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Kerwin……….A man is drawn into temptation from himself, his lusts of the Flesh or lust of the eyes, or PRIDE of LIFE as John stated, saying (ALL), (nothing more), is recieved from the world. This whole ideology of demons and spooks, controlling people is a false teaching of the apostatized church. People can and are mentally challenged and some are really mentally sick, ask yourself why people today don't think that people who are mentally ill are demon possessed , it is because we have learned that mental illnesses do in fact exist, and is part of the human condition.
In the time of Jesus they thought everyone who was mentally Ill had a demon in them causing the condition, like people who had Epilepsy or other major mental or physical disorders. But we have advanced in medicine to where we (understand) these diseases as not having nothing to do with demons or spooks jumping in and out of people, The people of Jesus' day thought that when a person was healed of these conditions that they were being excised of demons or some unseen begin of some kind controlling them. While God can sent Evil Spirit to a person to plague or punish them and scripture shows that has happened as in the case of King Saul , nowhere does it say these are demon beings of some kind operation as separate individuals under the leadership of some unseen kind of underworld ruler who is fighting against GOD. GOD is in control of (ALL) things without exception.
The fear of these things causes all kind of Phobias in the mind of people and is the plague people recieve who believe in them, It causes them to become superstitious of everything, they don't understand. This plague has effect people far more then you might imagine. It also causes a person to look outside of themselves for whats wrong in there lives instead of consecrating on their own self as the problem, the idea the devil is causing it is a product of this thinking, some out side force, but not my own personal behavior that is causing my problems. IMO
peace and love……………………….gene
Good Morning Kerwin,
I don't know if you caught this earlier on this thread, but if you wouldn't mind reading this and then responding as to show what you see in the following to be in error, and maybe explain what it is you think I'm missing scripturally I'd greatly appreciate it .
Mark 9:17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. 18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.” 19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.” 20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth. 21 So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” 23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” 25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!” 26 Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.
We see Jesus speaking to the deaf and dumb spirit. Jesus also spoke to a fever, rebuking it to come out of a woman. Jesus also spoke to the wind. We see in the beginning God spoke to the animals telling them to be fruitful and multiply. So to answer WJ’s question from awhile back which was,”Is there anyway an honest person can read this scripture and infer that these demons or unclean spirits were sickness or mental illness and that Jesus is telling mental illness to go out into the abyss?” I believe the answer would be YES indeed according to what the scriptures say, Jesus talks to fevers and the wind why wouldn’t he talk to mental disorders? When the evil spirit cries out to Jesus it is the disease talking through the man. Research today in the field of mental disorders confirms this as well, that the human brain under disorder is capable of bizarre, crazy behavior, we can see wide ranges of intelligence as well, from dumbness to even attributes of genius.
Biblical fact is that God says HE alone makes the deaf, the dumb and the blind, these are all attributes we see with those inflicted with evil spirits or demons. To me this makes the identity of the demons we see in the Gospels rather obvious. I’d rather take scripture itself to form my understanding rather then to be a fool and blindly follow in the traditions of men. I desire to prove all things and most of mainstream Christian beliefs don't add up to what the scriptures say!!
Notice Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him..
Jesus calls the spirit itself deaf and dumb. According to mainstream Christianity aren’t these spirits suppose to be intelligent? How is it even possible for the deaf spirit to hear Jesus in the first place? Well how does a fever hear Jesus or the wind for that matter? These little details of scripture PROVE that demons, evil or unclean spirits are not some sort of free agent rebel supernatural spirit beings, they are inflictions cast under God's powers.Here is another very interesting point about those possessed by evil or unclean spirits, if the evil spirits are free agents against Jesus and God, then why don’t they just flee away from the person that their inflicting at the sight of Jesus coming? Why do they wait around and give Jesus the satisfaction of them having to obey him and cast them out?
Here are some things to keep track of when reading about the demons or evil spirits in the Gospels-
-the evil spirits never leave the bodies on their OWN accord, they are cast out by the commands of Jesus.
-they don’t deny at all their command coming from Jesus
-those who are possessed are said to be troubled or suffering from the evil spirit
-those who have the evil spirit cast out are said to be healed or cured
-the people inflicted by evil spirits are never said to have allowed the spirits to enter them.
-the people inflicted are never said to be themselves evil, or that they must repent in order to be healed.
-The evil spirits that are inflicting people are not said to be influencing the people to commit sins, but rather are inflicting them in manners of physical and mental disorder and pain of which Jesus HEALS them of.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 07 2009,13:38) I would like to argue that the Pharisees in the New Testament were indeed whores, prostituting themselves to false religion and denying the truth established in the Old Testament by God's faithful prophets. Likewise, Christians who believe that the inflicting demons in the Gospels are rebel spirits to God, have as well gone a whoring, blindingly following after the deceitful traditions of men, giving head to false prophets and false doctrine!!
