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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,22:14) Hi Jodi,
I am surprised you are not devoted to disproving the existence of angels as well as they are hard to see and science does not acknowledge their existence. Why pick and choose? What about God?
Once again may I remind you, at this point not sure why I even bother with you, but anyway, let me remind you that I DO NOT DENY the existence of evil spirits I DEFINE them differently then you do. So I am not picking and choosing on whether certain things in the bible do and do not exist.Irene …….thats exactly what the false teaching or Doctrines about demons do to you, they make you believe thing that are not real, that is the plague, believing in them does to you. The human mind is powerful and can conger up all kind of things that are not true. GOD forbid those teachings, even telling Israel to put to death those with familiar spirits or intellect. Those teaching are unhealthy and cause people to speculate and believe in unseen things and attribute to them powers that don't exist. There is no haunted Houses or any demons going around jumping in and out of people. If you ever want to live in reality you must get rid of those teaching of the apostate Church's. WE are told to come out of (ALL) of those false teachings. The TRINITY, PREEXISTENCES, TEACHING ABOUT DEMONS AND DEVILS. Come out or you will recieve of (HER) plagues. (not God's Plagues, but HER Plagues). IMO
love and peace to you and Georg…………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ May 13 2009,23:05) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,17:12) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,18:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2009,17:57) Hi Jodi,
So our Master was deluded?
Was this only temporary or not?Should we rely on you to tell us who is deluded?
Nick, have you ever fasted before? Like say for a 24 hour period? How did you feel? How was your mental state?Jesus was a human being just like us, you honestly think that after 40 DAYS without food his MIND WAS AT THE TOP OF HIS GAME?
The body and the MIND of Jesus were weakened because of starvation, thus they were more influential to deceive him and lead him astray. The carnal nature of man does indeed deceive man and lead him astray…it speaks and says serve me and you shall live and be fulfilled. But the truth is that to be carnally minded is death, to be Spiritually minded is life and peace.
Hi Jodi,
We do not make assumptions about his mental state from a scientific viewpoint.Scripture is greater and truer than weak human measures.
I believe one reason for fasting is to get visions. That is what the Americans do and the follow a corrupted version of the true faith. God does speak to us in dreams and vision but it is up to us to correctly interpret them. Still even if Jesus was having visions in the desert that does not prove that Satan does not exist. And to say he was is at best speculation.
Hi Kerwin,Let me clarify as to what I meant by,”I believe that once Jesus reached severe hunger to the point of delusion that his carnal nature, the devil, challenged his mind and his faithfulness to God. In the end we know that the wisdom and truth of God in Jesus prevailed against his carnal nature.”
When I used the word delusion I meant that due to severe hunger the body of Jesus drew the mind of Jesus closer to the delusion or lie that man must serve the body in order to live.
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
When we are carnally minded we are in a state of belief that we need to serve our body in order to live. We know the truth, that we must serve God to live.
Hunger can draw our carnal nature to believe the lie or the delusion all the more.
When we take the adversary in the wilderness and make him out to some rebel spirit, IMO we take away completely the significance of what Jesus accomplished in the wilderness. Man's problem has been….
Genesis 8:21 And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of humankind, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from youth; nor will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.
Jeremiah 18:12 And they said, “That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.”
Sorry, I REFUSE to ADD to scripture and follow the traditions of men who say that it is rebel spirits who put the bad thoughts into man's evil heart.
What does NATURE MEAN??
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Ro 7:5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
Ro 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
Eph 4:22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
When Jesus was sent into the wilderness to be tested by God, after going hungry for forty days his body tempted his mind. Jesus did not follow his sinful nature, his father the devil, Jesus did not allow himself to be CONTROLLED by the devil, he denied his sinful nature.
Col 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,
2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
We were not circumcised in Christ by the putting off evil rebel spirit influences, but by putting off the sinful NATURE!!
Jesus in the wilderness put off his sinful nature, he did not give into the needs of his body and use the powers that God gave him for his own sake.
