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Nick, Messiah said, “” AFTER ” the tribulation he shall send his angel WITH A SOUND OF A TRUMPET( Matt.24:29-31) compare with ( 1 Cor.15:52) of THE LAST TRUMPET, and with( 1 Thess.4) of THE TRUMP OF YAH, and ( Rev.11:15) of THE SEVENTH( LAST)ANGEL SOUNDED HIS TRUMPET.
All these ” TRUMPETS ” are the same time, and that does not occur untill AFTER THE TRIBULATION( Matt.24:29-31).
Your Pre-trib rapture doctrine is in serious error.
Read my Article below.
Pre-tribulationists have propagated the notion of a “secret rapture” of the church, based on a misunderstanding of I Corinthians 15:51-52, and for theological purposes relating to their position. Before examining the Corinthian text to ascertain its meaning, we must first deal with the theological connection of the secret rapture teaching to the doctrine of the pre-tribulational rapture of the church.
While not a central teaching of the pre-tribulation doctrine, the secret rapture teaching is viewed to some degree as a logical corollary to the position. The reason such a teaching is so important to the position is because the Scripture is clear that the next appearance of the Messiah on earth will be the second coming (Matthew 24:23-31; Acts 1:11; II Thessalonians 2:8; Revelation 1:7), which is to take place at the end of Daniel’s 70th week (tribulation period).
Pre-tribulationists, who maintain that Messiah will return for His church seven years( or 3 and 1/2 years) before His return, must explain how Messiah can descend from heaven in return for His bride (I Thessalonians 4:16) before the second coming, without physically returning to the earth, and without being seen.
They find the solution with the teaching of the secret rapture. At the rapture of the church, it is believed that Messiah will descend from heaven in the clouds (but not visible to the earths people) while the saints are translated through the atmosphere in “a blink of an eye” to meet the Messiah in the air, to immediately return to heaven with the Messiah for the duration of the three and one half or seven year tribulation.
Having examined the theological and logical necessity of the position, let us now examine the scriptural basis for a secret rapture. First Corinthians( 1 Cor. 15:51-52) is cited as evidence for the teaching, but the pre-tribulationists’ interpretation of the passage is problematic for several reasons. The passage is as follows:
Quote:
Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.All verse divisions have been purposely omitted so the passage can be read as it would have appeared to the original readers. This is necessary because the verse division between verse 51 and 52 causes many to view verse 52 as the start of a new thought, in contradistinction to the subject of verse 51.
Such is not the case. Verse 52 is a continuation of the sentence in verse 51. Most English translations blur this due to the fact that a comma or hyphen is inserted after the word “changed.” When reading the passage without the verse divisions, or without the comma, we find Paul to be teaching that we shall all be changed in a moment. No mention is made of being raptured in a moment.
It is usually assumed that Paul’s topic of discussion here is the rapture, but the word “rapture” is never found in the passage, nor is the concept of a rapture indicated. The context is clear that Paul’s subject is the resurrection to a spiritual body, not the translation of the body to go to heaven.
The context of ( I Corinthians 15) is consumed with the idea of the resurrection of the dead, and the nature of the resurrected spiritual body. Paul spoke of believers being “changed” at the resurrection, which is a reference to future glorified spiritual bodies, not the event or speed of a rapture to go to heaven.
Paul’s reference to “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP…” is a reference to the TIME and speed of the RESURRECTION to a glorification to a spiritual body (the change from mortality to immortality, from corruption to incorruption), not the speed of a rapture.
One will be changed from a natural, mortal, corruptible body to a spiritual, immortal, and incorruptible body in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMPET.
The main verse used for the ” rapture ” is ( 1 Thess.4:17) which says “” Quote:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them( the dead-now resurrected) in the clouds, to meet the Messiah in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Messiah.
“” Unquote.Those who believe in ” the rapture ” pay more attention to the words “” CAUGHT UP “”, than they do the precise TIME of this great event.
