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Hi Jodi,
I am familiar with your dislike for believing what scripture says so have to work from another perspective.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2009,16:21) Hi Jodi,
What happened to the pigs?
Do you think those faithful human vessels do not live to regret their harbouring the sin within?
Once again you choose NO scripture. As I recall, NOT ONE, all say it again, maybe you can prove me wrong, but not ONE example can be given when Jesus heals a person inflicted with a demons, is it said to be because of their own personal sins.Nick wouldn't you have to say then that sinning is not a matter of seeking foregiveness but rather JUST waiting for Jesus to heal you? Man, you aren't making much sense. When did any person inflicted with a demon say forgive me for I am sinning I have allowed evil spirits to make me crazy, blind and deaf?
No, the bible says that God inflicted evil spirits onto people and that their descendents would pay, not because of their sins but because of their forefather's sins they would be cursed.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2009,16:33) Hi Jodi,
I am familiar with your dislike for believing what scripture says so have to work from another perspective.
Nick your such a jokester!!I am the one using scripture your the one who is not.
Did it ever occur to you that your position might have more weight if you would actually use scripture??
O.k….I'm out for now, at least until someone credible has something to say.
In ALL Sincerity I BELIEVE scripture, that's the whole problem for people like Nick. I believe scripture OVER MAN MADE TRADITION.
Clearly Nick cannot discuss what scripture says, he'd just rather call into question people's faith.
Jewish Encyclopedia
Beelzebub
Name of a demon mentioned in the New Testament as chief of the demons (Matt. xii. 24-27; Mark iii. 22; Luke xi. 15-18). When the Pharisees heard (of the cures performed by Jesus), they said: “This man doth not cast out demons but by Beelzebul, the prince of the demons”; whereupon Jesus answered: “If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? But if I cast out demons by the spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.” On another occasion Jesus said to his disciples: “If they have called the master of the house [that is, himself] Beelzebub, how much more (shall they so call) them of his household” [that is, the disciples] (Matt. x. 25). The name “Beelzebub,” written also “Beelzebul,” which occurs nowhere else in Jewish literature, is a variant form of “Baal Zebub,” the god of Eḳron, whose oracle King Ahaziah consulted during his illness, provoking thereby the wrath of God (II Kings i. 2-16); the name is commonly explained after the Septuagint and Josephus, “Ant.” ix. 2, § 1, as the “Lord of Flies” (see Baal-zebub). Plagues being often ascribed to the influence of flies (Ex. xxiii. 28; Eccl. x. 1; Pliny, “Historia Naturalis,” x. 28, 75; Pausanias,” Description of Greece,” v. 14, 1; Aelian, “Natura Animalium,” v. 17, xi. 8; Usener, “Götternamen,” p. 260), the god who dispelled flies (Apollo Apomyios) probably retained his popularity long after he had ceased to be an object of worship. In fact, the fly was regarded by the Jews in particular as more or less impure and demonic. “The evil spirit [“yeẓer ha-ra'”] lies like a fly at the doors of the human heart,” says Rab, with reference to “the flies of death” in Eccl. x. 1 (Ber. 61a and Targ. Yer. to the passage). “A fly, being an impure thing, was never seen in the slaughterhouse of the Temple” (Abot v. 8), nor did one cross the table of Elisha; which fact, according to Rab, gave proof to the Shunammite woman that he was “a holy man” (II Kings iv. 9; Ber. 10b). The devil in German folk-lore also appears in the shape of a fly (Simrock, “Deutsche Mythologie,” 1874, pp. 95, 479).
Beelzebub was a pagan god and his demons WERE NOT REAL, they were fake, making it clear that the Pharisees did not fear God alone but feared false gods.
The foundation of the Old Testament should lead a person to fully see that the demons inflicting man in the Gospels of whom Jesus healed, would have to be none other then evil spirits of whom God has cast onto people.
Demons in the Old Testament are said to be not real and having NO power. All around the nation of Israel there existed other nations who believed in and feared demons, they were common place and made into carved images. God specifically gives warning that HE ALONE is to be feared, He creates calamity and brings darkness. The bible NEVER defines demons as being real fallen or rebel spirits. The bible uses demon interchangeable with evil spirits. The Old Testament tells us clearly that God is the ONLY REAL power that can cause calamity onto a person through supernatural means. Therefore it is clear that the demons or evil spirits in the New Testament who are inflicting man would be a result of God's hand.
Jodi………..Very good Posts sis, I also believe like you on this subject of Demons, We need to come out of (ALL) these False teaching of these false doctrines of demoniacs and Satan beings. GOD alone controls all both good and evil. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Hi Jodi,
Do you believe scripture or only an expurgated version?Must you sanitise from it Satan and his hordes before it is palatable for you?
Interesting approach Nick,
Why don't you GIVE a specific EXAMPLE from my post where I am, as you call it, sanitizing scripture?
Come on, can't you address a point that I have made in a proper fashion?
Take a point I have made and show how my understanding of that scripture is in error and how your understanding makes better sense.
Will you do that?
Or maybe the proper question is Can you do that?
Hi Jodi,
We do not need the fingerprints of men all over the sacred words.
Smudging, deleting, rationalisations and allegorisations are human additions only useful for deception.Nick I am waiting for a proper response.
What is holding you back….seems as if you are completely afraid to face the scriptures themselves, you'd rather just make personal attacks on people.
Quit being a coward and BACK UP YOUR ACCUSATIONS!!