The bible asks us to PUT OFF our sinful nature, to NOT GIVE INTO IT'S LUSTS. We are NEVER asked to put off the undetectable influences of rebel spirits. Jesus is a great inspiration to us, he exerted a great amount of mental strength and self control over his weak body.
Really, come on here let's think about this. What would draw Jesus to want him to make food for himself, some rebel spirit saying you should make food, or the desire of his HUNGRY BODY?
James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Quote (Gene @ May 14 2009,03:54) Irene …….thats exactly what the false teaching or Doctrines about demons do to you, they make you believe thing that are not real, that is the plague, believing in them does to you. The human mind is powerful and can conger up all kind of things that are not true. GOD forbid those teachings, even telling Israel to put to death those with familiar spirits or intellect. Those teaching are unhealthy and cause people to speculate and believe in unseen things and attribute to them powers that don't exist. There is no haunted Houses or any demons going around jumping in and out of people. If you ever want to live in reality you must get rid of those teaching of the apostate Church's. WE are told to come out of (ALL) of those false teachings. The TRINITY, PREEXISTENCES, TEACHING ABOUT DEMONS AND DEVILS. Come out or you will recieve of (HER) plagues. (not God's Plagues, but HER Plagues). IMO love and peace to you and Georg…………………….gene
Spend a month at my grandmothers house…and see if you still believe this..
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote Kerwin what do you think it means when God says there is NONE besides Him, that He creates darkness and calamity.
It means that there is only one God and that even Satan and his host must get permission from him before they do their evil and despicable deeds. I would venture to say that “creates” and “forms” are probably mistranslations though since “causes” or a synonym sounds more appropriate to the context. Remember in the book of Job it was Satan that inflicted Job with his trouble and yet Job states:
Job 2:10(NKJV) reads:
Quote But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
So why did Job credit God for Satan’s actions and scripture declares him correct to do so?
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote God says in Deuteronomy 28 and I believe I have read it in at least one or two other places, that he made cursing to be passed down to children and children's children. Thus God made diseases hereditary.
I agree with your statement though Satan and his host are the tools God uses to put the cursing into effect. We know this since as scripture testifies that Job was inflicted with itching boils from head to foot by Satan. In the case of Job, God was not punishing Job but rather was testing his heart.
Why does God choose to use angels when he could do it himself? He uses the angels to form light and create peace and their fallen brethren to create darkness and calamity. That is his good and righteous choice.
Please note that I am making the assumption that demons and fallen angels are one and the same. This is not necessary the case.
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote When I used the word delusion I meant that due to severe hunger the body of Jesus drew the mind of Jesus closer to the delusion or lie that man must serve the body in order to live.
Do some research on the vision quests of the American Indian since what Jesus did sounded a whole lot like a vision quest in the fasting and going into a desolate area aspects anyways. Chances are he was seeking a vision from God. I assume you believe in visions from God.
Quote (dirtyknections @ May 14 2009,02:26) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,05:10) DK, I would like to know honestly, what you personally have experienced or witnessed yourself. Me, personally…I have only experienced a couple of things…mainly because my mother refused to let me spend any significant amount of time at my grandparents home where these events took place i.e. no sleepovers and no being there alone…
1. My cousin who was visiting from out of town and I were allowed to stay the night with my grandmother one night. We were about 12. Now my grandmother would get up at the crack of dawn to cook breakfast whenever she had visitors over. So right before dawn my cousin and I were awaken by loud footsteps.
( my grandmothers house is one of those early century homes that have the floating floors i.e. the house actually is suspended off the ground..so footsteps sound like “Doom..Doom..Doom”)
Well, I tell him that I am going to get up to see if grandma needs any help. So I walk into the living room…and see no one…I check the kitchen and other rooms and see no one…finally I go to my grandmother's room and peek in….SHE WAS SOUND ASLEEP… I don't really think anything of it so I tell my cousin that grandma was sleep and that she probably just went to the bathroom….so I lay back down…
Well, about 10 minutes later…we hear the footsteps again..”Doom..Doom..Doom…Doom”…So I get up again….and again NO ONE is there…I walk over to my grandma's room and again she is SOUND ASLEEP…at this point i get scared..I go back into the room and my cousin asks if grandma was up..