Paul also states, “” Quote:
19 If in this life only we have hope in Messiah, we are of all men most miserable.20 But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.( notice that death is portrayed as a deep sleep, See Also St.John 11:11-14).
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to YAH( El ), even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.( 1Cor.15:19-24)
“” Unquote.Now, let's put ( 1 Thess.4:13-17) “”Quote:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep( dead in Messiah), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Yahshua died and rose again, even so them also which sleep( the dead) in Yahshua will YAH( El) bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Messiah, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Messiah shall not prevent them which are asleep( the dead in Messiah).
16 For the Messiah himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP( ET) OF YAH( El ) : and the dead in Messiah shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds( air), to meet the Messiah in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Messiah.
Unquote.The KEY TIME element of this event is “” Quote:
AT THE LAST TRUMP OR TRUMPET
“” Unquote.The Desciple John also gave more insight concerning this SAME EVENT when he wrote “”Quote:
15 And the seventh angel ( trumpet) sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our YAH( El), and of his Messiah ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
“” Unquote.Now let us let the Messiah Himself interpret THE PRECISE TIMING of the “”Quote:
LAST SEVENTH TRUMPET
“” of this great event, THE RESURRECTION of the dead, and the CHANGE from mortal to immortal eternal life.Yahshua Messiah said, “”Quote:
Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
( Isa 13:10 Mark 13:25 Luke 21:26 )30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall SEE the Son of man coming in the clouds of h
eaven with power and great glory.
(Zech 12:12 Dan 7:13 Mark 13:26 Luke 21:27 )31 And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Deut 30:4; 1 Thess 4:16,17 ) ((( MATT.24:29-31)
“” Unquote.ALL of these “”Quote: TRUMPETS”” are the ONE and the SAME TRUMPET, and the Messiah Himself says that this great event will take place “” Quote:
AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS( MATT.24:29-31)
“” Unquote.But do those that are RESURRECTED and CHANGED to immortal spiritual bodies go back to heaven ? Why would they go back to heaven for, the tribulation is over and past? No!
Those that are still alive on this earth when Messiah returns, shall be CHANGED( from mortal to immortal spirit), and those that SLEEP in DEATH in Messiah shall be RESURRECTED to immortallity with a spiritual body, and ALL shall rise to meet the coming Messiah in the clouds( air), and His( Messiah's) feet shall stand IN THAT DAY UPON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES( Zech.14:3-4; Acts 1:10-12), and the Messiah and His set apart CHOSEN shall REIGN ON THE EARTH( Rev.5:10).
Thank you for taking the time to read this Article
Eliyah on the net!
i thought this was interesting when i saw this a long time ago. here's a free video showing about what some people think about them going to heaven. it's in the middle of the page area. http://www.harpazo.net/TheGoodTest/
i think we should accept the bible and not follow only one line about faith, or only one line about works. there are many contingencies in life, we must listen and understand the word of God.
Quote (Eliyah @ Sep. 09 2005,06:13) Nick, Messiah said, “” AFTER ” the tribulation he shall send his angel WITH A SOUND OF A TRUMPET( Matt.24:29-31) compare with ( 1 Cor.15:52) of THE LAST TRUMPET, and with( 1 Thess.4) of THE TRUMP OF YAH, and ( Rev.11:15) of THE SEVENTH( LAST)ANGEL SOUNDED HIS TRUMPET. All these ” TRUMPETS ” are the same time, and that does not occur untill AFTER THE TRIBULATION( Matt.24:29-31).
Your Pre-trib rapture doctrine is in serious error.
Read my Article below.
Pre-tribulationists have propagated the notion of a “secret rapture” of the church, based on a misunderstanding of I Corinthians 15:51-52, and for theological purposes relating to their position. Before examining the Corinthian text to ascertain its meaning, we must first deal with the theological connection of the secret rapture teaching to the doctrine of the pre-tribulational rapture of the church.
