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Irenaueus mentions the only begotten God:
Quote 11. If, then, neither Moses, nor Elias, nor Ezekiel, who had all many celestial visions, did see God; but if what they did see were similitudes of the splendour of the Lord, and prophecies of things to come; it is manifest that the Father is indeed invisible, of whom also the Lord said, “No man hath seen God at any time.” But His Word, as He Himself willed it, and for the benefit of those who beheld, did show the Father’s brightness, and explained His purposes (as also the Lord said: “The only-begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him];” and He does Himself also interpret the Word of the Father as being rich and great) ; not in one figure, nor in one character, did He appear to those seeing Him, but according to the reasons and effects aimed at in His dispensations, as it is written in Daniel. For at one time He was seen with those who were around Ananias, Azarias, Misaël, as present with them in the furnace of fire, in the burning, and preserving them from [the effects of] fire: “And the appearance of the fourth,” it is said, “was like to the Son of God.”40984098 Dan. iii. 26. At another time [He is represented as] “a stone cut out of the mountain without hands,”40994099 Dan. vii. 13, 14. and as smiting all temporal kingdoms, and as blowing them away (ventilans ea), and as Himself filling all the earth. Then, too, is this same individual beheld as the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, and drawing near to the Ancient of Days, and receiving from Him all power and glory, and a kingdom. “His dominion,” it is said, “is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom shall not perish.”41004100 Dan. vii. 4. John also, the Lord’s disciple, when beholding the sacerdotal and glorious advent of His kingdom, says in the Apocalypse: “I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And, being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the candlesticks One like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle; and His head and His hairs were white, as white as wool, and as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire; and His feet like unto fine brass, as if He burned in a furnace. And His voice [was] as the voice of waters; and He had in His right hand seven stars; and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword; and His countenance was as the sun shining in his strength.”41014101 Rev. i. 12. For in these words He sets forth something of the glory [which He has received] from His Father, as [where He makes mention of] the head; something in reference to the priestly office also, as in the case of the long garment reaching to the feet. And this was the reason why Moses vested the high priest after this fashion. Something also alludes to the end [of all things], as [where He speaks of] the fine brass burning in the fire, which denotes the power of faith, and the continuing instant in prayer, because of the consuming fire which is to come at the end of time. But when John could not endure the sight (for he says, “I fell at his feet as dead;”41024102 Rev. i. 17. that what was written might come to pass: “No man sees God, and shall live”41034103 Ex. xxxiii. 20. ), and the Word reviving him, and reminding him that it was He upon whose bosom he had leaned at supper, when he put the question as to who should betray Him, declared: “I am the first and the last, and He who liveth, and was dead, and behold I am alive for evermore, and have the keys of death and of hell.” And after these things, seeing the same Lord in a second vision, he says: “For I saw in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing as it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.”41044104 Rev. v. 6. And again, he says, speaking of this very same Lamb: “And behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True; and in righteousness doth He judge and make war. And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; having a name written, that no man knoweth but Himself: and He was girded around with a vesture sprinkled with blood: and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies of heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in pure white linen. And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He may smite the nations; and He shall
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rule (pascet) them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of God Almighty. And He hath upon His vesture and upon His thigh a name written, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.”41054105 Rev. xix. 11–17. Thus does the Word of God always preserve the outlines, as it were, of things to come, and points out to men the various forms (species), as it were, of the dispensations of the Father, teaching us the things pertaining to God.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2010,21:56) Irenaueus mentions the only begotten God: Quote 11. If, then, neither Moses, nor Elias, nor Ezekiel, who had all many celestial visions, did see God; but if what they did see were similitudes of the splendour of the Lord, and prophecies of things to come; it is manifest that the Father is indeed invisible, of whom also the Lord said, “No man hath seen God at any time.” But His Word, as He Himself willed it, and for the benefit of those who beheld, did show the Father’s brightness, and explained His purposes (as also the Lord said: “The only-begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him];” and He does Himself also interpret the Word of the Father as being rich and great) ; not in one figure, nor in one character, did He appear to those seeing Him, but according to the reasons and effects aimed at in His dispensations, as it is written in Daniel. For at one time He was seen with