Before Abraham was, I am.

Blocked

Quote (Devolution @ Dec. 11 2011,02:12)

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 11 2011,12:28)

who is this GOD that spoke to the prophets long ago
Hebrews 1:1-2

Hi Jammin,

It was the Father.

I am not sure where your question is going here…

I believe Jammin is making the same point you are, Devo.

The God who spoke to the Israelites through many different prophets is the same exact God who spoke to us through His prophet Jesus Christ.

I love that, Jammin! Kathi believes that “YHWH” encompasses both the Father and the Son in a “Unity Godhead”. She has claimed that many times in the OT, it was the Son as “YHWH” doing the speaking, and other times it was the Father as “YHWH”. Trinitarians also assert that “YHWH” in the OT could be referring either to “YHWH the Father” OR “YHWH the Son”.

In your very first post here, you have completely ruined them! Because the YHWH who lately spoke THROUGH His Son is the SAME YHWH who previously spoke through many prophets in the past. And if Jesus is just the latest of the prophets THROUGH WHOM YHWH spoke, then he can't possibly BE the YHWH who spoke through the other prophets. Because Heb 1 makes it clear that it was the SAME YHWH who spoke through the prophets of old………….AND through Jesus.

Kathi, do you hear that? Unless Jesus was part of a unity that spoke through HIMSELF in these last days, then Jesus was also not part of a unity that spoke through the prophets of old.

Great point, Jammin! And welcome.

December 11, 2011 at 11:39 pm#267515

Participant

God spoke through his prophets and now his son.
Yes that is right. It doesn't say that God spoke through the prophets and then himself.

God doesn't speak through himself, but as himself or through others.

December 12, 2011 at 1:32 am#267528

Participant

thank you for the welcome. i posted heb 1:1 to get your opinion about the GOD who spoke to the prophets.
some of you said it was the father.
according to heb1:1 the GOD spoke to the prophets.. it's singular. why did i say that? bec if we continue the reading it says, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son,
it means that the GOD who spoke to the prophets is the same GOD who spoke through his SON.

the father is not the son. the son is not the father. . it is clear that GOD spoke long ago to the prohets and in last days, thru his son.

if GOD in heb 1:1 is the father
why did christ say
John 1:18
New International Version (NIV)
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

no one has ever seen GOD. it is the father that jesus is telling. but in the old testament, GOD has seen many times even face to face.
so how come that the GOD of israel is the father? is jesus lying when he said no one has ever seen GOD??
any comments??

December 12, 2011 at 1:38 am#267529

Participant

let me post it again heb 1:1
Hebrews 1:1
New International Version (NIV)
Hebrews 1

God’s Final Word: His Son

1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,

bible says, during the old times, GOD spoke in many ways. in many ways. in many ways.

December 12, 2011 at 1:48 am#267530

Participant

Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the fullness of the deity in bodily form.

This means that the invisible eternal spirit the Father who is above all cannot be seen.
We can see his glory however, and Jesus is the fullest expression of his glory.

When men saw God face to face, they saw the messenger of YHWH.
For example when you read about Moses seeing GOd, it was the angel that he saw and the New Testament confirms this.

Is that not how we see the invisible God ourselves?

We can also see God by looking at the things he has made.
The heavens declare his glory.

December 12, 2011 at 3:40 am#267532

Participant

t8 said:Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the fullness of the deity in bodily form.

This means that the invisible eternal spirit the Father who is above all cannot be seen.

me: i think this is vague. pls explain this again. jesus is the image of the invisible GOD. this is clear in john 1:18. no one has ever seen the father but christ. that is why he is called the image of the invisible GOD. many verses telling that GOD has seen by people in OT. the bible says invisible GOD. therefore OT GOD who appreared to moses, jacob etc. is not the father. they saw GOD in OT. it cant be the father.

t8 said: When men saw God face to face, they saw the messenger of YHWH.
what do you mean??? does it mean no verses in the bible that GOD has seen by people in the old testament?? there are a lot of verses that GOD has seen by his people.

that messenger of the LORD is GOD himself. noticed that christ called the WORD of GOD in john 1:1
angel means messenger. but not all angels in the OT refers to GOD.christ is a messenger of GOD john 17:3

December 12, 2011 at 4:12 am#267533

Participant

also john 14:9
John 14:9
New International Version (NIV)
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

that's why jesus called the image of the invisible GOD

December 12, 2011 at 6:22 am#267539

seekingtruth

Participant

Welcome jammin,
In my opinion it was the corporeal manifestation of the Father that interfaced with man.