While not a central teaching of the pre-tribulation doctrine, the secret rapture teaching is viewed to some degree as a logical corollary to the position. The reason such a teaching is so important to the position is because the Scripture is clear that the next appearance of the Messiah on earth will be the second coming (Matthew 24:23-31; Acts 1:11; II Thessalonians 2:8; Revelation 1:7), which is to take place at the end of Daniel’s 70th week (tribulation period).
Pre-tribulationists, who maintain that Messiah will return for His church seven years( or 3 and 1/2 years) before His return, must explain how Messiah can descend from heaven in return for His bride (I Thessalonians 4:16) before the second coming, without physically returning to the earth, and without being seen.
They find the solution with the teaching of the secret rapture. At the rapture of the church, it is believed that Messiah will descend from heaven in the clouds (but not visible to the earths people) while the saints are translated through the atmosphere in “a blink of an eye” to meet the Messiah in the air, to immediately return to heaven with the Messiah for the duration of the three and one half or seven year tribulation.
Having examined the theological and logical necessity of the position, let us now examine the scriptural basis for a secret rapture. First Corinthians( 1 Cor. 15:51-52) is cited as evidence for the teaching, but the pre-tribulationists’ interpretation of the passage is problematic for several reasons. The passage is as follows:
Quote:
Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.All verse divisions have been purposely omitted so the passage can be read as it would have appeared to the original readers. This is necessary because the verse division between verse 51 and 52 causes many to view verse 52 as the start of a new thought, in contradistinction to the subject of verse 51.
Such is not the case. Verse 52 is a continuation of the sentence in verse 51. Most English translations blur this due to the fact that a comma or hyphen is inserted after the word “changed.” When reading the passage without the verse divisions, or without the comma, we find Paul to be teaching that we shall all be changed in a moment. No mention is made of being raptured in a moment.
It is usually assumed that Paul’s topic of discussion here is the rapture, but the word “rapture” is never found in the passage, nor is the concept of a rapture indicated. The context is clear that Paul’s subject is the resurrection to a spiritual body, not the translation of the body to go to heaven.
The context of ( I Corinthians 15) is consumed with the idea of the resurrection of the dead, and the nature of the resurrected spiritual body. Paul spoke of believers being “changed” at the resurrection, which is a reference to future glorified spiritual bodies, not the event or speed of a rapture to go to heaven.
Paul’s reference to “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP…” is a reference to the TIME and speed of the RESURRECTION to a glorification to a spiritual body (the change from mortality to immortality, from corruption to incorruption), not the speed of a rapture.
One will be changed from a natural, mortal, corruptible body to a spiritual, immortal, and incorruptible body in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMPET.
The main verse used for the ” rapture ” is ( 1 Thess.4:17) which says “” Quote:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them( the dead-now resurrected) in the clouds, to meet the Messiah in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Messiah.
“” Unquote.Those who believe in ” the rapture ” pay more attention to the words “” CAUGHT UP “”, than they do the precise TIME of this great event.
Paul also states, “” Quote:
19 If in this life only we have hope in Messiah, we are of all men most miserable.20 But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.( notice that death is portrayed as a deep sleep, See Also St.John 11:11-14).
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to YAH( El ), even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.( 1Cor.15:19-24)
“” Unquote.Now, let's put ( 1 Thess.4:13-17) “”Quote:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep( dead in Messiah), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Yahshua died and rose again, even so them also which sleep( the dead) in Yahshua will YAH( El) bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Messiah, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Messiah shall not prevent them which are asleep( the dead in Messiah).
16 For the Messiah himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP( ET) OF YAH( El ) : and the dead in Messiah shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds( air), to meet the Messiah in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Messiah.