those who were around Ananias, Azarias, Misaël, as present with them in the furnace of fire, in the burning, and preserving them from [the effects of] fire: “And the appearance of the fourth,” it is said, “was like to the Son of God.”40984098 Dan. iii. 26. At another time [He is represented as] “a stone cut out of the mountain without hands,”40994099 Dan. vii. 13, 14. and as smiting all temporal kingdoms, and as blowing them away (ventilans ea), and as Himself filling all the earth. Then, too, is this same individual beheld as the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, and drawing near to the Ancient of Days, and receiving from Him all power and glory, and a kingdom. “His dominion,” it is said, “is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom shall not perish.”41004100 Dan. vii. 4. John also, the Lord’s disciple, when beholding the sacerdotal and glorious advent of His kingdom, says in the Apocalypse: “I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And, being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the candlesticks One like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle; and His head and His hairs were white, as white as wool, and as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire; and His feet like unto fine brass, as if He burned in a furnace. And His voice [was] as the voice of waters; and He had in His right hand seven stars; and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword; and His countenance was as the sun shining in his strength.”41014101 Rev. i. 12. For in these words He sets forth something of the glory [which He has received] from His Father, as [where He makes mention of] the head; something in reference to the priestly office also, as in the case of the long garment reaching to the feet. And this was the reason why Moses vested the high priest after this fashion. Something also alludes to the end [of all things], as [where He speaks of] the fine brass burning in the fire, which denotes the power of faith, and the continuing instant in prayer, because of the consuming fire which is to come at the end of time. But when John could not endure the sight (for he says, “I fell at his feet as dead;”41024102 Rev. i. 17. that what was written might come to pass: “No man sees God, and shall live”41034103 Ex. xxxiii. 20. ), and the Word reviving him, and reminding him that it was He upon whose bosom he had leaned at supper, when he put the question as to who should betray Him, declared: “I am the first and the last, and He who liveth, and was dead, and behold I am alive for evermore, and have the keys of death and of hell.” And after these things, seeing the same Lord in a second vision, he says: “For I saw in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing as it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.”41044104 Rev. v. 6. And again, he says, speaking of this very same Lamb: “And behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True; and in righteousness doth He judge and make war. And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; having a name written, that no man knoweth but Himself: and He was girded around with a vesture sprinkled with blood: and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies of heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in pure white linen. And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He may smite the nations; and He shall
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rule (pascet) them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of God Almighty. And He hath upon His vesture and upon His thigh a name written, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.”41054105 Rev. xix. 11–17. Thus does the Word of God always preserve the outlines, as it were, of things to come, and points out to men the various forms (species), as it were, of the dispensations of the Father, teaching us the things pertaining to God.
Good for him. Am I supposed to be impressed?Mat 27:43 “HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.'”
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Mar 3:11 Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down before Him and shout, “You are the Son of God!”
Luk 22:70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”
The Professor
Professor,
Whether you are impressed or not is certainly not why I posted Irenaeus writings. As I read through the early church fathers' writings, I can see why you are so opposed to them since they do not claim that the Holy Spirit is the female person of God and mother of the only begotten Son. I am not putting these up for your response. They interest me…I am intrigued as to their perspective and how they deal with the verses that are wrestled with here. These perspectives are part of the history of the church and learning history is a good thing. Your opinion does not make history something it was not. I get a lot more from reading the early church fathers' writings than most of the posts on HN and so I like to put them up and maybe someone else will also benefit. If you don't like that, fine, you don't have to read them…ok!Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 24 2010,13:52) There is ONE verse in the Bible (NASB) that says “begotten God”: Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only “begotten (of) God” who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
I tried to explain that the word “of” is not used in Greek and was not inserted by translators in English in this verse….see (of) where I inserted it for comparison.
Now remove (of) how does the verse read to you?
Does it make Jesus, the begotten, “God” or does it make you think that Jesus is begotten, “God-natured”?
There is not a right or wrong answer.
Inquiring minds want to see how you “feel” about the two ways this verse could be written and interpreted.