I believe scripture teaches that the Father exists outside/above all of His creation(s) yet His awareness of all living things somehow permeates both heaven and earth. He is so far beyond His creation(s), that He interacts vicariously through His “agents” (The Son and the Holy Spirit), that is why Jesus came explaining the Father.

I believe the “pre-incarnate Jesus” was manifested as the foundations of our reality were laid, the essence of the Father manifested as an extension into this new reality. Containing everything our finite reality could possibly support of the eternal infinite Father. Now this manifestation was the pre-incarnate Jesus (“God manifest in the flesh”) having a separate identity but “the exact representation of his being”, manifested at the birth of our reality, He was 'supreme over all creation' and “existed in the form of God”, and it was by this manifestation that 'the world was made through him'.

Just to be clear, God is a title to an “office”, not a name. There is only one true “God”; the Father is the source of/for everything. The Father is the personage of God while the Son as His “agent” (Lord of Heaven and Earth) is within the office of “God”. The Father is far greater then all including the Son. The Son is the image of the Father and contains the nature of the Father (all that can be perceived of the Father by those of us in this reality) and is God’s representative and is in all ways “God” to us while acknowledging the Father as His God.

This essence of the Father’s corporeal manifestation was emptied of all but the nature of God and impregnated into Mary in a manner that she remained a virgin. This image of the Father was born into a child, not having a sin nature, but fully human.

My opinion – Wm

December 12, 2011 at 9:07 am#267548

Participant

then who is that GOD that appreared to moses ang other prophets?

December 12, 2011 at 10:51 am#267551

terraricca

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 12 2011,23:22)

Welcome jammin,
In my opinion it was the corporeal manifestation of the Father that interfaced with man.

My opinion – Wm

God may be a tittle but in that title we recognize a being ,a spiritual being who his above all creation because it is his creation ,and I do not have found a scripture to see that he separate himself to become an essence of a kind,

when we as Christians address God it is not the title that we address or is it ?? not me ,it is the being my creator.

God created all things out side of himself this does not take a big brain ;nothing what has been created can hurt ,or though God ,he is above all of it ,and he also created millions of angels ,so the canal and visible world came last ,

God never literally walk on the earth,he say that the earth is his foot step ,did you try to walk on a foot step,yea to small ,right .

Pierre

December 12, 2011 at 10:55 am#267552

Participant

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 12 2011,13:40)

t8 said:Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the fullness of the deity in bodily form.

This means that the invisible eternal spirit the Father who is above all cannot be seen.

1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
No one has ever seen God; ….

1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.

1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Exodus 3:1-14
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God…

Now look at Acts 7:30 as confirmation of who Moses actually saw with his eyes:
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.

December 12, 2011 at 10:56 am#267553

seekingtruth

Participant

Quote

then who is that GOD that appreared to moses ang other prophets?

The image of God

Image – a physical likeness or representation of a person, animal, or thing, photographed, painted, sculptured, or otherwise made visible.

Something an invisible GOD would need to interact with man

My opinion – Wm

December 12, 2011 at 11:11 am#267555

terraricca

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 13 2011,03:56)

Quote

then who is that GOD that appreared to moses ang other prophets?

The image of God

My opinion – Wm

I would like to know how can we see an Image of the invisible God ,?

and if their is one image “that is what scriptures say ” what would it look like ??

Christ the son of God his that image what part of him is the image ??

is it the body what is carnal and God his father his spirit ,so it cannot be ,i think that it is the spirit part of Christ that was the image ,the reflection in his actions ,
other wise how can the invisible be visible??

