Before Abraham was, I am.

[jammin]

sorry for the late reply.
Christ is the son of GOD and not the father . john 3:16. GOD sent his son. you cant send yourself. unless someone is having a mind problem and sending himself.

you said the word angel. not all angels in the bible are literally created by GOD. the meaning of angel is “messenger; messenger of God”.
it is very clear in the verses that the angel (messenger) of GOD is GOD himself. that's why christ's name is the WORD of GOD in john 1:1. apoc 19:13.

manoah is not joking when he said they saw GOD. they knew that the angel of the LORD is GOD. why did he say GOD in verse 22 if he really saw an angel? the angel in verse 22 is not literally the created angel. but the meaning is messenger. also in exodus 3:3-6

Judges 13:21-22

Common English Bible (CEB)

21 The LORD’s messenger didn’t reappear to Manoah or his wife, and Manoah then realized that it had been the LORD’s messenger. 22 Manoah said to his wife, “We are certainly going to die, because we’ve seen God!”

you also said,
God Himself told Moses, “No man can see my face and live”.

jacob saw GOD face to face – gen 32:30 but he lived

my answer is this, it is true that a man will die if he saw GOD's face BUT it's by the will of GOD! if GOD does not want to take your life then you will live!

judges 13:23
Judges 13:23

Common English Bible (CEB)

23 But his wife replied to him, “If the LORD wanted to kill us, he wouldn’t have accepted the entirely burned offering and grain offering from our hands. He wouldn’t have shown us all these things or told us all of this now.”

[jammin]

i cant edit my post. that answer is for mikeboll64

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 16 2011,19:41)

Christ is the son of GOD and not the father . john 3:16. GOD sent his son. you cant send yourself.

I agree 100% with the above, for it is simply common sense.

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 16 2011,19:41)

it is very clear in the verses that the angel (messenger) of GOD is GOD himself.

This part, not so much.  Why would God Himself ever be called “a messenger OF God”?  

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 16 2011,19:41)

jacob saw GOD face to face – gen 32:30 but he lived

Genesis 32 is has some odd wording, to be sure.  But the one Jacob wrestled with was call a “man” three times, and God is not man. (Numbers 23:19)

I personally can only conclude that, like Manoah and Moses, Jacob witnessed an angel OF God, and called that angel “God”.  It isn't specifically spelled out for us in Gen 32, but based on Manoah's and Moses' stories, combined with God's own words that no man can see His face and live, that is the only conclusion I'm left with.

peace to you,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Devolution @ Dec. 16 2011,06:54)

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own LIKENESS, and after his IMAGE, and called his name Seth. Guess Seth is really Adam reborn huh!!

Hi Devo,

That is a new one to me, so THANKS! It will come in handy if any of the Trinitarians we've scared off this site ever come back.

I always tell them that if Jesus is the IMAGE OF God, then he can't possibly BE the God he is the IMAGE OF. But your point drives it home and leaves no “wiggle room”.

peace,
mike

[jammin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2011,13:40)

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 16 2011,19:41) Christ is the son of GOD and not the father . john 3:16. GOD sent his son. you cant send yourself. I agree 100% with the above, for it is simply common sense. Quote (jammin @ Dec. 16 2011,19:41) it is very clear in the verses that the angel (messenger) of GOD is GOD himself. This part, not so much.  Why would God Himself ever be called “a messenger OF God”?   Quote (jammin @ Dec. 16 2011,19:41) jacob saw GOD face to face – gen 32:30 but he lived Genesis 32 is has some odd wording, to be sure.  But the one Jacob wrestled with was call a “man” three times, and God is not man. (Numbers 23:19) I personally can only conclude that, like Manoah and Moses, Jacob witnessed an angel OF God, and called that angel “God”.  It isn't specifically spelled out for us in Gen 32, but based on Manoah's and Moses' stories, combined with God's own words that no man can see His face and live, that is the only conclusion I'm left with. peace to you, mike

mike: This part, not so much. Why would God Himself ever be called “a messenger OF God”? ??

christ called the messenger of GOD (john 17:3). do you believe that christ is not also GOD? of course he is GOD. it does not matter if GOD called a messenger of GOD. this only tells us that the SON and the father is not the same person. the angel of the LORD is GOD, not the father but christ.

if GOD's will, a man can see GOD face to face. judges 13:23

[jammin]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 16 2011,19:41)
Christ is the son of GOD and not the father . john 3:16. GOD sent his son. you cant send yourself.

mike: I agree 100% with the above, for it is simply common sense.

me: another point, you agree that you cant send yourself. so how come that the father is also the son?? the father sent his son.
it is very clear. crystal clear. the father is not the son. the son is not the father.
there is no verse in the bible that GOD sent himself.

[jammin]

CHRIST IS GOD BUT NOT GOD THE FATHER. they have the same nature. phil 2:6

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2011,05:10)

jammin,Dec. wrote: if GOD in heb 1:1 is the John 1:18 actually says, “No one has ever seen God, but the only begotten god, who is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.”