The Professor
Hi David,
WHY DOES NO-ONE LISTEN ? lol
Every Bible translation is quoted in this thread (and all the others) EXCEPT the one which is a WORD FOR WORD translation, Youngs Literal,
We have the NET, NIV, NASB, NLT, MSG, BBE, NRSV, NKJV ….WHY is the YLT ignored ? Perhaps because the modern versions fit better to what each person want's ? I have said this so many times,
YOUNGS LITERAL TRANSLATION… notice the coloured verses which show, that The Father called Jesus His only begotten son, but also can beget anyone.
—————————-
Matthew 1:16
And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was begotten Jesus, who is named Christ.Matthew 1:20
And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, `Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten [is] of the Holy Spirit,Luke 1:35
And the messenger answering said to her, `The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;Luke 9:38
And lo, a man from the multitude cried out, saying, `Teacher, I beseech thee, look upon my son, because he is my only begotten;John 1:12-14
But as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name,
who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten.And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18
God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father — he did declare.John 3:16
For God did so love the world, that His Son — the only begotten — He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.John 3:18
He who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.Acts 13:33
God hath in full completed this to us their children, having raised up Jesus, as also in the second Psalm it hath been written, My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee.Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'Hebrews 5:5
So also the Christ did not glorify himself to become chief priest, but He who spake unto him: `My Son thou art, I to-day have begotten thee;'Hebrews 11:12
Wherefore, also from one were begotten — and that of one who had become dead — as the stars of the heaven in multitude, and as sand that [is] by the sea-shore — the innumerable.Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham hath offered up Isaac, being tried, and the only begotten he did offer up who did receive the promises,1 Peter 1:23-24
Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly, being begotten again, not out of seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God — living and remaining — to the age;1 John 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, know ye that every one doing the righteousness, of him hath been begotten.1 John 3:9
Every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.1 John 4:7
Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God;1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God in us, because His Son — the only begotten — hath God sent to the world, that we may live through him;1 John 5:1
Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:1 John 5:4
Because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world — our faith;1 John 5:18
We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him;Which is from here,
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 26 2010,14:02)
Hi Shimmer,I know what it is like making Jesus to be “God, the Son”. Now it perturbs me that I wasted so much time on a lie.
That may be why it is unsettling that others are trying to bring back the same idea using the “Church Fathers” as an excuse.
It is nice to know that you started this…..but why?
The Professor
David, I never had any problem if people see thing's as a Trinity, I don't understand it but I don't believe anyone can see anything clearly, one day we will.Belief in God to me is more about spiritual thing's,
God to me is spirit, is everywhere, is power and love, to imagine God and Jesus as two God's with bodies like us somehow upsets me ?
It just doesnt feel right.
I started it when WorshippingJesus quoted Ignatius and I requoted it, then Nick said – The Apostasy started early – I put a link to Ignatius and his history, then it carried on.
God began to work with me 5 years ago, I was lost for a while, because of all my searching including the early church fathers, it got too confusing. All I have is faith, I prefer that to knowledge. (Knowledge puffs up, love edifieth)
I was better helping people.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2010,11:25) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 26 2010,10:06) For God so loved the world that he gave his only son so all who believe will not perish but will have eternal life,
Hi Shimmer,John 3:16 (New International Version)
16″For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
In what way do you think God “gave” His Son? What does that mean in your head? I'm just curious.
mike
Hi Mike.I have never analysed this verse, it means just what it say's,
God so loved the world
That he gave his only son
That whoever believes
Will not perish
But shall have eternal life
It shows God's love for the world,
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 26 2010,04:38) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 26 2010,14:02)
Hi Shimmer,I know what it is like making Jesus to be “God, the Son”. Now it perturbs me that I wasted so much time on a lie.
That may be why it is unsettling that others are trying to bring back the same idea using the “Church Fathers” as an excuse.
It is nice to know that you started this…..but why?
The Professor
David, I never had any problem if people see thing's as a Trinity, I don't understand it but I don't believe anyone can see anything clearly, one day we will.Belief in God to me is more about spiritual thing's,
God to me is spirit, is everywhere, is power and love, to imagine God and Jesus as two God's with bodies like us somehow upsets me ?