He just looks at me..and I stare back…then i said I'm not getting up until she comes in hear…lol…when she finally awoke…we asked her if she had been walking around the house
earlier and she said NO…suffice it to say…I didn't spend the night there again until i was an adult…lol…2.I'ma make this one shorter because I hafta go…basically one night my grandma and aunt called some of the men up there..myself included…because they thought someone was trying to break into the house..they said they heard all types of commotion on the back porch…Now my grandmother has a back porch that had been converted into a laundry room…but we still referred to it as the “back porch”..
Anyway, my aunt said that when she went into the laundry everything was a mess..like someone had been “plundering” thru the things…At first I thought it could possibly be a small animal i.e. a cat or something..until I saw that the washing machine and dryer were moved clear across the room… well we put everything back in place and checked things out..then called it a night…
Well…30 minutes after we left we got another call to “come quick..its happening again!!!!”..We rushed up there…and what did we find? The laundry room ramshacked…AGAIN…
like i said that house is HAUNTED…There have been over 20 people who have experienced things in that house…even friends of the family…we are not crazy…EVIL SPIRITS do exist..
Even without the bible..I can easily come to that conclusion…and so have millions of other people..
I am making the argument on this forum that there are NO rebel spirits that influence people to sin, that sin comes from within man, as Jesus says, and Paul hammered out.All the scriptural evidence that makes this clear to me is not going to be washed away because you heard foot steps, or because what seems evident to me is that some people possibly drunk or on drugs attempted to steal an old ladies washer and dryer.
I believe that the bible is clear that ghosts do not exist and when people revel in these ideas God might be inclined to send them strong delusions so they further believe such lies.
2 Thes 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
If rebel spirits have powers and are intelligent you don't think they'd use them more effectively, especially if their purpose is to draw people to sin? I don't see how by haunting a house they are drawing people to serve their flesh and sin.
Does your Grandma live in Oregon, I would love to spend a couple of nights at her house!!
Hi Jodi,
Some indeed are given a spirit of delusion[2thess 2.11]
Do you think you are the uniquely enlightened person and Jesus, the bible and the rest of us are not?
If you find Jesus to have been deluded are you going to continue to quote him in your doctinal defences?Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2009,05:57) Jodi Lee wrote: Quote Kerwin what do you think it means when God says there is NONE besides Him, that He creates darkness and calamity.
It means that there is only one God and that even Satan and his host must get permission from him before they do their evil and despicable deeds. I would venture to say that “creates” and “forms” are probably mistranslations though since “causes” or a synonym sounds more appropriate to the context. Remember in the book of Job it was Satan that inflicted Job with his trouble and yet Job states:
Job 2:10(NKJV) reads:
Quote But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
So why did Job credit God for Satan’s actions and scripture declares him correct to do so?
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote God says in Deuteronomy 28 and I believe I have read it in at least one or two other places, that he made cursing to be passed down to children and children's children. Thus God made diseases hereditary.
I agree with your statement though Satan and his host are the tools God uses to put the cursing into effect. We know this since as scripture testifies that Job was inflicted with itching boils from head to foot by Satan. In the case of Job, God was not punishing Job but rather was testing his heart.
Why does God choose to use angels when he could do it himself? He uses the angels to form light and create peace and their fallen brethren to create darkness and calamity. That is his good and righteous choice.
Please note that I am making the assumption that demons and fallen angels are one and the same. This is not necessary the case.
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote When I used the word delusion I meant that due to severe hunger the body of Jesus drew the mind of Jesus closer to the delusion or lie that man must serve the body in order to live.
Do some research on the vision quests of the American Indian since what Jesus did sounded a whole lot like a vision quest in the fasting and going into a desolate area aspects anyways. Chances are he was seeking a vision from God. I assume you believe in visions from God.
Kerwin your belief does not match with scripture,The following does not show that God allows a rebel spirit to curse people.