Nick are you insane?
I have quoted ample scripture as they are found in the bible. You have not quoted a single scripture on this thread. I have used scripture to show my position, thus making me an obvious believer of the bible.
Seriously man, what is your deal, are you just trying to run me off this forum?
Your statement that I don't accept scripture to be true is a complete false accusation. Can you give an example of where I have said that scripture is not true? Do you care to back up your accusations?
Interesting how you are more interested in harassing me then you are in discussing the word of God. Your an amusing little creep!!
Hi Jodi,
And you have also refused the plain teaching of Jesus about the devil and evil spirits.
You have your own bible and we do not share it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2009,09:39) Hi Jodi,
And you have also refused the plain teaching of Jesus about the devil and evil spirits.
You have your own bible and we do not share it.
Jesus called Peter a Satan for having in MIND the things of MEN.Jesus said that nothing outside a man can defile him, that man's evil come from within him from his OWN heart.
Jesus said woe to the world for the offenses the offenses that come THROUGH MAN.
I choose to define Satan according JESUS and not according to ignorant arrogant men who profess to be wise but are bloody fools.
I believe God when He says that HE alone creates darkness and calamity.
More accusations Nick, real nice!
What bible is my OWN? I am using the same one as you are?
Give me one example of a scripture that I have refused?
Are you the final authority on scripture Nick, your arrogance is really quite something else. Why do you single me out? So because I don't see a scripture the way YOU do, that means I refuse the teachings of Jesus?
Once again I find you to be an amusing little creep!
Hi jodi,
Peter was a vessel like all men and still harboured those of Satan.
Jesus spoke to the demon.Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 08 2009,08:56) Nick I am waiting for a proper response. What is holding you back….seems as if you are completely afraid to face the scriptures themselves, you'd rather just make personal attacks on people.
Quit being a coward and BACK UP YOUR ACCUSATIONS!!
Jodi……..Amen to that. Nick mouths off, but produces nothing to counter the Posts or Scriptures you have Quoted, thats His MO, Talk like He knows what he is talking about but in fact He will not produce any Scripture to back up what he is saying , Just ignorant and empty word which goes no where. IMOpeace and love to you and yours…………….gene
G,
Same with your own added ideas – we do not share common ground for dialogue.
This is a scripture study site.NICK………Then why not answer Jodi, and others, who has posted many scriptures, while you post non, that supports you position, Isn't that being Hypocritical to say this is a “Scripture site”, and then when they are posted you reject them and refuse to disuse them. It appears more as a not as a open discussion site but a site that allows you to push you personal beliefs over others. When we post scriptures and you refuse to discuss them it show you lack of understanding. IMO
peace and love ……………….gene
Let us pay CLOSE attention to the following passage-
Mark 9:17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. 18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.” 19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.” 20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth. 21 So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” 23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” 25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!” 26 Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.
We see Jesus speaking to the deaf and dumb spirit. Jesus also spoke to a fever, rebuking it to come out of a woman. Jesus also spoke to the wind. We see in the beginning God spoke to the animals telling them to be fruitful and multiply. So to answer WJ’s question from awhile back which was,” Is there anyway an honest person can read this scripture and infer that these demons or unclean spirits were sickness or mental illness and that Jesus is telling mental illness to go out into the abyss?” I believe the answer would be YES indeed according to what the scriptures say, Jesus talks to fevers and the wind why wouldn’t he talk to mental disorders? When the evil spirit speaks to Jesus it is the disease talking through the man. Research today in the field of mental disorders confirms this as well, that people can speak as if there is a completely different person inside them. The human brain under disorder is capable of bizarre, crazy behavior, we can see wide ranges of intelligence as well, from dumbness to even attributes of genius.
Biblical fact is that God says HE alone makes the deaf, the dumb and the blind, these are all attributes we see with those inflicted with evil spirits or demons. To me this makes the identity of the demons we see in the Gospels rather obvious. I’d rather take scripture itself to form my understanding rather then to be a fool and blindly follow in the traditions of men. I desire to prove all things and most of mainstream Christian beliefs don't add up to what the scriptures say!!
Notice Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him..
Jesus calls the spirit itself deaf and dumb. According to mainstream Christianity aren’t these spirits suppose to be intelligent? How is it even possible for the deaf spirit to hear Jesus in the first place? Well how does a fever hear Jesus or the wind for that matter? These little details of scripture PROVE that demons, evil or unclean spirits are not some sort of free agent rebel supernatural spirit beings, they are inflictions cast under God's powers.Here is another very interesting point about those possessed by evil or unclean spirits, if the evil spirits are free agents against Jesus and God, then why don’t they just flee away from the person that their inflicting at the sight of Jesus coming? Why do they wait around and give Jesus the satisfaction of them having to obey him and cast them out?
Here are some things to keep track of when reading about the demons or evil spirits in the Gospels-
-the evil spirits never leave the bodies on their OWN accord, they are cast out by the commands of Jesus.
-they don’t deny at all their command coming from Jesus
-those who are possessed are said to be troubled or suffering from the evil spirit
-those who have the evil spirit cast out are said to be healed or cured
-the people inflicted by evil spirits are never said to have allowed the spirits to enter them.
-the people inflicted are never said to be themselves evil, or that they must repent in order to be healed.
-The evil spirits that are inflicting people are not said to be influencing the people to commit sins, but rather are inflicting them in manners of physical and mental disorder and pain of which Jesus HEALS them of.
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