It just doesnt feel right.
I started it when WorshippingJesus quoted Ignatius and I requoted it, then Nick said – The Apostasy started early – I put a link to Ignatius and his history, then it carried on.
God began to work with me 5 years ago, I was lost for a while, because of all my searching including the early church fathers, it got too confusing. All I have is faith, I prefer that to knowledge. (Knowledge puffs up, love edifieth)
I was better helping people.
Good post Shimmer.
WJ
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 26 2010,04:00) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 24 2010,13:52) There is ONE verse in the Bible (NASB) that says “begotten God”: Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only “begotten (of) God” who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
I tried to explain that the word “of” is not used in Greek and was not inserted by translators in English in this verse….see (of) where I inserted it for comparison.
Now remove (of) how does the verse read to you?
Does it make Jesus, the begotten, “God” or does it make you think that Jesus is begotten, “God-natured”?
There is not a right or wrong answer.
Inquiring minds want to see how you “feel” about the two ways this verse could be written and interpreted.
The Professor
Hi David,
WHY DOES NO-ONE LISTEN ? lol
Every Bible translation is quoted in this thread (and all the others) EXCEPT the one which is a WORD FOR WORD translation, Youngs Literal,
We have the NET, NIV, NASB, NLT, MSG, BBE, NRSV, NKJV ….WHY is the YLT ignored ? Perhaps because the modern versions fit better to what each person want's ? I have said this so many times,
YOUNGS LITERAL TRANSLATION… notice the coloured verses which show, that The Father called Jesus His only begotten son, but also can beget anyone.
—————————-
Matthew 1:16
And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was begotten Jesus, who is named Christ.Matthew 1:20
And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, `Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten [is] of the Holy Spirit,Luke 1:35
And the messenger answering said to her, `The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;Luke 9:38
And lo, a man from the multitude cried out, saying, `Teacher, I beseech thee, look upon my son, because he is my only begotten;John 1:12-14
But as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name,
who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten.And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18
God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father — he did declare.John 3:16
For God did so love the world, that His Son — the only begotten — He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.John 3:18
He who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.Acts 13:33
God hath in full completed this to us their children, having raised up Jesus, as also in the second Psalm it hath been written, My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee.Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'Hebrews 5:5
So also the Christ did not glorify himself to become chief priest, but He who spake unto him: `My Son thou art, I to-day have begotten thee;'Hebrews 11:12
Wherefore, also from one were begotten — and that of one who had become dead — as the stars of the heaven in multitude, and as sand that [is] by the sea-shore — the innumerable.Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham hath offered up Isaac, being tried, and the only begotten he did offer up who did receive the promises,1 Peter 1:23-24
Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly, being begotten again, not out of seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God — living and remaining — to the age;1 John 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, know ye that every one doing the righteousness, of him hath been begotten.1 John 3:9
Every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.1 John 4:7
Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God;1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God in us, because His Son — the only begotten — hath God sent to the world, that we may live through him;1 John 5:1
Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:1 John 5:4
Because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world — our faith;1 John 5:18
We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him;
Shimmer,
Good verses. Who will believe is right! The question that each should ask the Father is when was the very first begetting? Was it before the ages as the early church fathers teach or was the first begetting that which produced a man in Mary, or was the first begetting after Jesus died?Did the first begetting produce a flesh creature or one like the Father? God of God? or less than God of God?
Btw, who said anything about God having a body like us? We are flesh, He is not, neither is His Son flesh. His Son became flesh though.
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 26 2010,20:00) Luke 1:35
And the messenger answering said to her, `The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;Notice……….Preexistence Notice……the Holy Begotten (THING) not a Morphed preexisting (BEING) BUT A (THING) and also the word (SHALL) a future tense word, not that He already existed as a son of God in any form.
Luke 9:38
And lo, a man from the multitude cried out, saying, `Teacher, I beseech thee, look upon my son, because he is my only begotten;ONLY BEGOTTEN SIMPLY IMPLIES A POSITION, THE MAN WAS SAYING HE HAD NO OTHER CHILDREN. A unique Position, And Jesus was the ONLY Begotten from the dead. That is also a (UNIQUE) Position but that is a temporal position because many shall also be begotten from the dead also.