Hi Mike,

Sorry, but the Greek actually does NOT say this.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Ed,

Check here.

Or the Greek transliteration on this page.

Also, read footnote #1 in NETBible's translation on the last link.

[jammin]

mike
are you using a new world translation?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,00:24)

christ called the messenger of GOD (john 17:3).

Exactly.  In fact, Christ is the main spokesman for God, which is why he alone has the title “The Word of God”.

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,00:24)

do you believe that christ is not also GOD?

Absolutely not.  I am a part of the “US” in the following verse:
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live;

For ME, there is but ONE God, the Father.

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,00:24)

the angel of the LORD is GOD,

Which one?  All of them?  God has myriads upon myriads of angels.  Are they ALL “God Himself”?

Jammin, just read the words and understand them as they are written.  “Angel OF God” does not equal “God Himself” anymore than “Secretary OF the President” equals “The President himself”.

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2011,00:47)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 17 2011,21:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2011,05:10) John 1:18 actually says, “No one has ever seen God, but the only begotten god, who is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” Hi Mike, Sorry, but the Greek actually does NOT say this. God bless Ed J Ed, Check here. Or the Greek transliteration on this page. Also, read footnote #1 in NETBible's translation on the last link.

Hi Mike, here is the Greek text to which you mention (notice how “Theov” is ONLY mentioned once, NOT TWICE?)…

John 1:18: θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε ὁ μονογενὴς υἱὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρός, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο

Here is how the AKJV Bible translates John 1:18….
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

And here is how Google tries to translate it…
God no one eoraken popote son of the only begotten Son in the bosom of the Father, he exigisato

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[jammin]

here is the greek of john 1:18
qeon oudeiv ewraken pwpote; monogenhv qeov o wn eiv ton kolpon tou patrov ekeinov echghsato.

θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε: μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.

[Ed J]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 18 2011,00:56)

mike are you using a new world translation?

Hi Jammin,

He does.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,07:56)

mike are you using a new world translation?

I quote many translations. I did quote the NWT's version of John 1:18, because most of the Trinitarian biased translations have changed the Greek word “monogenes”, which truly means “only begotten”, to “God the one and only”, which is absurd. How could “God the ONE AND ONLY” be in the bosom of “God”?

On my last post, I used the NIV to quote 1 Corinthians for you.

Jammin, click on the first link I posted for Ed. You'll see the Greek words used, and their meanings. Then you'll know that the NWT got this one right.

[mikeboll64]

Ed, look at the difference between the Greek you posted and the Greek jammin posted. Do you see that in jammin's post, “theos” is there TWICE?

If you will read footnote 1 in NETNotes like I suggested, you will have a better understanding as to why some Greek mss have “son”, and others have “god”. You can also read their reasons for feeling “god” is the correct translation.

You don't have to agree with them, but at least we'd be discussing this from an even playing field.

[jammin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2011,01:06)

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,00:24) christ called the messenger of GOD (john 17:3). Exactly.  In fact, Christ is the main spokesman for God, which is why he alone has the title “The Word of God”. Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,00:24) do you believe that christ is not also GOD? Absolutely not.  I am a part of the “US” in the following verse: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; For ME, there is but ONE God, the Father. Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,00:24) the angel of the LORD is GOD, Which one?  All of them?  God has myriads upon myriads of angels.  Are they ALL “God Himself”? Jammin, just read the words and understand them as they are written.  “Angel OF God” does not equal “God Himself” anymore than “Secretary OF the President” equals “The President himself”.

i did not say ANGELS of the LORD. read carefully mike.
i said angel of the LORD
the one who spoke to moses manoah etc.

GOD?? how do you understand the term GOD in the bible??? if i read a verse saying that christ is GOD (word for word), you will accept that you do not know what you are saying?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 17 2011,03:40)

CHRIST IS GOD BUT NOT GOD THE FATHER. they have the same nature. phil 2:6

Phil 2 tells us that Christ was existing in the “form” of God before emptying himself. The Greek word translated as “form” in most Bibles means:

morphe
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision 2) external appearance

If Jesus had a similar form as God had, then Jesus was not God Himself. You can't say, “Ed looks exactly LIKE Mike”, and expect Ed and Mike to BE the same being.

So if Jesus looked LIKE God, then Jesus couldn't have BEEN God.

[jammin]

by the way, who is christ to you??? when did he exist??

what's the use of greek translation IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT?? many preachers use greek but yet they do not understand the context of the bible. read the bible by it's context. do not skip and make conclusions
no matter what language you use . you can use aramaic hebrew greek chinese hindu english etc. any language you want but the question is DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE READING???

[jammin]

they have the same form according to phil 2:6
dont you understand the verse. word for word
Philippians 2:6
the greek word word morphe also means nature.

King James Version (KJV)

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

he is equal with GOD. dont you see and understand the verse? if you dont agree that christ is equal with GOD then you are preaching a different christ gal 1:6-9

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