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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2011,17:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 20 2011,01:42) So, God spoke through the Son in the OT but didn't identify Him as the Son till the proper time…the NT. He identified Him as the 'Word of God.' God spoke through the 'Word of God' (the Son) to the prophets who then passed on that message to the people.
Give that girl a gold star!
ONE person, known as “God”, sometimes spoke THROUGH a DIFFERENT person, known as the “Word/Spokesman/Son” OF God.
But the “God” remains the same in both cases, Kathi. If it was God the Father who spoke through His Son in recent times, then it was also God the Father doing the speaking in the days of old. Because Hebrews 1 doesn't allow for different Gods. Instead, it tells us that THE God who spoke through Jesus was THE God who ALSO spoke through prophets in the past.
And I can go along with Jesus being the “word/angel/messenger” that God SOMETIMES spoke THROUGH.
Just as long as you realize that this eliminates Jesus from BEING the God who was doing the speaking THROUGH various messengers – only ONE of whom was Jesus.
Now you can read the OT with confidence, Kathi, knowing that any time it says “YHWH said this” or “YHWH said that”, it was God the Father doing the speaking, often THROUGH an agent such as Jesus.
Are we in agreement? If not, then why?
Mike,
I think that both Jehovah the Father and Jehovah the Son spoke through the prophets. Sometimes it was Jehovah the Son speaking as a messenger for the Father and sometimes as Himself as Jehovah the Son.Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2011,17:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 20 2011,01:53) Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is God, the most high Father. They believe that Jesus is God, the Most High Son.
How many Most High Gods do the Trinitarians believe we have, Kathi?
The trinitarians believe this:Anathasian Creed:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one does keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensible, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2011,00:10) Mike,
I think that both Jehovah the Father and Jehovah the Son spoke through the prophets. Sometimes it was Jehovah the Son speaking as a messenger for the Father and sometimes as Himself as Jehovah the Son.
What you think is disproved by Hebrews 1:1, Kathi.Whichever “God” spoke through Jesus is the SAME “God” who spoke through the prophets. That is what the scripture says.
It also says that this God has only spoken to us through His Son in “these last days”. That seems to suggest that Jesus wasn't spoken through at all before he became flesh.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2011,00:17) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2011,17:58) How many Most High Gods do the Trinitarians believe we have, Kathi?
The trinitarians believe this:And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So, the Trinitarians believe in ONE God Almighty, right? Just as I said.AND, they believe that Jesus IS this Almighty God, right? Just as I said.
AND, they believe that Jesus is the SON OF God Almighty, right? Just as I said.
Therefore, they confusingly and nonsensically believe that Jesus IS the Almighty God that he is the SON OF, right? Just as I said.
Kathi, follow along very closely here:
Trinitarians believe we have but ONE Almighty God. They believe Jesus is both the SON OF God Almighty…………AND God Almighty Himself. Therefore, there is no two ways about it – they actually believe that Jesus is the God he is the Son OF.
And it is as silly for you to try and defend this nonsense as it is for them to believe it in the first place.
Quote (jammin @ Dec. 21 2011,14:29) who is christ for you terrarica? is he a man or GOD who took the form of a man?
Philippians 2:11
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.So Jesus is Lord and we say this to the glory of God who is the Father.
Are you ready to confess this now, or are you one who says that he is simply a man or God Almighty?
We believe that there is one God the Father.
Trinitarians believe that there is one God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.Quote (jammin @ Dec. 20 2011,19:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2011,17:03) jammin, how many Gods Most High do we have?
i answered your question already. your question is worng. that is my answer.
Okay jammin.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father……..
jammin, how many Gods Most High do the SCRIPTURES say we have?Quote (jammin @ Dec. 20 2011,19:13) where is your verse about equally sprit being in phil 2:6?? what translation is that?
Is God a spirit being or not? I need YOUR answer before I can answer your question.Quote (jammin @ Dec. 20 2011,19:13) do you understand why did GOD said ONLY SON in john 3:16 
He didn't. He said “only BEGOTTEN Son”. And did you notice who SENT His only BEGOTTEN Son into the world? It was someone called “God”. jammin, do you suppose that God SENT Himself into the world? One cannot SEND himself. So if “God” was the One doing the sending, then it is impossible that “God” is the one who was sent. Like you said, this is elementary stuff.Quote (jammin @ Dec. 20 2011,19:13) you are not yet giving me a verse, person in the old testament claiming to be the son of GOD just like christ.
There is no one in existence who is the son of God “just like christ”. God has many sons, and Jesus is His Son in a very unique way. But Son OF God still means Son OF God, not God Himself. Again, this is elementary stuff.i believe that they have one nature and that is GOD.
i believe that you (t8) and me have one nature and that is man GOD is nature. this is very easy to understand.