John 1:12-14
But as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name,
who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten.This show GOD also begets others so Jesus can not be the (ONLY) but a begotten SON as these scriptures show, So then we must conclude that Jesus was a (UNIQUELY) begotten son , His was the first born of Man to enter the Kingdom of GOD from among the Human race. He was also the First begotten from the dead. None of these verses supporta preexistence Jesus.
Acts 13:33
God hath in full completed this to us their children, having raised up Jesus, as also in the second Psalm it hath been written, My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee.Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'This day not some distant Past before anything was ever created, but as it says (THIS DAY).
To all………………read the abovepeace and love………………………gene
TO All……… I added to Shimmers Post She did not post all of it so don't jump on her.
peace and love………………………gene
Shimmer,
You make a good observation here:Quote OUNGS LITERAL TRANSLATION… notice the coloured verses which show, that The Father called Jesus His only begotten son, but also can beget anyone. The difference of being the ONLY begotten Son compared to one of many begotten sons is HUGE! One (the only begotten Son) has always carried the exact representation of the nature of God, the others will someday partake of the nature of God and come into sonship THROUGH the ONE and ONLY Begotten Son. In other words, only one is a true offspring of God and all the others are truly adopted offspring of God. No one can become a son of God apart from the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD…the God OF God…begotten, not made (created).
LU…………Look up the word (ONLY) and you will find it can just as easily mean (UNIQUELY) Check it out.
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,01:06) Professor,
Whether you are impressed or not is certainly not why I posted Irenaeus writings. As I read through the early church fathers' writings, I can see why you are so opposed to them since they do not claim that the Holy Spirit is the female person of God and mother of the only begotten Son. I am not putting these up for your response. They interest me…I am intrigued as to their perspective and how they deal with the verses that are wrestled with here. These perspectives are part of the history of the church and learning history is a good thing. Your opinion does not make history something it was not. I get a lot more from reading the early church fathers' writings than most of the posts on HN and so I like to put them up and maybe someone else will also benefit. If you don't like that, fine, you don't have to read them…ok!
LU,You are right, you and the others can adopt the Church fathers, I'll keep my Father and be adopted by Him.
As I said to another, it is two months and have you ever looked up the one verse Gen 1:2 and researched just one word, Spirit?
What does it say?
Everyone does word debates to prove their point. Why not look this one up to stop my nonsense?
Or has everyone looked it up and found that I am telling the truth…..Spirit = noun, feminine?
And if they have looked it up and puposefully omit it what does that tell you?
Also, concerning the fathers, I can't address them or dialog with them. Posting page(s) of their translated writings would be like someone posting the Koran. Why not just make and defend your own thoughts.
The Professor
Here is Youngs John 1:18:
God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father — he did declare.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 26 2010,10:49) LU…………Look up the word (ONLY) and you will find it can just as easily mean (UNIQUELY) Check it out. peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Hi Gene,
He is the unique begotten God and unique begotten Son. I would certainly agree that He is unique since no others were begotten as He was. He wouldn't be uniquely begotten of others were begotten like He was. I'm not sure of your point, Gene.Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 26 2010,12:05) Here is Youngs John 1:18: God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father — he did declare.
Hi Prof,
You are taking that condescending tone…why is that? Do you think that the early church fathers were not trusting in Jesus' heavenly Father? It is obvious that they were embracing the gospel of Christ which makes no mention of your Holy Spirit Mother, not even 1 verse.Do you think that Gen 1:2 should say that the female essence of God moved over the surface of the earth?