Unquote.The KEY TIME element of this event is “” Quote:
AT THE LAST TRUMP OR TRUMPET
“” Unquote.The Desciple John also gave more insight concerning this SAME EVENT when he wrote “”Quote:
15 And the seventh angel ( trumpet) sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our YAH( El), and of his Messiah ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
“” Unquote.Now let us let the Messiah Himself interpret THE PRECISE TIMING of the “”Quote:
LAST SEVENTH TRUMPET
“” of this great event, THE RESURRECTION of the dead, and the CHANGE from mortal to immortal eternal life.Yahshua Messiah said, “”Quote:
Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
( Isa 13:10 Mark 13:25 Luke 21:26 )30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall SEE the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(Zech 12:12 Dan 7:13 Mark 13:26 Luke 21:27 )31 And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Deut 30:4; 1 Thess 4:16,17 ) ((( MATT.24:29-31)
“” Unquote.ALL of these “”Quote: TRUMPETS”” are the ONE and the SAME TRUMPET, and the Messiah Himself says that this great event will take place “” Quote:
AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS( MATT.24:29-31)
“” Unquote.But do those that are RESURRECTED and CHANGED to immortal spiritual bodies go back to heaven ? Why would they go back to heaven for, the tribulation is over and past? No!
Those that are still alive on this earth when Messiah returns, shall be CHANGED( from mortal to immortal spirit), and those that SLEEP in DEATH in Messiah shall be RESURRECTED to immortallity with a spiritual body, and ALL shall rise to meet the coming Messiah in the clouds( air), and His( Messiah's) feet shall stand IN THAT DAY UPON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES( Zech.14:3-4; Acts 1:10-12), and the Messiah and His set apart CHOSEN shall REIGN ON THE EARTH( Rev.5:10).
Thank you for taking the time to read this Article
Eliyah on the net!
Thank you eliyah,
Very helpful and I will ponder it.Hi Eliyah,
I am glad you brought up this subject. There are some mysteries. the coming of Jesus is a complete shock to those of the world. Life is described as going on as normal in some ways till that day. Yet the events of the great tribulation could not miss anyone's attention surely. How can this be? Could the events be spread over many lifetimes[Like WW1 and WW2?] so that so one puts it all together? Or could they be scattered over the globe and not affect everyone. Not likely.
The trumpets feature in many scriptures. Could they also relate to the feast of trumpets? The jewish people expect the Messiah to come on the feast of trumpets which occurs in the first week of October.Nick, You said, “”
Quote Hi Eliyah,
I am glad you brought up this subject. There are some mysteries. the coming of Jesus is a complete shock to those of the world. Life is described as going on as normal in some ways till that day. Yet the events of the great tribulation could not miss anyone's attention surely. How can this be? Could the events be spread over many lifetimes[Like WW1 and WW2?] so that so one puts it all together? Or could they be scattered over the globe and not affect everyone. Not likely.
The trumpets feature in many scriptures. Could they also relate to the feast of trumpets? The jewish people expect the Messiah to come on the feast of trumpets which occurs in the first week of October.””First of all, the Jewish Nation DOES NOT observe the true scriptural Hebrew Calendar.
The “” Moeds”( Strongs Heb.Number 4150)ie-Appointed times( Lev.23:1-7) are determined by the phases of the moon( Gen.1:14-15; Psalms 104:19), not by modern Jewish man's reckoning of today.
The true scriptural Hebrew Calendar is plainly used throughout the scriptures, and every time in scriptures that you can find and pinpoint a ” sabbath day ” it will ALWAYS be on the “” 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th days in each and every month “” without exception.
The Modern Jews ( of the Roman Saturday) and the modern traditional christianity( of their Roman Sunday)do not observe the scriptural “” sabbath days “” as is used in the scriptures.
If this makes any sence to you?
While it is true that we cannot know the ” day nor the hour ” of Messiah's return, yet He plainly says that His Elect would know “” the signs of the times of the seasons “.
It could be possible that Messiah may return on the feast of trumpets( tho not this year, as many things have not been fulfilled yet), but one thing is for certain, His return DOES NOT happen untill AFTER the “” TIME OF TROUBLE SO GREAT IN MAN'S HISTORY, and THE SEVEN LAST PLAQUES IS POURED OUT.( Rev.11:15).