It shows clearly God HIMSELF curses people
Deuteronomy 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: 16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country. 17 Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks. 19 Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. 20 “The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The Lord will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. 24 The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed. 25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. 27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you. 30 You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. 33 A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually. 34 So you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see. 35 The Lord will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head. 36 The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods–wood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the Lord will drive you. 38 You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land. 43 The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. 44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.
45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever. 47 “Because you di
d not serve the Lord your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you. 52 They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the Lord your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 58 “If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues–great and prolonged plagues–and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God. 63 And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess. 64 “Then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known–wood and stone. 65 And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67 In the morning you shall say, 'Oh, that it were evening!' And at evening you shall say, 'Oh, that it were morning!' because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see. 68 And the Lord will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, 'You shall never see it again.' And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”I think you need to seriously rethink you understanding brother.
Psalms 70:49 He sendeth on them the fury of His anger, Wrath, and indignation, and distress — A discharge of evil
messengers.This scripture along with many others I gave yesterday directly tells us that God brings forth the evil unto people by sending out HIS messengers to inflict people with plagues, curses and death.
Hi Jodi,
God is light and there is no darkness in Him.
He allows.You ascribe too much power to men preferring to judge and condemn them and to ignore the influences that delude and distract and control them. The Light of Jesus came to set men free so they could see finally their true enemies, who are not men, and be inwardly cleansed and begin to stand up for himself and oppose Satan and the dominion of darkness that bound them.
Quote (dirtyknections @ May 14 2009,05:29) Quote (Gene @ May 14 2009,03:54) Irene …….thats exactly what the false teaching or Doctrines about demons do to you, they make you believe thing that are not real, that is the plague, believing in them does to you. The human mind is powerful and can conger up all kind of things that are not true. GOD forbid those teachings, even telling Israel to put to death those with familiar spirits or intellect. Those teaching are unhealthy and cause people to speculate and believe in unseen things and attribute to them powers that don't exist. There is no haunted Houses or any demons going around jumping in and out of people. If you ever want to live in reality you must get rid of those teaching of the apostate Church's. WE are told to come out of (ALL) of those false teachings. The TRINITY, PREEXISTENCES, TEACHING ABOUT DEMONS AND DEVILS. Come out or you will recieve of (HER) plagues. (not God's Plagues, but HER Plagues). IMO love and peace to you and Georg…………………….gene
Spend a month at my grandmothers house…and see if you still believe this..
You know I have to really laugh at this, no demons? Would really be nice. But unrealistic. Satan exist and so do the fallen angels that are now called demons.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2009,07:41) Hi Jodi,
God is light and there is no darkness in Him.
He allows.You ascribe too much power to men preferring to judge and condemn them and to ignore the influences that delude and distract and control them. The Light of Jesus came to set men free so they could see finally their true enemies, who are not men, and be inwardly cleansed and begin to stand up for himself and oppose Satan and the dominion of darkness that bound them.
Once again Deuteronomy 28 DOES NOT reflect in anyway whatsoever that God is allowing evil rebel spirits to inflict man.Either you believe the scriptures or you don't.
it says….“If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues–great and prolonged plagues–and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed.
The LORD YOUR GOD BRINGS…..it is a FLAT OUT LIE, to say the LORD YOUR GOD ALLOWS.
Isaiah 14:4 that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say, “How the oppressor has ceased, {And how} fury has ceased! 5 “The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of rulers 6 Which used to strike the peoples in fury with unceasing strokes, Which subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution. 7 “The whole earth is at rest {and} is quiet; They break forth into shouts of joy. 8 “Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, {and} the cedars of Lebanon, {saying,} 'Since you were laid low, no {tree} cutter comes up against us.' 9 ” Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. 10 ” They will all respond and say to you, 'Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us. 11 'Your pomp {and} the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out {as your bed} beneath you And worms are your covering.' 12 “How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! 13 “But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 14 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' 15 “Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit. 16 “Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, {saying,} 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to {go} home?' 18 “All the kings of the nations lie in glory, Each in his own tomb. 19 “But you have been cast out of your tomb Like a rejected branch, Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit Like a trampled corpse. 20 “You will not be united with them in burial, Because you have ruined your country, You have slain your people. May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever. 21 “Prepare for his sons a place of slaughter Because of the iniquity of their fathers. They must not arise and take possession of the earth And fill the face of the world with cities.” 22 “I will rise up against them,” declares the LORD of hosts, “and will cut off from Babylon name and survivors, offspring and posterity,” declares the LORD. 23 “I will also make it a possession for the hedgehog and swamps of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” declares the LORD of hosts.
