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Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2011,12:46) i agree with you jammin' Jesus is not a created angel…He created the angels.
1. Jesus IS an angel of God, because he is a messenger of God…………..right jammin?2. Jesus WAS created, because Paul says so in Colossians 1:15, and Jesus himself says so in Revelation 3:14.
3. We have A CREATOR, not CreatorS, with an “s”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2011,13:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 09 2011,22:53) Kathi, If Trinitarians believe Jesus is God Most High, then they believe that Jesus is the God he is the Son of.
No, trinitarians believe that God is made of more than one person, one of those persons is the Father and another of those persons is the Son.Kathi
Kathi,1. Do Trinitarians believe that Jesus is God Most High? YES or NO?
2. Do Trinitarians believe that Jesus is the Son of God Most High? YES or NO?
If the answer to both questions is “YES”, (which it is), then Trinitarians believe that Jesus IS the God he is the Son of.
you dont understand again col 1:15
peter is really right.
2 Peter 3:1621st Century King James Version (KJ21)
16as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things. Therein are some things hard to understand, which those who are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.
dont make conclusions. study well the verse. read the whole chapter.
i am waiting mike, where did you find that the son and the father are equally spirit beings according to phil 2:6
? 
what translation is that?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2011,12:04) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2011,12:46) i agree with you jammin' Jesus is not a created angel…He created the angels.
1. Jesus IS an angel of God, because he is a messenger of God…………..right jammin?2. Jesus WAS created, because Paul says so in Colossians 1:15, and Jesus himself says so in Revelation 3:14.
3. We have A CREATOR, not CreatorS, with an “s”.
I can certainly agree that Jesus humanity was created.
But I don't think that any of our spirits are created, rather they are given by God who is uncreated.Thus if Jesus came from God before all creation, then when he was a man is the point he partook of creation.
In scripture, creation is defined as that which was made by God THROUGH Jesus Christ. Thus it would be obvious that Jesus himself was not made through Jesus Christ.
Was not Jesus born/begotten rather than created?
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2011,13:30) Hebrews says that God spoke through the prophets in many ways. That leaves it wide open as to how or who He spoke through to the prophets.
Ah, but it doesn't leave any options as to WHO that God was.
The God who spoke to us through the prophets was the SAME God who spoke to us through His Son Jesus.I'm sure you can't see what you are doing from the inside. But from the outside looking in, it is obvious to us that you went immediately into “spin mode” to try and explain away the clear point of this scripture.
Spin away, sister. We have but ONE God, and He who spoke through the Son is He who spoke through the prophets of old.
Quote (jammin @ Dec. 18 2011,18:26) even the jews did not agree that christ is equal with GOD
What is it with you people? Do you not even hear what your own mouth says, jammin?What does the word “CHRIST” even mean? Can you tell me? How many christs are there in scripture? Any idea?
And how many times must I say it: If one is EQUAL WITH another, then that one cannot possibly BE that other.
It's like you guys just purposely let your God-given common sense fly right out the window in your efforts to make Jesus the God he is the SON OF.
Quote (jammin @ Dec. 18 2011,18:26) for the jews, if you claim that you are the SON of GOD means you are GOD!
John 8:41
“You are doing the things your own father does.” “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”Apparently, the Jews who said this thought they themselves were “GOD”, huh?
the jews are not GOD.. but gods. read it carefully my friend. by the way, do you know any person in the old testament claimed that he is a SON of GOD?
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 18 2011,19:20) I can certainly agree that Jesus humanity was created.
But I don't think that any of our spirits are created, rather they are given by God who is uncreated.
Angels ARE spirits. Are you saying they weren't created?Quote (t8 @ Dec. 18 2011,19:20) Thus if Jesus came from God before all creation, then when he was a man is the point he partook of creation.
And Jesus can't be the firstborn of EVERY creature if he wasn't even a creation until he was a human being. (Col 1) Nor could he have been the BEGINNING of the creation by God. (Rev 3) Nor could he have been created as the FIRST of God's works. (Prov 8)Quote (t8 @ Dec. 18 2011,19:20) Was not Jesus born/begotten rather than created?