Pierre

December 12, 2011 at 7:10 pm#267623

Blocked

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 11 2011,18:32)

John 1:18 actually says, “No one has ever seen God, but the only begotten god, who is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.”

The twisted words you quoted come from Trinitarian scholars, who have tried to pervert the scriptural words and make them imply that Jesus is the God he is the Son of.

Quote (jammin @ Dec. 11 2011,18:32)

no one has ever seen GOD. it is the father that jesus is telling. but in the old testament, GOD has seen many times even face to face.

Jammin', vice regents OF God were often called “YHWH” or “God” because they were known to be REPRESENTING God Himself. No man has ever seen God Himself.

Consider this:
Judges 13
21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.

22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”

Do you see how Manoah KNEW it was God's angel, and not God Himself? But he still said, “We have seen GOD!”.

Here's another:
Exodus 3
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”

6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

Jammin, did Manoah see God Himself, or an angel OF God? Did Moses see God Himself, or an angel OF God?

God Himself told Moses, “No man can see my face and live”. And John said, “No man has seen God at ANY TIME”.

Those words are good enough for me.

December 12, 2011 at 11:26 pm#267649

journey42

Participant

Where the carcass is, the eagles will gather.

Also, you will note that the ones that side together at some point turn on each other.

My problem with that site, is that this lady who elected herself the final authority on every single topic and conversation, would come on and obstruct nearly every single post I or reply I made. She would twist my words. If I said something was white, she would say, so you are confessing that it's black. Anyway she ended up getting banned for some reason I dont know, and then I realised that all these other people that had joined were jumping in on the bandwagon and attacking my every post and agreeing with her. They would twist my words the same and say the same things to me. I realised that about 4 or 5 of these other people were the same person….her…and some of them had been on there for the last year or so. she was imposing as others, and witnessing & backing up her own replies through these characters. Her characters got nastier, and nastier to me, and they were not reprimanded. But I played along, and took out my sword, and fought as hard as I could. God really opened up the scriptures to me, and I mean really opened them up and this sword cut them so much (pure, plain, biblical scripture) got them worked up so much, that they couldn't take it…So instead of answering scripture, they attacked me full steam. They made posts in big lettering, beware of Wolves, and said there is a new cult in here, stay away from her.

In the end they got me on a technicality. When I answered in scripture they would change the subject and ask…Is Jesus God the Father. I ignored, and they kept asking and asking. I said that I would answer on a different post because I didn't want the subject lost. (they knew my stance) so I kept my word, and brought up a new post, like the one I put on here, I also asked these other characters if they were her, and I got banned for mentioning her name.

So she was exposed and others were starting to see that all these people were her. But they soon hushed me up. and banned me, and now I am banned forever. The moderators, will not answer my emails. It was like I never existed. But heh it's not about me, it's about the word, that word contained on those scriptures stays on there forever.

I feel like inviting some of them here and putting them in the hot seat! What do you think? But is it worth it? If that were the case, you will witness christianity at it's lowest, but the word of God will prove to be the final authority.

December 13, 2011 at 2:15 am#267661

Blocked

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 12 2011,16:26)

she was imposing as others, and witnessing & backing up her own replies through these characters.

We've had a couple of similar experiences here. It's easy to pick out an alter-ego when they start giving accolades to one particular poster over and over.

Does anyone remember when Istari came on telling us all how brilliant JA was?

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 12 2011,16:26)

I did when I left. I invited the mods who banned me. And then I had a friend who is a member both here and there deliver my “final post” for me. In that post, I invited them all to come here where we could discuss the scriptures without fear of being banned for not agreeing with the “boss”.

In fact, one of the people I was talking to at Christian Chat was named “Grandpa”. I saw where a “Grandpa” joined HN recently, but I haven't seen any posts from him yet.

December 15, 2011 at 9:57 pm#268004

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2011,12:15)

Does anyone remember when Istari came on telling us all how brilliant JA was?

Yeah that is right, I kind of remember that now.

December 16, 2011 at 3:02 am#268020