Unless…YOU alone have been guided into all truth…I would refrain from judging others beliefs “whoring,blindingly following traditions of men”…I KNOW that evil spirits “demons” do exist. Your calling my knowing a false doctrine is:
1: Presumptuous at best
2: A study in exegesis
What I would like to see you explain away is how millions of people thru out the centuries since the bible was penned, can have a shared physical, spiritual, psychological experience…
(i.e. demon possession, harassment,) and yet the phenomenon not “be real”…Forget the bible for a second…My family was literally terrorized by evil entities for decades…I have told this story here before but i will repeat a little for you…
My family experienced: Doors slamming, Doors shaking, being held down, clothes being shredded, being physical touched and caressed, footsteps when no ones there, my grandfather would be physically choked, voices,
physical manifestations i.e. creature like beings appearing, dogs appearing then turning into snakes and slithering under tables or shooting into the ceiling. and these are just SOME of what we experienced…
And before you go into a rant about this being some “mass psycho-social delusion”… the people that these things happened to are: nurses,supervisors, administrators, teachers, bank managers,
People with NO known history of mental illness…matter of fact 2 of my family members who experienced these things
EVERY sin can be directly linked to man's own weakness in his nature. Scripture directly tells us that all the evils that come from man come from within him, from his OWN heart's desires. What we see out in the world confirms what the scriptures say.
I know of no one personally who has said their sin resulted from following some spirit being. If you asked the people of the world why they did a bad thing, I believe there would only be a small handful (those IMO medically insane), that said they were choosing to follow the influence of a spirit being. All others would say they chose to do it because THEY felt themselves like doing it.
If these evil rebel spirits did exist then it would have to be said that they influence people without them even knowing it then. Therefore we would have a HUGE problem on our hands….for man would NOT be AT ALL responsible for his own evil actions. How can you stop and influence if you don't even know it exists?
If you believe that rebel evil spirits unknowingly influence you to sin, then how are you to fight against those influences when you cannot even detect them?
This all just makes me wonder if people when they believe something, if they even THINK IT THROUGH!
Galatians 5: 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
There is NOTHING in here that speaks of the flesh being drawn by seducing rebel spirits.
Remember Jesus called Peter SATAN for having in mind the things of men.
Paul tells us that man's mind without the Spirit of God follows his carnal nature and that is what leads him to sin.
So why then is it in error to define our adversary that draws us to sin, as our carnal nature?
Would someone please show me what scriptural proof they have that the Hebrew word meaning adversary pronounced saw-tawn, suddenly became represented as ONE individual identified as a rebel evil spirit?
The scriptures show me that in the Old Testament the Israelites called God's messengers of which whom He sent out to curse and inflict them, adversaries. Pagans thought these angels and their powers of which came through God were false gods and demons. We know that Israelites often betrayed God and followed in pagan religion and ideas. Seems evident to me that mainstream Christianity today follows in the error thinking of the Israelites who turned the curses of God into the curses of false spirits.
God says He ALONE brings cursing, calamity and darkness onto man..there is NO OTHER SUCH SUPERNATURAL POWER THAT CAN DO SO.
This FACT alone should cause people to rethink their understanding, and see if they may indeed be viewing several scriptures with wrong assumptions and error.
The adversary in Job FOLLOWED God, and Job understood his cursing as coming from God. The adversary in Job was not some REBEL evil spirit being against God, that is a man made tradition.
Scripture directly tells us that it is the Lords eyes that walk to and fro on the earth, and his eyes are His messengers of whom are sent to curse man for their sins, and that their children and children's children will inherit these disease with NO fault to their own.
Man is said to be the roaring lion hiding in secret ready to devour people.
When you look at all the evidence from the entire bible, IMO it just does not add up to the traditional views of Christianity…at all.
Gene wrote:
Quote In the time of Jesus they thought everyone who was mentally Ill had a demon in them causing the condition, like people who had Epilepsy or other major mental or physical disorders. But we have advanced in medicine to where we (understand) these diseases as not having nothing to do with demons or spooks jumping in and out of people
So you chose to believe someone who worships this god called science instead of those who worship the God of Adam, Abraham, and Jesus. That sounds like a foolish move to me. As for me I will tell you God is right and those who worship science are wrong.
In case you do not realize it demons have the ability to manipulate the human body and other things and just because you see their manipulations and not them does not mean they are not doing the manipulating. In Job Satan inflicted Job with boils. Those boils were possibly a staph infection. Since Satan can cause boils then why can’t he cause the bacteria that causes the boils?
Do you realize that your conclusions say the four books of the gospels are myths and fairy tales as the miracles spoken of within their pages teach of demons speaking in many cases. If you believe the writers lied in those cases then how can you trust them in other situations?
Gene wrote:
Quote GOD is in control of (ALL) things without exception.
You are showing a lack of understanding what scripture means by what it states. Consider the account given in the book of Job and how Satan was unable to do anything without permission from God.