Neither do we find the word adversary or fallen angel in Isaiah 14. This chapter from beginning to end is said to be about a human king, a MAN who thought he could make his throne rise above the stars of God and thought he could make himself like the most high God. The human king is referred to as the star of the morning, and he was brought down from his high position and cut off from his authority and power.
Irene your doctrine lacks any sort of scriptural PROOF in Isaiah.
No fallen angel, no jealous angel, no angel wanting to be a god, no angel controlling the world through evil influences, no rebel angels being renamed demons.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 14 2009,05:58) Quote (dirtyknections @ May 14 2009,02:26) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,05:10) DK, I would like to know honestly, what you personally have experienced or witnessed yourself. Me, personally…I have only experienced a couple of things…mainly because my mother refused to let me spend any significant amount of time at my grandparents home where these events took place i.e. no sleepovers and no being there alone…
1. My cousin who was visiting from out of town and I were allowed to stay the night with my grandmother one night. We were about 12. Now my grandmother would get up at the crack of dawn to cook breakfast whenever she had visitors over. So right before dawn my cousin and I were awaken by loud footsteps.
( my grandmothers house is one of those early century homes that have the floating floors i.e. the house actually is suspended off the ground..so footsteps sound like “Doom..Doom..Doom”)
Well, I tell him that I am going to get up to see if grandma needs any help. So I walk into the living room…and see no one…I check the kitchen and other rooms and see no one…finally I go to my grandmother's room and peek in….SHE WAS SOUND ASLEEP… I don't really think anything of it so I tell my cousin that grandma was sleep and that she probably just went to the bathroom….so I lay back down…
Well, about 10 minutes later…we hear the footsteps again..”Doom..Doom..Doom…Doom”…So I get up again….and again NO ONE is there…I walk over to my grandma's room and again she is SOUND ASLEEP…at this point i get scared..I go back into the room and my cousin asks if grandma was up..
He just looks at me..and I stare back…then i said I'm not getting up until she comes in hear…lol…when she finally awoke…we asked her if she had been walking around the house
earlier and she said NO…suffice it to say…I didn't spend the night there again until i was an adult…lol…2.I'ma make this one shorter because I hafta go…basically one night my grandma and aunt called some of the men up there..myself included…because they thought someone was trying to break into the house..they said they heard all types of commotion on the back porch…Now my grandmother has a back porch that had been converted into a laundry room…but we still referred to it as the “back porch”..
Anyway, my aunt said that when she went into the laundry everything was a mess..like someone had been “plundering” thru the things…At first I thought it could possibly be a small animal i.e. a cat or something..until I saw that the washing machine and dryer were moved clear across the room… well we put everything back in place and checked things out..then called it a night…
Well…30 minutes after we left we got another call to “come quick..its happening again!!!!”..We rushed up there…and what did we find? The laundry room ramshacked…AGAIN…
like i said that house is HAUNTED…There have been over 20 people who have experienced things in that house…even friends of the family…we are not crazy…EVIL SPIRITS do exist..
Even without the bible..I can easily come to that conclusion…and so have millions of other people..
I am making the argument on this forum that there are NO rebel spirits that influence people to sin, that sin comes from within man, as Jesus says, and Paul hammered out.All the scriptural evidence that makes this clear to me is not going to be washed away because you heard foot steps, or because what seems evident to me is that some people possibly drunk or on drugs attempted to steal an old ladies washer and dryer.
I believe that the bible is clear that ghosts do not exist and when people revel in these ideas God might be inclined to send them strong delusions so they further believe such lies.
2 Thes 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
If rebel spirits have powers and are intelligent you don't think they'd use them more effectively, especially if their purpose is to draw people to sin? I don't see how by haunting a house they are drawing people to serve their flesh and sin.
