection in the event of death, they have the hope of living again as “souls,” or living creatures. For that reason Jesus could say that “whoever loses his soul [his life as a creature] for the sake of me and the good news will save it. Really, of what benefit is it for a man to gain the whole world and to forfeit his soul? What, really, would a man give in exchange for his soul?” (Mr 8:35-37) Similarly, he stated: “He that is fond of his soul destroys it, but he that hates his soul in this world will safeguard it for everlasting life.” (Joh 12:25) These texts, and others like them, show the correct understanding of Jesus’ words at Matthew 10:28: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” While men can kill the body, they cannot kill the person for all time, inasmuch as he lives in God’s purpose (compare Lu 20:37, 38) and God can and will restore such faithful one to life as a creature by means of a resurrection. For God’s servants, the loss of their “soul,” or life as a creature, is only temporary, not permanent.—Compare Re 12:11.
Regarding this text, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (edited by C. Brown, 1978, Vol. 3, p. 304) states: “Matt. 10:28 teaches not the potential immortality of the soul but the irreversibility of divine judgment on the unrepentant.” Also, Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 95) gives the meaning “eternal death” with reference to the Greek phrase in Matthew 10:28 translated “destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.”
I agree with Elijah on the timing of the second death. So do the scriptures.
Notice the many many many sciptures above that refer to “soul” as something that can be “killed,” “destroyed,” etc.
In the Sciptures, “soul” is translated from the Hebrew ne´phesh and the Greek psy·khe´. Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.
And ( Matt.10:28) is referring to “” THE SECOND DEATH “”( Rev.20:13-14), which does not occur until AFTER the 1,000 year period( Rev.20:5-6).
Eliyah
Quote (david @ Sep. 12 2005,05:57) Nick, I want your avatar. I don't like mine.
me me me. No david seriously you can't have it!But yours is cool. Mine is this guy with scary eyes that actually freaks me out a little. you have this mysterious hat head down book smarts kind of look going on.
Quote (Eliyah @ Sep. 12 2005,06:15) And ( Matt.10:28) is referring to “” THE SECOND DEATH “”( Rev.20:13-14), which does not occur until AFTER the 1,000 year period( Rev.20:5-6). Eliyah
Hi e,
Once again you have gone off on a tangent.Of course the second death
is
After the first resurrection
After the 1000 yr reign
After the White throne/sheep and goat judgement on the nations- the saved will not be involved as they have already faced the tribunal of Christ 2Cor 5.10,Matt 25.14f.Nick, according to you earlier, the dead in Messiah has already been judged, and waiting under the Throne in Heaven, then why would they be judged AGAIN at Messiah's return??
Sorry Dave, but I never had a subscription to that magazine to cancel.
However, I have studied their doctrines as well as many others.
I have the “” New World Translation ” in BOTH English and French, and BOTH Volumes 1 and 2 of “” Insight on the scriptures “, as well as other booklets of the JWs.
I know very well what they believe and teach, as I do many many other religious teachings.
Eliyah C.
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