Quote (dirtyknections @ May 13 2009,02:43) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 07 2009,13:38) I would like to argue that the Pharisees in the New Testament were indeed whores, prostituting themselves to false religion and denying the truth established in the Old Testament by God's faithful prophets. Likewise, Christians who believe that the inflicting demons in the Gospels are rebel spirits to God, have as well gone a whoring, blindingly following after the deceitful traditions of men, giving head to false prophets and false doctrine!!
Unless…YOU alone have been guided into all truth…I would refrain from judging others beliefs “whoring,blindingly following traditions of men”…I KNOW that evil spirits “demons” do exist. Your calling my knowing a false doctrine is:
1: Presumptuous at best
2: A study in exegesis
What I would like to see you explain away is how millions of people thru out the centuries since the bible was penned, can have a shared physical, spiritual, psychological experience…
(i.e. demon possession, harassment,) and yet the phenomenon not “be real”…Forget the bible for a second…My family was literally terrorized by evil entities for decades…I have told this story here before but i will repeat a little for you…
My family experienced: Doors slamming, Doors shaking, being held down, clothes being shredded, being physical touched and caressed, footsteps when no ones there, my grandfather would be physically choked, voices,
physical manifestations i.e. creature like beings appearing, dogs appearing then turning into snakes and slithering under tables or shooting into the ceiling. and these are just SOME of what we experienced…
And before you go into a rant about this being some “mass psycho-social delusion”… the people that these things happened to are: nurses,supervisors, administrators, teachers, bank managers,
People with NO known history of mental illness…matter of fact 2 of my family members who experienced these things
Hi DK,Your clearly not thoroughly reading my posts.
I have NEVER said what people are experiencing is NOT REAL… nothing even close to that. Please go back and read what I HAVE said.
Matthew 5:6-13(NIV) reads:
Quote When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!” 8For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you evil spirit!” Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” “My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area. A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
Jesus carried on a conversation with the demons and even granted them a favor, which they took advantage of in order to give him a bad name in the area. Some may even say he was tricked. Being tricked by a non-sentient insanity?
Quote (kerwin @ May 13 2009,05:09) Matthew 5:6-13(NIV) reads: Quote When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!” 8For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you evil spirit!” Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” “My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area. A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
Jesus carried on a conversation with the demons and even granted them a favor, which they took advantage of in order to give him a bad name in the area. Some may even say he was tricked. Being tricked by a non-sentient insanity?
Hi Kerwin,If people can't read my posts and debate with me keeping in mind my understanding then we are not going to get anywhere.
People on this forum seem to be greatly ignorant to what exactly people can say and do when they are suffering from mental illnesses.
Do you realize that the brain can hold in it's subconscious the belief of demons, and when a person is suffering from a mental disorder that disease can feed off that belief, thus resulting in the diseased man talking and acting in a manner as to what the subconscious believes is a demon and refer to itself as a demon?
There is still so much about the human brain and it's capabilities that man does not know about. In the past view years man has learned more about the human brain then it has in all of history!!
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,13:52) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 12 2009,08:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,07:32) Quote (Gene @ May 12 2009,02:50) Jodi……….you have it right sis, There is no evil demons going around jumping in and out of people, These doctrines of Demons are products of the apostatized Churches. And if recieved into ones thinking they cause phobias of all kinds these are the plagues people get who buy into these false teachings. Man is the problem and is the adversary of GOD, he is the SATAN, not some unseen being going around jumping in and out of people. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
So when Jesus cast out an unclean Spirit are you saying that God put the unclean spirit in there? That could not be because the point that Jesus was making about beelzebub casting out evil spirits causing his kingdom to fall would apply likewise if Jesus was casting out demons that God put in them on purpose.
Hello, bodhitharta,Matthew 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.” 25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out?
It does seem a little confusing doesn't it, but please give this some thought,
The Old Testament particularly Deuteronomy, like in chapter 28, the scriptures tell us that God makes people mad, blind, deaf, and dumb as a form of punishment. God as well, as an additional punishment to the people, tells them that these diseases inflicting them will also be passed down through their families generations.
bodhitharta, when Jesus is healing people from sicknesses and diseases he is healing people from what was God's inflictions. God is not to be compared to the false god beelzebub. God inflicts and heals people as He sees fit under a righteous purpose, so what Jesus was saying to the Pharisees would not apply to His Father.
We see in the Old Testament, actually I gave an example of this early today from Chronicles, that God would curse the Israelites and then He would have mercy on them taking away the plagues.
When God curses and then heals does that mean He is divided against Himself? No of course it doesn't He is Righteous God, and that which He does has a righteous purpose.
Jesus knew the Pharisees thoughts it says. The Pharisees believed strictly that beelzebub was an evil supernatural force, so with that belief of which Jesus knew, makes it understandable why he would tell them how he could not be beelzebub. Forces of evil are forces of evil, they wouldn't heal otherwise they would be divided against itself.