The true Creator Yah can protect His People here on Earth the same as He did THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL in ( Exodus 12) while the plaques were being poured out on Egypt.Remember?
Eliyah C.
Well how can people believe on the “” LAAARD “” when they have NEVER even heard His true Name of YAH( Psalms 68:4) to call on it( Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Acts 4:10-12; Rom.10:9-15–)?
?Here is the Modern Catholic Baal ministers prayer, “”
Quote Hail Mury full of grease, the LAARD is with thee. What a joke and laugh.:D
Quote (Eliyah @ Sep. 10 2005,23:44) Well how can people believe on the “” LAAARD “” when they have NEVER even heard His true Name of YAH( Psalms 68:4) to call on it( Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Acts 4:10-12; Rom.10:9-15–)? ?Here is the Modern Catholic Baal ministers prayer, “”
Quote Hail Mury full of grease, the LAARD is with thee. What a joke and laugh.:D
Hi Eliyah,
The hilarity you have shown here does little for our impression of you. I am surprised you do not show more respect for she of whom was said
“All generations shall call me blessed'Listen Nick, I'm not disrespecting Miriam, whom is called blessed, I merely made a joke concerning modern catholicism and their expressions they use today, because they hide the ONLY true Name of YAH and Yahshua for salvation( Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21;Acts 4:10-12; Rom.10:9-15).
If you want to mis-understand me, and take my words the wrong way, then that is your problem.
But, I meant no disrespect either way you want to take it.
And, second, i'm not here to impress and please persons either, but i'm here to declare the truth of Almighty YAH.
But, just what is people's impression of YAH the true HOLY FATHER( John 17:11) and His truth that I have posted ??
The “” Pope “” IS NOT the ” HOLY FATHER “” Nick, but YAH( Psalms 68:4) REALLY IS.
Eliyah C.
Question to all and especially to You Nick.
How serious do you really value receiving Eternal Life, and the real true NAME of the PERSONS in original scriptures who can really give it to You??
Better think seriously about that!!
Eliyah C.
Hi eliyah,
Is agreement with you compulsory?
Does this truth, if it is truth, belong to you?
Do you need positive feedback or are you more secure than that ?Perhaps a little more humility and less contempt for others, especially God approved ones such as Mary, might be more influential.
nick hassan, i give zero respect to mary. she's dead. jesus said to let the dead bury the dead and to go and follow him.
mary worship is wrong. the rosary prayer is repetitious and long when jesus said that there were wrong people who pray so long thinking that the length of time will make it better, but they should pray “like this.”
mary worshipers say that she acts as an intercessor. wrong. only jesus christ is according to the bible.
jesus said something like “who is my mother? who is my brother?” to the crowd, and he did not give special attention to mary.
i haven't researched every line here, but maybe this can convince you. http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/MARYCULT.HTM
Nick, You said, “”Hi eliyah,
Is agreement with you compulsory?
Does this truth, if it is truth, belong to you?
Do you need positive feedback or are you more secure than that ?Perhaps a little more humility and less contempt for others, especially God approved ones such as Mary, might be more influential.”” Unquote.
Nick, I have no contempt for anyone, and i don't like it, when people try to put words in my mouth that i don't say or mean either.
But, since you mention being disrespectable to ” Mary “, no one is to worship or pray to Mary, and neither in her name.
Your ” gad ” did not approve anyone, it is only YAH who approves, but Mirriam cannot save anyone, only Yahshua of Nazareth can do that.
Nick, I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, and the truth that I do have, it was not mine to start with, but i was only sharing it with my fellowman, that he want incur Yah's wrath upon them.
I asked you a question earlier but I see you did not answer it.
Eliyah C.