Does your Grandma live in Oregon, I would love to spend a couple of nights at her house!!
again…until you have experienced what my FAMILY has experienced..I would refrain from judgement
Hi Jodi,
A quick read of Job 1-2 and Zech 3 will show the roles of Satan in accusing and being allowed to test men.
Only prayer and the hedge prevents such pain in our lives.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2009,09:47) Hi Jodi,
A quick read of Job 1-2 and Zech 3 will show the roles of Satan in accusing and being allowed to test men.
Only prayer and the hedge prevents such pain in our lives.
Nick,I think you hit the nail on the head.
It doesn't really matter the nature of the spirits the point is that God is in control which is the point that Jodi was making and that God allows us to be tested by spirits which is the point that others are making and both is true.
It is like I was saying, in the Quran the spirits that are rebellious are not being guided by God and God warns mankind not to accept guidance from no one but Himself.
Jodi…….isn't it amazing how they over look the part that says He was a MAN> That made the whole earth tremble. not some spook or devil , but a man . Another thing they talk about devils and SATAN, but will not except that Jesus called PETER SATAN. and the Pharisees devils.
Amazing they just can't put it together. Goes to show how the false teaching of the doctrines of devils and demons, effect the minds of people and causes them to believe in things they can not prove or see. It is truly a plague the effects the minds of those who believe in them. IMOpeace and love to you and yours sis……………………gene
It is written in:
Ephesians 6:12(NKJV) reads:
Quote For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
So is God teaching us through Paul that we are struggling against our own flesh and blood as some are claiming or is he teaching us we are struggling against the Devil and his hosts as others claim?
If the later then why does scripture also claim,
James 1:14(NKJV) reads:
Quote But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
My question is” how does what God teaches through James contradict what He teaches through Paul?” A fisherman when fishing is the tempter by casting a lure into the water but it is the fish's own desires that cause him to become enticed with the lure and that enticement leads to the fish becoming hooked. Satan and his horde are but the fisherman on the bank casting lures before men. A man that becomes hooked to the point he seem unable to escape on his own is said to be possessed.
I am told:
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote I think you need to seriously rethink your understanding brother.
And then am referred to consider Psalms 78:49 which I do in context and then I ask this question. It is the nuclear bomb that reined destruction on Hiroshima and Nagasaki less than a century ago so why do we blame human beings? So if a demon chooses to use plagues to wreck havoc on those he accuses, either rightfully or wrongfully, is it the plagues’ fault or is it the demons. If God allows these evil messengers a free hand for his own reasons then isn’t he still the one in control?
We know from scripture that it was Satan that put so many troubles and tribulations on Job though he used disasters and diseases as tools. We also know it was a spirit that lured Ahab’s advisers into speaking false prophecy. So knowing these things why does anyone find it so hard to believe that Satan and his host can use the same things in vengeance and testing that they do to test the hearts of the righteous and deceive foolish counselors?
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote This scripture along with many others I gave yesterday directly tells us that God brings forth the evil unto people by sending out HIS messengers to inflict people with plagues, curses and death.
No it does not. What it teaches you is that God is in control. It does not detail his methods though it describes part of them. That is why I addressed one of the scriptures you quoted yesterday in the first part of this post.
To Marty whom typed:
942767 wrote:
Quote There is only “one Ghost” and that is the “Holy Ghost”.
Isn't the Holy Ghost a spirit but not a ghostly one?
I am going to have to disagree with you since scripture gives an account of the witch of Endor summoning a ghost. In addition the apostles and other disciples believed Jesus was a ghost after he rose from the dead and when they did so Jesus did not deny the existence of ghosts but rather gave evidence he was not one. Are ghosts common? Extremely rare from what little I know. Here are the photos from one guy who grew interested in unexplained phenomena.
This brings me to my final point and that is that it is obvious from scripture that Jesus and his followers believed in demons. To deny that is to contradict what is written. We are even taught:
James 2:19(NKJV) reads:
Quote You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
It is clear they not only believed in demons but taught demons as part of their doctrine.
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