I hope that makes sense.
With the Israelites God says if they change their ways and repent He would heal them but what we have in the cases in the new testaments are people who have not changed anything, they are “under the control of these spirits” and they are cast out. Even Jesus says that some will not be cast out except with much prayer and fasting”Why is it hard for you to believe that spirits of any type can go rogue? Satan did.
Actually I use to believe in fallen angels up until a few years ago…then when I started studying the bible thoroughly for myself, I changed my mind.And whom do you believe Satan is?
The bible gives several adversaries, not one is said to be rebel supernatural spirits.
We have God and His messengers said to be satans unto man.
We have man said to be satans to God and man being satans to other men, and we have man's carnal nature with it's passions and desires said to be a satan.Hi Jodi,
When will you put aside your own fabications and return to building on the rock of Jesus's teachings?Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,13:57) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 12 2009,09:21) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,08:07) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 12 2009,07:37) Hi Nick, and how would you define the god of this world exactly?
Philippians 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame–who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
How would you define what's meant by, “whose god is their belly”?
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
I see a two party here NOT a three, it's just man and his mind and God and His. Notice the spirit of the world is the spirit of man. The nature of man is foolish and spiritually discerned. Notice it is man's wisdom that is in error, not some invisible influencing rebel spirit's wisdom.
Acts 19:14-16 (King James Version)14And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Romans 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.Man is said to serve his fleshly desires,
Romans 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
If man is not controlled by the Spirit he is controlled by the desires of his flesh, thus making him a slave to his flesh, thus his flesh rules over him and is his god.
Philippians 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Those who set their minds on earthly things are thus being CARNALLY minded, their god is their belly and their end is destruction because to be carnally minded is death.
Ro 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Mt 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
Jesus shows the other master besides God to be man's own fleshly desires….such as selfishness and greed.
Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, F20 drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
All throughout the bible we see the idea of TWO masters, One being God and the other being our fleshly desires.
As far as Acts is concerned, knowing what people are capable of doing while their minds are inflicted with an evil spirit or mental disorder, the scripture makes complete sense to me. The person inflicted is not consciously aware of his behavior the disease has taken over his brain and has made him mad. This is entirely different from people who SERVE, as if it were a god, their sinful fleshly desires and intentionally hurt and oppress other people in the process.
Keep in mind that I do not totally disagree with what you are saying but it is not totally correct. Satan tempts Jesus it is understood that Jesus is resisting his fleshly desires and in doing so is resisting Satan.Eve did not resist her fleshly desires and in turn did not resist Satan.
Please tell me out of your own heart and with The Holy Spirit guiding you what is the main point you are making here?
Well my main
point would be, that from knowing the disingenuous creation of the word Satan by the translators, not rendering it properly as merely adversary, we can see quite clearly from the bible that man's only adversary when it comes to being drawn to sin, has everything to do with man himself. Our own carnal nature, and the carnal nature of others is why evil exists!Mt 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
Lu 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.
Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
The adversary that entered into Judas was a spirit of greed, just one of many of man's fleshly desires.
I know I keep repeating some of the same points, but once again I would like to bring up WHY Jesus called Peter an adversary? It was not because he was following some invisible supernatural being, it was said because Peter had in mind the things of men. Men are carnally minded unless they overcome that nature through God's Spirit. Again, another point I have already made, about the devil in Revelation 1, it is talking about a King going to put Christians in prison. Why is the King called a devil? Not because he is following after some invisible supernatural being but because he is following his own desires.
The scriptures say we are born children of wrath, and it's because we are born with a carnal nature. When someone is acting in a way where they are giving into their carnal nature they are being and adversary unto themselves and they become an adversary to others.
Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt F7 the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
I find it very interesting that it starts off telling us that Jesus is going to be tempted, then we are told that he is starved and THEN we see the temptation come. What came to Jesus, was it some supernatural being? I think the answer is quite clear, having not eaten for forty days the temptation that came was the desires of his carnal nature. Jesus had all of God's powers and his carnal nature wanted him to use those powers for himself, but Jesus denied that nature and served God.
Thus why it is written,
Heb 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
Jas 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Heb 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
The carnal mind is death
Live according to the flesh you will die
Carnal mind is enmity
Desire brings sin and sin brings deathI don't see in scripture it saying that invisible supernatural beings bring death, or that to live according to a supernatural evil spirit brings forth death.
So when I see, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, I believe it is of scriptural truth to say that the devil must represent carnal nature.
Why would carnal nature be called devil, and not just carnal nature? Devil means slanderer, it does not mean a supernatural spirit, but….a false accuser or liar. Our carnal nature is exactly that, it is a liar because it feeds our mind that we need to serve it in order to live and be fulfilled. On the contrary we need God and His Spirit in order to have life and fulfillment.