I was begotten. Does that exclude me from being a creation of my God?Quote (jammin @ Dec. 18 2011,19:18) i am waiting mike, where did you find that the son and the father are equally spirit beings according to phil 2:6
Is the Father a spirit being, jammin? YES or NO?(Btw, I'm still waiting for YOU to show me a scripture that says the Son is EQUAL WITH the Father. Because even with the comically flawed Message translation you dug up, “equal status” does not mean “total equality”. Joseph was givin equal status to Pharaoh, but that didn't mean he was totally equal to Pharaoh, nor does it mean he WAS Pharaoh. And to completely honest, you are claiming that Jesus IS God, not just “equal TO” God, right?)
Quote (jammin @ Dec. 18 2011,19:39) the jews are not GOD.. but gods.
Good, I'm glad you understand that. Because the scripture you quoted is better translated:
“For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy and because thou, being a man, makest thyself a god.”Quote (jammin @ Dec. 18 2011,19:39) do you know any person in the old testament claimed that he is a SON of GOD
Yes.Do YOU know any scripture where Jesus claimed to BE God?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2011,12:42) Angels ARE spirits. Are you saying they weren't created?
Good point, but my guess is that their spirits we given by God, but that they also possess a spiritual body which is a created body.Yes Christ has a body, but when he was with God as the Word, it is possible that he was like God a spirit and without a body.
Once creation came into existence and the angels with it, Christ may have taken a body for himself in a similar way that he also partook of flesh.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 18 2011,19:54) Yes Christ has a body, but when he was with God as the Word, it is possible that he was like God a spirit and without a body.
And what makes you think God doesn't have a body? Jesus couldn't very well have been existing in the FORM of God if God doesn't HAVE a form, right?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2011,12:42) And Jesus can't be the firstborn of EVERY creature if he wasn't even a creation until he was a human being. (Col 1) Nor could he have been the BEGINNING of the creation by God. (Rev 3) Nor could he have been created as the FIRST of God's works. (Prov 8)
True that. It is more accurate to say that he partook of physical creation. If he had a body in Heaven before that, then he partook of the spiritual too and it does say that he had divine nature or existed in the form of God.It is possible that before all creation, that Jesus was in spirit form like God. And thus no body was needed as a body is created.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2011,12:57) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 18 2011,19:54) Yes Christ has a body, but when he was with God as the Word, it is possible that he was like God a spirit and without a body.
And what makes you think God doesn't have a body? Jesus couldn't very well have been existing in the FORM of God if God doesn't HAVE a form, right?
God is a Spirit and is invisible. His body is likely the creation itself. The idea is that God wants to dwell inside all of creation when it has been redeemed. Thus we who are not eternal like God have a body and God who is eternal lives in creation and even beyond it.do not compare it to joseph bec he is a MAN! paul is not saying the term equal as a MAN! he says the FORM of GOD!
Philippians 2:6Amplified Bible (AMP)
6Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [c]or retained,
did you see any verse saying MAN in phil 2:6
?you ask me, Is the Father a spirit being, jammin? YES or NO?
why are you asking me that question? you are the one who used that term in phil 2:6. so now im finding those words of yours in phil 2:6?? can you find any translation or not???
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2011,12:53) Quote (jammin @ Dec. 18 2011,19:39) the jews are not GOD.. but gods.
Good, I'm glad you understand that. Because the scripture you quoted is better translated:
“For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy and because thou, being a man, makest thyself a god.”Quote (jammin @ Dec. 18 2011,19:39) do you know any person in the old testament claimed that he is a SON of GOD
Yes.Do YOU know any scripture where Jesus claimed to BE God?
give me the verse . a people in the OLD testament claiming he is a SON of GOD. I SAID CLAIMING. saying to himself that HE IS A SON OF GOD. give me the verse in the old testament.again the word is a god (gods) and not GOD. they have huge difference. you like twisting words huh
you and arius have the same belief. a jew claiming in the old testament that he is a SON of GOD?? im so excited that mike will give me a verse in the old testament.
the term only in john 3:16 means no other than christ.
John 3:16Today's New International Version (TNIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
make sure mike that you will give a verse in the old testament a jew claiming to be a SON of GOD same as christ!
bec we are also sons/children of God, BUT NOT LIKE CHRIST. john 1
12 Some, however, did receive him and believed in him; so he gave them the right to become God's children.bec we recieve and believed in him, GOD gave us the right to be his children.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 18 2011,19:59) God is a Spirit and is invisible.
Angels are also spirit and invisible to us. This topic is better suited to the “Do spirits have bodies” thread.
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