Quote (BrandonIke @ Sep. 11 2005,04:44) nick hassan, i give zero respect to mary. she's dead. jesus said to let the dead bury the dead and to go and follow him. mary worship is wrong. the rosary prayer is repetitious and long when jesus said that there were wrong people who pray so long thinking that the length of time will make it better, but they should pray “like this.”
mary worshipers say that she acts as an intercessor. wrong. only jesus christ is according to the bible.
jesus said something like “who is my mother? who is my brother?” to the crowd, and he did not give special attention to mary.
i haven't researched every line here, but maybe this can convince you. http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/MARYCULT.HTM
Hi eliyah.
Do you respect Peter or Paul or any of the others who help us in our search for truth?
No one is talking of worshipping Mary or these others here.
Just the awareness that there are many who make up the body of Christ on earth and each needs the other.“each needs the other” is wrong. they're dead. we should work together with live men. but we are from the dust and ashes.
truly, we all need our heavenly Father. in the book of job, it is shown, we were not there when the foundation of the earth was made.
one of the pagan attackers of the land of the hebrews was prideful and boasted that he was so great to take down the hebrews or something, when in reality, no. our heavenly Father was punishing the tribes of israel.
we don't need the ancestral dead and they are not needing us. the bible was inspired by our heavenly Father. and He so loved the world, that He sent His only begotten son.
i've been thinking of “each needs the other” more. jesus took fisherman and said something like “come, and i'll make you fishers of men.” and they left their work, the boat(s), their home, whatever.
“each needs the other.” the disciples dispersed after jesus christ was arrested.
i don't see how mary needs paul and paul needs peter and peter needs mary. they're dead. jesus christ told the disciples to spread the good news. they were messengers. the messengers don't need each other, but they need the one who sent them. jesus christ. our heavenly Father sent jesus christ. we need our heavenly Father.
Quote (BrandonIke @ Sep. 11 2005,08:24) “each needs the other” is wrong. they're dead. we should work together with live men. but we are from the dust and ashes. truly, we all need our heavenly Father. in the book of job, it is shown, we were not there when the foundation of the earth was made.
one of the pagan attackers of the land of the hebrews was prideful and boasted that he was so great to take down the hebrews or something, when in reality, no. our heavenly Father was punishing the tribes of israel.
we don't need the ancestral dead and they are not needing us. the bible was inspired by our heavenly Father. and He so loved the world, that He sent His only begotten son.
Hi b,
If Abraham lives, and Jesus says he does, then so too do Paul, Peter and Mary. They may sleep in the earth but their works for us live on and we need all the apostles' living words still today.
They remain part of the body that we have been called to be part of. They deserve respect and honour that we have not yet proven to be worthy of.“each needs the other” here's more for you, nick hassan. some of the disciples wanted to stop a preacher who spoke in jesus christ's name but who wasn't a part of the group, but jesus christ said not to stop that man because whoever is not against them is for them. i did not memorize the exact quote.
also, disciples wanted to stop children from seeing jesus christ, but that was wrong.
if you talk about needing each other or not needing each other, how do you explain these things? i don't think it's right to say “each needs the other” concerning 3 dead people, mary, paul, peter.
there is life after death, but you do not judge who lives or who does not live. i think there was a passage in the gospels when the disciples were arguing amongst themselves who will be higher in heaven. i think possibly a parent of 2 brothers asked jesus christ to put them at seats to his side, but jesus christ said that is not for him to judge, but our heavenly Father judges.
we can learn from scripture. we cannot give a special remembrance and thought for the dead people from earth. i do not see that from scripture. i remember i think the last king before in the old testament was surprised, amazed at reading or hearing the scripture for the first time, but i do not remember a quote that states all christians must respect those who have died. they are dead from this world as people. i did not mean that they have stopped living after this world and are nothing. but i am going by scripture, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. let the dead take care of the dead.
when i said they were dead, i did not mean there was automatic oblivion after death for mary, peter, paul. i believe there can be life after death.
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