Carnal nature is correctly called devil and adversary…for that describes it to a tee. When a king is called a devil we know exactly what he is being referred to, a man following his carnal nature.
When Christ returns carnal nature will be locked away because only people who are spiritually minded will dwell on earth. When the second resurrection comes those are the people who have yet to become spiritually minded, they are still carnal, and thus the devil has been released. God says it is only for a little while because He will eventually become ALL in ALL, burning away carnal nature in the Lake of fire!!
Quote (kerwin @ May 13 2009,05:01) Gene wrote: Quote In the time of Jesus they thought everyone who was mentally Ill had a demon in them causing the condition, like people who had Epilepsy or other major mental or physical disorders. But we have advanced in medicine to where we (understand) these diseases as not having nothing to do with demons or spooks jumping in and out of people
So you chose to believe someone who worships this god called science instead of those who worship the God of Adam, Abraham, and Jesus. That sounds like a foolish move to me. As for me I will tell you God is right and those who worship science are wrong.
In case you do not realize it demons have the ability to manipulate the human body and other things and just because you see their manipulations and not them does not mean they are not doing the manipulating. In Job Satan inflicted Job with boils. Those boils were possibly a staph infection. Since Satan can cause boils then why can’t he cause the bacteria that causes the boils?
Do you realize that your conclusions say the four books of the gospels are myths and fairy tales as the miracles spoken of within their pages teach of demons speaking in many cases. If you believe the writers lied in those cases then how can you trust them in other situations?
Gene wrote:
Quote GOD is in control of (ALL) things without exception.
You are showing a lack of understanding what scripture means by what it states. Consider the account given in the book of Job and how Satan was unable to do anything without permission from God.
Actually, what is great about Gene and I's position is that what we see the scriptures tell us is confirmed as well by medical facts.There have been and are today people with brain tumors that once the tumor grows to a certain size or depending on where the tumor is in the brain begin to have a coming and going additional personality that exhibits extreme crude behavior along with violence, often physically and emotional hurting their loved ones. This is not the person doing it, and it is not a supernatural evil spirit doing it….it is a tumor.
YHWH says His Powers ALONE produce BOILS, so when the adversary unto Job inflicted Job with boils it was through God's powers that the messenger was able to do so.
YHWH says that HE ALONE holds the Power to manipulate the body…there is no other supernatural force that can do so.
Kerwin you are directly deny the Almighty God.
Once again neither Gene or I believe that anyone in the Gospels were lying. Neither one of us deny the demons in the Gospels, we just don't define them as false gods as you do, we understand the evil spirits to be God's evil spirits, the only true supernatural evil spirits there are.
Exactly!……. Satan didn't do anything that wasn't under God's permission, that hardly sounds like some rebel spirit to me. I posted earlier the scriptures that tell us that it is God's messenger that roam earth walking to and fro to be God's eyes and ears. The OT shows that in those times His messengers roamed around inflicting people if they sinned. The adversary in Job was one of those messenger, he knew Job had vanity building up in his heart and that he was only faithful because he had a hedge of God's protection around him. Job needed testing and refinement. The story is told from the point of view of an Israelite who knew that God had Son's who brought blessings and others, whom they called adversaries pronounced in Hebrew as saw-tawn, that brought the cursing.
Jodi! I am only going to make one Post, Since I am so disgusted with your and Gen's outlook on the Spirits. To say that these Spirits are God's Spirit is an insult to God. Satan was Lucifer a very beautiful Angel. He was vain and wanted to put himself on the Throne of God. There was a fight in Heaven and God throw them out of Heaven. 1/3 of the Angels went with him, and are called demons. God cannot look on Sin and would never have unclean spirits. We too have to go through our Mediator Jesus in order to be forgiven of our sins.
IreneQuote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,05:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,13:52) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 12 2009,08:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,07:32) Quote (Gene @ May 12 2009,02:50) Jodi……….you have it right sis, There is no evil demons going around jumping in and out of people, These doctrines of Demons are products of the apostatized Churches. And if recieved into ones thinking they cause phobias of all kinds these are the plagues people get who buy into these false teachings. Man is the problem and is the adversary of GOD, he is the SATAN, not some unseen being going around jumping in and out of people. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
So when Jesus cast out an unclean Spirit are you saying that God put the unclean spirit in there? That could not be because the point that Jesus was making about beelzebub casting out evil spirits causing his kingdom to fall would apply likewise if Jesus was casting out demons that God put in them on purpose.
Hello, bodhitharta,Matthew 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.” 25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out?
It does seem a little confusing doesn't it, but please give this some thought,
The Old Testament particularly Deuteronomy, like in chapter 28, the scriptures tell us that God makes people mad, blind, deaf, and dumb as a form of punishment. God as well, as an additional punishment to the people, tells them that these diseases inflicting them will also be passed down through their families generations.
bodhitharta, when Jesus is healing people from sicknesses and diseases he is healing people from what was God's inflictions. God is not to be compared to the false god beelzebub. God inflicts and heals people as He sees fit under a righteous purpose, so what Jesus was saying to the Pharisees would not apply to His Father.