Philippians 2:6GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
6Although he was in the form of God and equal with God,
he did not take advantage of this equality.Philippians 2:6
New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
6 In his very nature he was God.
But he did not think that being equal with God was something he should hold on to.Philippians 2:6
Good News Translation (GNT)
6 He always had the nature of God,
but he did not think that by force he should try to remain[a] equal with God.:D Quote (jammin @ Dec. 21 2011,19:02) 6 In his very nature he was God.
But he did not think that being equal with God was something he should hold on to.
If he WAS “God”, then how could he be EQUAL TO “God”?
Elementary stuff, jammin.Also, can “God” ever STOP BEING “God”?
that's what the apostle said. equal with GOD.
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)6Although he was in the form of God and equal with God,
he did not take advantage of this equality. mike:
Is God a spirit being or not? I need YOUR answer before I can answer your question.me: you are just making excuses. the truth is you cant read it in phil 2:6
you are ALWAYS MAKING CONCLUSIONS
Quote (jammin @ Dec. 21 2011,21:29) who is christ for you terrarica? is he a man or GOD who took the form of a man?
jammiChrist says ;he is the only one that came down from heaven ,
did he lied ??Christ says that he was send down by his father did he lied ??
Christ said that he going back from were he came from ,heaven;did he lied ?
Christ says that he recieved all his power from his father ;did he lied ?
Paul one of Christ apostles says that Christ HIS the first of God creation ;did he lied ?
the OT says that the first of God s creation was the one where all things were create after or by it ;are the scriptures lying ?
John 1;1 says the the word was with God and in revelation 19 it says that the son = Christ and that his name is THE WORD OF GOD ; is that a lie ?
please answer me ;I ate to believe in lies
Pierre
Quote (jammin @ Dec. 21 2011,19:18) that's what the apostle said. equal with GOD.
Okay, let's say your flawed translation was correct.How do you answer to the LOGIC that one cannot be EQUAL TO himself?
If one is EQUAL TO God, then that one is NOT God Himself. Agreed?
before you ask a question, read the verse carefully.
the question here is in what sense they are equal.
the answer is in the nature of GOD.
i already told you about this. elementary stuff again.
you and me are equal. in what sense? in the nature of man. you know what is the nature of man??
and it's not a flawed translation. that's what paul said.Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 22 2011,12:30) Quote (jammin @ Dec. 21 2011,21:29) who is christ for you terrarica? is he a man or GOD who took the form of a man?
jammiChrist says ;he is the only one that came down from heaven ,
did he lied ??Christ says that he was send down by his father did he lied ??
Christ said that he going back from were he came from ,heaven;did he lied ?
Christ says that he recieved all his power from his father ;did he lied ?
Paul one of Christ apostles says that Christ HIS the first of God creation ;did he lied ?
the OT says that the first of God s creation was the one where all things were create after or by it ;are the scriptures lying ?
John 1;1 says the the word was with God and in revelation 19 it says that the son = Christ and that his name is THE WORD OF GOD ; is that a lie ?
please answer me ;I ate to believe in lies
Pierre
no no no no no .. except for col 1:15
what is your interpretation here??? it does not mean that christ is a creature. that's not what the bible says. you cant read that in col 1:15it says the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION. the question here is what is the meaning of col 1:15.
according to its context, christ is not CREATED BY GOD BUT SUPREME TO ALL CREATION. you cant read that christ is created by GOD in col 1:15. the ignorant and weak in faith are giving wrong meanings to the scripturesCHRIST RULES OVER EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN MADE!. AND IT'S ONE OF THE REASON WHY CHRIST IS GOD. HE IS NOT CREATED. HE IS A CREATOR.
Hebrews 1:8-10
New Life Version (NLV)
8 But about His Son, He says, “O God, Your throne will last forever. Whatever You say in Your nation is right and good. 9 You have loved what is right. You have hated what is wrong. That is why God, Your God, has chosen You. He has poured over You the oil of joy more than over anyone else.” 10 He said also, “Lord, You made the earth in the beginning. You made the heavens with Your hands.
now if you believe that christ is a creation according to col 1:15 (if that's what you believe), i tell now, you do not understand what the verse says. read carefully before making conclusions.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2011,19:36) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2011,00:10) Mike,
I think that both Jehovah the Father and Jehovah the Son spoke through the prophets. Sometimes it was Jehovah the Son speaking as a messenger for the Father and sometimes as Himself as Jehovah the Son.
What you think is disproved by Hebrews 1:1, Kathi.Whichever “God” spoke through Jesus is the SAME “God” who spoke through the prophets. That is what the scripture says.
It also says that this God has only spoken to us through His Son in “these last days”. That seems to suggest that Jesus wasn't spoken through at all before he became flesh.
Mike,
you said:Quote What you think is disproved by Hebrews 1:1, Kathi.
How so?Quote It also says that this God has only spoken to us through His Son in “these last days”. 1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
There is no 'only' in this passage.
Quote That seems to suggest that Jesus wasn't spoken through at all before he became flesh. I have shown you a lot of passages that seem to suggest that the Son is the Word of God that did the speaking in the OT to the prophets and also called Yahweh who was speaking although not the same Yahweh that was the Father. He was also seemingly called the Angel of the Lord and as such He did speak in the OT.