Here are the definitions of ruwach:
Pronunciation:roo'-akh
Origin:from 07306
Reference:TWOT – 2131a
PrtSpch:noun feminime
In Hebrew:xwr 205, xwrw 37, yxwr 29, xwrh 19, wxwr 15, xwrb 10, twxwr 9, xwrl 7, wxwrb 5, xwrbw 4, Kxwr 4, Kxwrb 4, Mxwr 3, xwrk 3, wxwrw 3, Mkxwr 3, txwrh 2, Mkxwrb 2, xwrlw 2, xwrmw 1, Kxwrm 1, twxrh 1, wxwrl 1, hxwr 1, xwrhw 1, yxwrw 1, yxwrb 1, Kxwrw 1, xwrm 1, twxr 1
In NET:wind 91, spirit 91, Spirit 34, breath 30, winds 11, mind 6, temper 5, spirits 4, side 4, strength 4, life 4, windstorm 3, breathe 3, sides 3, feelings 3, patience 2, humiliated 2, blast 2, life's breath 2, whirlwind 2, discouragement 2, wind-driven 2, discouraged 1, discernment 1, impatient 1, desire 1, everyone 1, encouraged 1, blustery 1, anxiety 1, attitude 1, anger 1, amazed 1, air 1, battle cry 1, inspired 1, conscience 1, breezy 1, breathes 1, breath of air 1, depression 1, morally 1, rage 1, restored 1, pride 1, presence 1, plan 1, stress 1, strong urge 1, windblown 1, windbag 1, thoughts 1, substance 1, place 1, peace 1, windy 1, motives 1, minds 1, mere word 1, me 1, mouth 1, moved 1, panic 1, one 1, obstinate 1, nothing 1, it 1
In AV:Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4, vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, misc 6
Count:378
Definition:1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1b1) of heaven
1b2) quarter (of wind), side
1b3) breath of air
1b4) air, gas
1b5) vain, empty thing
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable
impulse
1c7) prophetic spirit
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at
death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character
1g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit,
coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
1g4) as endowing men with various gifts
1g5) as energy of life
1g6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
1g7) never referred to as a depersonalised forceNever once do we see 'the female essence of God' nor do we see 'mother'. The Spirit of God is not God in the fullest sense but as 'of' God, the Spirit acts by the will of the Father and reveals the mind of the Father and allows God to be personal with us.
Regarding John 1:18 the Greek has theos in the original, not huios but some translations have chosen the misprint. This is not unusual, unfortunately. Just a few verses earlier, the word is called theos too. That theos became flesh.
Prof,
Also, you asked why I do not post my own thoughts. You can go back to review my posts since February 2008 and see that I have only posted the church father's thoughts since this summer, about when you came here. I have already posted my thoughts, with scripture a number of times and now I am adding the perspective of other brothers in Christ that lived when the church was very young and influenced more directly by the writers of the NT. I find their perspective interesting and also the words they have chosen, like 'begotten before the ages' and calling the Son the' God of God,' for instance.I have wondered what the conversation was like on the road to Emmaus…ya know, when the resurrected Jesus was walking with two of His followers on the day that He rose from the dead. They did not recognize Him till the end of their time with Him late that afternoon. While they were walking with Him, Jesus spoke of what Moses and the prophets spoke about Him. Their conversation was not recorded in the Bible as to what Jesus said about that. You have to figure that those two men told others though and I believe those others told others also. The early church fathers seemed confident that the Son of God was talking to Abraham in the account of the Lord that was talking to Abraham, appearing as a man, sent fire and brimstone to Sodom and Gomorrah from the Lord in heaven. Both were referred to as Yahweh.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2010,03:29) Shimmer,
Good verses. Who will believe is right! The question that each should ask the Father is when was the very first begetting? Was it before the ages as the early church fathers teach or was the first begetting that which produced a man in Mary, or was the first begetting after Jesus died?Did the first begetting produce a flesh creature or one like the Father? God of God? or less than God of God?
Btw, who said anything about God having a body like us? We are flesh, He is not, neither is His Son flesh. His Son became flesh though.
Hi Kathi,All I know is that one came down from heaven, of all the men who walked the earth, only one was more powerful than all us, what he spoke had an influence right up till today all over the world.
What he was before then I have no idea. Whats important is does he live in us today ?
He was risen from the dead exalted to a position of power and authority and it is him who will return as the scriptures say. Sometimes it's hard to believe when time goes on and nothing happens but the day will come,
While we are here, we need to do the best we can, not to deny the power we can have which is in scripture. Especially in these days when the threat of war etc is always there.
It's 1am, I hope this makes sense, lol.
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