We see in the Old Testament, actually I gave an example of this early today from Chronicles, that God would curse the Israelites and then He would have mercy on them taking away the plagues.
When God curses and then heals does that mean He is divided against Himself? No of course it doesn't He is Righteous God, and that which He does has a righteous purpose.
Jesus knew the Pharisees thoughts it says. The Pharisees believed strictly that beelzebub was an evil supernatural force, so with that belief of which Jesus knew, makes it understandable why he would tell them how he could not be beelzebub. Forces of evil are forces of evil, they wouldn't heal otherwise they would be divided against itself.
I hope that makes sense.
With the Israelites God says if they change their ways and repent He would heal them but what we have in the cases in the new testaments are people who have not changed anything, they are “under the control of these spirits” and they are cast out. Even Jesus says that some will not be cast out except with much prayer and fasting”Why is it hard for you to believe that spirits of any type can go rogue? Satan did.
Actually I use to believe in fallen angels up until a few years ago…then when I started studying the bible thoroughly for myself, I changed my mind.And whom do you believe Satan is?
The bible gives several adversaries, not one is said to be rebel supernatural spirits.
We have God and His messengers said to be satans unto man.
We have man said to be satans to God and man being satans to other men, and we have man's carnal nature with it's passions and desires said to be a satan.
So do you think it was not an actual spirit in the wilderness that tempted Jesus?Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,07:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,13:57) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 12 2009,09:21) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,08:07) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 12 2009,07:37) Hi Nick, and how would you define the god of this world exactly?
Philippians 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame–who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
How would you define what's meant by, “whose god is their belly”?
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
I see a two party here NOT a three, it's just man and his mind and God and His. Notice the spirit of the world is the spirit of man. The nature of man is foolish and spiritually discerned. Notice it is man's wisdom that is in error, not some invisible influencing rebel spirit's wisdom.
Acts 19:14-16 (King James Version)14And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Romans 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.Man is said to serve his fleshly desires,
Romans 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
If man is not controlled by the Spirit he is controlled by the desires of his flesh, thus making him a slave to his flesh, thus his flesh rules over him and is his god.
Philippians 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Those who set their minds on earthly things are thus being CARNALLY minded, their god is their belly and their end is destruction because to be carnally minded is death.
Ro 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Mt 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
Jesus shows the other master besides God to be man's own fleshly desires….such as selfishness and greed.
Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, F20 drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
All throughout the bible we see the idea of TWO masters, One being God and the other being our fleshly desires.
As far as Acts is concerned, knowing what people are capable of doing while their minds are inflicted with an evil spirit or mental disorder, the scripture makes complete sense to me. The person inflicted is not consciously aware of his behavior the disease has taken over his brain and has made him mad. This is entirely different from people who SERVE, as if it were a god, their sinful fleshly desires and intentionally hurt and oppress other people in the process.
Keep in mind that I do not totally disagree with what you are saying but it is not totally correct. Satan tempts Jesus it is understood that Jesus is resisting his fleshly desires and in doing so is resisting Satan.Eve did not resist her fleshly desires and
in turn did not resist Satan.Please tell me out of your own heart and with The Holy Spirit guiding you what is the main point you are making here?
Well my main point would be, that from knowing the disingenuous creation of the word Satan by the translators, not rendering it properly as merely adversary, we can see quite clearly from the bible that man's only adversary when it comes to being drawn to sin, has everything to do with man himself. Our own carnal nature, and the carnal nature of others is why evil exists!Mt 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
Lu 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.
Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
The adversary that entered into Judas was a spirit of greed, just one of many of man's fleshly desires.
I know I keep repeating some of the same points, but once again I would like to bring up WHY Jesus called Peter an adversary? It was not because he was following some invisible supernatural being, it was said because Peter had in mind the things of men. Men are carnally minded unless they overcome that nature through God's Spirit. Again, another point I have already made, about the devil in Revelation 1, it is talking about a King going to put Christians in prison. Why is the King called a devil? Not because he is following after some invisible supernatural being but because he is following his own desires.
The scriptures say we are born children of wrath, and it's because we are born with a carnal nature. When someone is acting in a way where they are giving into their carnal nature they are being and adversary unto themselves and they become an adversary to others.
Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt F7 the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
I find it very interesting that it starts off telling us that Jesus is going to be tempted, then we are told that he is starved and THEN we see the temptation come. What came to Jesus, was it some supernatural being? I think the answer is quite clear, having not eaten for forty days the temptation that came was the desires of his carnal nature. Jesus had all of God's powers and his carnal nature wanted him to use those powers for himself, but Jesus denied that nature and served God.