I know that you believe that the Son is called the Angel of the Lord and I know that you realize that the Angel of the Lord brought messages from God, so why all of the sudden are you saying that Jesus wasn't spoken through at all before He became flesh?? You have used this whole idea to support your 'Jesus is a created angel' theory. Have you forgotten?
Quote Whichever “God” spoke through Jesus is the SAME “God” who spoke through the prophets. That is what the scripture says. I agree. I just believe that the Son as the begotten God also spoke to the prophets. You have admitted that you believe that the Angel of the Lord is the Son and you have also admitted that you believe the Son is the begotten theos, so now you don't seem to put it all together. If the Angel of the Lord is also the begotten theos and spoke to the prophets then that would make the Son as one of the two theos who spoke to the prophets.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2011,20:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2011,19:36) Whichever “God” spoke through Jesus is the SAME “God” who spoke through the prophets. That is what the scripture says. I agree. I just believe that the Son as the begotten God also spoke to the prophets. You have admitted that you believe that the Angel of the Lord is the Son and you have also admitted that you believe the Son is the begotten theos, so now you don't seem to put it all together. If the Angel of the Lord is also the begotten theos and spoke to the prophets then that would make the Son as one of the two theos who spoke to the prophets.
But it doesn't say “Gods”, it says “God”. It speaks of ONE God who spoke both through the prophets in days past, AND through His Son in recent times.And what I “admitted” about Jesus being one of the “angels of the LORD” who spoke in scripture is that IF one of them WAS truly Jesus, then it would offer even MORE proof that Jesus is not God Himself, but an angel OF God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2011,20:27) I have shown you a lot of passages that seem to suggest that the Son is the Word of God that did the speaking in the OT to the prophets and also called Yahweh who was speaking although not the same Yahweh that was the Father. He was also seemingly called the Angel of the Lord and as such He did speak in the OT.
But notice your words “seem to suggest” and “seemingly called”. Kathi, there is no real evidence that Jesus himself did any speaking. I, like you, assumed that he did some of the speaking for his God, since he is the Word of God after all. But that was BEFORE jammin pointed out the brilliance of Heb 1:1.And you are right that it doesn't say the word “only”. But it also doesn't say “In the past, God spoke to us through various prophets AND THROUGH HIS SON”. “Long ago” seems to be separated FROM “in these last days”, which leads me to believe that “prophets” are separated FROM “His Son”.
Prophets = Long ago
His Son = These last dayspeace,
mikeQuote (jammin @ Dec. 21 2011,19:53) you and me are equal. in what sense? in the nature of man. you know what is the nature of man
Okay, so you and I are equal in nature. What exactly IS the nature we equally partake in? Isn't it the nature of HUMAN BEINGS?And, according to your flawed translation, Jesus was equal in nature to his God, right? And what exactly was the nature THEY equally partook in? Wasn't it the nature of SPIRIT BEINGS?
This is why I wanted you to answer if God was a spirit being or not. Because if God is a spirit being (which He is), then Jesus having the same nature would merely mean that Jesus was also a spirit being.
But just like you and I sharing human nature doesn't make us the same BEING, Jesus and his God sharing spirit nature wouldn't make THEM the same BEING either.
And as far as the word “morphe” meaning “nature”, see how that works in the following scripture:
Mar 16:12
After this he appeared in a different form to two of them while they were on their way to the country.Did Christ take on a completely different NATURE here? Or is it saying that his outward appearance looked different?
mike do you know how to read the bible??? it has different context. mar 16:12 is different to fil 2:6
mar 16:12 saying about the resurrected christ. while phil 2:6 is talking about christ being GOD took the form of a man. see how different it is.the meaning of mark 16:12 is
Mark 16:12New Century Version (NCV)
12 Later, Jesus showed himself to two of his followers while they were walking in the country, but he did not look the same as before.
see, HE DID NOT LOOK THE SAME AS BEFORE! it's the resurrected christ! you cant read in phil 2:6 that paul is talking about the resurrected christ! you are twisting again the word of GOD mike. repent!
ignorant mike
Mike,
Did God speak to His prophets through His angels in the OT? Yes or No.Quote And you are right that it doesn't say the word “only”. But it also doesn't say “In the past, God spoke to us through various prophets AND THROUGH HIS SON”. “Long ago” seems to be separated FROM “in these last days”, which leads me to believe that “prophets” are separated FROM “His Son”. Does Hebrews 1:1 mention the angels? No, but it would allow for it with the words 'in many ways,' right?? So, if that is true, then your argument about Heb 1:1 not mentioning the Son as one of the ways God spoke to the prophets doesn't mean He wasn't one of those who spoke to the prophets.
So back to my question for you to answer:
Did God speak to His prophets through His angels in the OT? Yes or No.Thanks,
Kathi
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