Thus why it is written,
Heb 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
Jas 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Heb 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
The carnal mind is death
Live according to the flesh you will die
Carnal mind is enmity
Desire brings sin and sin brings deathI don't see in scripture it saying that invisible supernatural beings bring death, or that to live according to a supernatural evil spirit brings forth death.
So when I see, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, I believe it is of scriptural truth to say that the devil must represent carnal nature.
Why would carnal nature be called devil, and not just carnal nature? Devil means slanderer, it does not mean a supernatural spirit, but….a false accuser or liar. Our carnal nature is exactly that, it is a liar because it feeds our mind that we need to serve it in order to live and be fulfilled. On the contrary we need God and His Spirit in order to have life and fulfillment.
Carnal nature is correctly called devil and adversary…for that describes it to a tee. When a king is called a devil we know exactly what he is being referred to, a man following his carnal nature.
When Christ returns carnal nature will be locked away because only people who are spiritually minded will dwell on earth. When the second resurrection comes those are the people who have yet to become spiritually minded, they are still carnal, and thus the devil has been released. God says it is only for a little while because He will eventually become ALL in ALL, burning away carnal nature in the Lake of fire!!
Hi Jodi,This is what the Quran says about Satan I only bring this up because there is an Islam thread up and I was making the point that the Quran is a clarification of the scriptures:
9) Behold! We said to the angels, “Bow down to Adam”: They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
( س
;ورة الكهف , Al-Kahf, Chapter #18, Verse #50)Here it shows that Satan had another name prior to being a Satan but he became Satan when he broke the command of God. Instead of being an Angel it is clarified that he was of a creation called “jinns”
(42) “Did I not enjoin on you, O ye Children of Adam, that ye should not worship Satan; for that he was to you an enemy avowed?-
( سورة يس , Ya Seen, Chapter #36, Verse #60)(19) Those who fear Allah, when a thought of evil from Satan assaults them, bring Allah to remembrance, when lo! they see (aright)!
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #201)27) When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah.s protection from Satan the rejected one.
( سورة النحل , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #98)(34) Never did We send an apostle or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #52)(6) Many are the jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #179)This points out that there are beings that are called Jinns that are not always evil but they can mislead or oppress humans.
However, what I find most interesting Jodi is that even in Islam your point of view is mirrored exactly how you believe, look:
Below is an excerpt from http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8469.0
The post title is WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN…HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
The Jinn are defined in various lexicons as hidden spirits, creatures of fire, satans and the such, however, they are also defined as powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah. Now, all of these defintions can be found in the lexicons, however, in the context of Al-Qur'an, which of them squares, jibes with, appropriately juxtaposes with, makes sense, within the context of how Allah is using JINN in Al-Qur'an? Now, I consider the definition of “powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codified law from Allah”, to be the proper use of JINN, hence, for me, that is “remaining inside of Al-Qur'an/keeping with the context of Al-Qur'an”.
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2009,13:08) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 13 2009,07:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,13:57) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 12 2009,09:21) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2009,08:07) Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 12 2009,07:37) Hi Nick, and how would you define the god of this world exactly?
Philippians 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame–who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
How would you define what's meant by, “whose god is their belly”?
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
I see a two party here NOT a three, it's just man and his mind and God and His. Notice the spirit of the world is the spirit of man. The nature of man is foolish and spiritually discerned. Notice it is man's wisdom that is in error, not some invisible influencing rebel spirit's wisdom.
Acts 19:14-16 (King James Version)14And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Romans 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.Man is said to serve his fleshly desires,
Romans 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
If man is not controlled by the Spirit he is controlled by the desires of his flesh, thus making him a slave to his flesh, thus his flesh rules over him and is his god.
Philippians 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Those who set their minds on earthly things are thus being CARNALLY minded, their god is their belly and their end is destruction because to be carnally minded is death.
Ro 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Mt 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
Jesus shows the other master besides God to be man's own fleshly desires….such as selfishness and greed.
Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, F20 drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
All throughout the bible we see the idea of TWO masters, One being God and the other being our fleshly desires.
As far as Acts is concerned, knowing what people are capable of doing while their minds are inflicted with an evil spirit or mental disorder, the scripture makes complete sense to me. The person inflicted is not consciously aware of his behavior the disease has taken over his brain and has made him mad. This is entirely different from people who SERVE, as if it were a god, their sinful fleshly desires and intentionally hurt and oppress other people in the process.
Keep in mind that I do not totally disa
gree with what you are saying but it is not totally correct. Satan tempts Jesus it is understood that Jesus is resisting his fleshly desires and in doing so is resisting Satan.Eve did not resist her fleshly desires and in turn did not resist Satan.
Please tell me out of your own heart and with The Holy Spirit guiding you what is the main point you are making here?
Well my main point would be, that from knowing the disingenuous creation of the word Satan by the translators, not rendering it properly as merely adversary, we can see quite clearly from the bible that man's only adversary when it comes to being drawn to sin, has everything to do with man himself. Our own carnal nature, and the carnal nature of others is why evil exists!Mt 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
Lu 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.
Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
The adversary that entered into Judas was a spirit of greed, just one of many of man's fleshly desires.
I know I keep repeating some of the same points, but once again I would like to bring up WHY Jesus called Peter an adversary? It was not because he was following some invisible supernatural being, it was said because Peter had in mind the things of men. Men are carnally minded unless they overcome that nature through God's Spirit. Again, another point I have already made, about the devil in Revelation 1, it is talking about a King going to put Christians in prison. Why is the King called a devil? Not because he is following after some invisible supernatural being but because he is following his own desires.
The scriptures say we are born children of wrath, and it's because we are born with a carnal nature. When someone is acting in a way where they are giving into their carnal nature they are being and adversary unto themselves and they become an adversary to others.
Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt F7 the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
I find it very interesting that it starts off telling us that Jesus is going to be tempted, then we are told that he is starved and THEN we see the temptation come. What came to Jesus, was it some supernatural being? I think the answer is quite clear, having not eaten for forty days the temptation that came was the desires of his carnal nature. Jesus had all of God's powers and his carnal nature wanted him to use those powers for himself, but Jesus denied that nature and served God.
Thus why it is written,
Heb 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
Jas 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Heb 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
The carnal mind is death
Live according to the flesh you will die
Carnal mind is enmity
Desire brings sin and sin brings deathI don't see in scripture it saying that invisible supernatural beings bring death, or that to live according to a supernatural evil spirit brings forth death.
So when I see, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, I believe it is of scriptural truth to say that the devil must represent carnal nature.
Why would carnal nature be called devil, and not just carnal nature? Devil means slanderer, it does not mean a supernatural spirit, but….a false accuser or liar. Our carnal nature is exactly that, it is a liar because it feeds our mind that we need to serve it in order to live and be fulfilled. On the contrary we need God and His Spirit in order to have life and fulfillment.
Carnal nature is correctly called devil and adversary…for that describes it to a tee. When a king is called a devil we know exactly what he is being referred to, a man following his carnal nature.
When Christ returns carnal nature will be locked away because only people who are spiritually minded will dwell on earth. When the second resurrection comes those are the people who have yet to become spiritually minded, they are still carnal, and thus the devil has been released. God says it is only for a little while because He will eventually become ALL in ALL, burning away carnal nature in the Lake of fire!!
Hi Jodi,This is what the Quran says about Satan I only bring this up because there is an Islam thread up and I was making the point that the Quran is a clarification of the scriptures:
9) Behold! We said to the angels, “Bow down to Adam”: They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the jinns, and he b
roke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
( سورة الكهف , Al-Kahf, Chapter #18, Verse #50)Here it shows that Satan had another name prior to being a Satan but he became Satan when he broke the command of God. Instead of being an Angel it is clarified that he was of a creation called “jinns”
(42) “Did I not enjoin on you, O ye Children of Adam, that ye should not worship Satan; for that he was to you an enemy avowed?-
( سورة يس , Ya Seen, Chapter #36, Verse #60)(19) Those who fear Allah, when a thought of evil from Satan assaults them, bring Allah to remembrance, when lo! they see (aright)!
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #201)27) When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah.s protection from Satan the rejected one.
( سورة النحل , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #98)(34) Never did We send an apostle or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #52)(6) Many are the jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #179)This points out that there are beings that are called Jinns that are not always evil but they can mislead or oppress humans.
However, what I find most interesting Jodi is that even in Islam your point of view is mirrored exactly how you believe, look:
Below is an excerpt from http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8469.0
The post title is WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN…HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
The Jinn are defined in various lexicons as hidden spirits, creatures of fire, satans and the such, however, they are also defined as powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah. Now, all of these defintions can be found in the lexicons, however, in the context of Al-Qur'an, which of them squares, jibes with, appropriately juxtaposes with, makes sense, within the context of how Allah is using JINN in Al-Qur'an? Now, I consider the definition of “powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codified law from Allah”, to be the proper use of JINN, hence, for me, that is “remaining inside of Al-Qur'an/keeping with the context of Al-Qur'an”.
Jodi,I just wanted to make clear that there are some in Islam that feel the same way as you do but I find myself agreeing with both those who say there are actual spirits doing things and people doing these things.
It doesn't have to be “either or” It can be both because if a spirit of any type can make a suggestion to someone in the flesh that person in the flesh can act upon it.
Your position is that ultimately all good and evil are under God's control. However being under the absolute control does not mean that God need do anything, as if it is a mans desire to follow evil and man is allowed to be evil then the thing tempting him is evil and yet God tempts no man.
This is the Point God is Good and Satan is the avowed enemy not of God but of Man. Satan is allowed to tempt Man and Man is allowed to resist Satan.
The Quran shows that the advesary is against man.
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