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Hi BD,
What is true religion?[ jas]
You must be born again.You cannot reach God and you cannot receive anything from Him than the promised rain for all till you choose to seek first the kingdom and obey the Son of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2009,14:58) Hi BD,
What is true religion?[ jas]
You must be born again.You cannot reach God and you cannot receive anything from Him than the promised rain for all till you choose to seek first the kingdom and obey the Son of God.
To obey the son of God is to be obedient to the things he has heard from God.I love God with all my heart, soul and mind and I love my neighbor as I love myself.
This is the whole of the law do you put upon me laws that even Jesus did not put upon mankind?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2009,06:03) Quote (Gene @ May 15 2009,03:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2009,18:46) G,
Did you miss chapters 1 and 2 of Job?
Nick……….no i have not , if you will notice that it was (Not) the adversarial Spirit the brought up Job it was GOD himself that did, why? because GOD wanted to use it to discipline JOB. God set the limits of what it could do, and when it failed to bring JOB to the point GOD wanted, He allowed it to advance further, but only to a point, God was disciplining JOB, to bring him to a point of a true relationship by humbling him. Job was acting as an adversary of GOD himself until He was corrected. And then He repented, and was restored. That was Gods purpose all along and He used his existing powers to bring it about. IMOpeace and love………………gene
G,
I was sure I read that God had conversations with Satan several times about what was to be done in Jb 1-2.Perhaps you removed those pages?
Nick……….The conversation with Satan (Adversarial Spirit) or intellect. God uses that spirit to bring about His purposes in peoples lives. It was the same when Jesus dealt with it also at his temptation after fasting for forty days and nights, He was hungry and wanted food and know he had been given power from on high and could turn the rocks into bread if he wanted to. This was his own thoughts that were doing that, but the Spirit of GOD in him overcame it and gave him the right response. Jesus was tempted as all men are by their (OWN) human nature, not some external being of some kind taking control of Him. His battle was within Himself not external as it is with us also.Nick i see you never committed on what i posted about where it says that GOD Brought all the EVIL on JOB. He used Evil influences or SPIRITS (INTELLECTS) to cause the situations to occur in Job's LIFE. God can and does send Evil Spirit (Intellects) on people to discipline them in their lives, As in the case of King Saul. These are not beings they are spirit intellects. But because you don't know what Spirit is you are unable to understand this, so you attribute it to some Evil god beings going around jumping in and out of people of some kind.
If you could understand all life is simply Thoughts or Intellects of the mind, without which there would be no Life. But a thought or intellect is just by it self useless, unless it cohabits a body of some kind. It has no power of it self therefore if this intellect is not in something it is considered as going around in (arid) (DRY)places looking for some where to rest or reside as Jesus said. A Though or intellect is Just that and by it self is useless, but when it is in a body it can animate it to follow what it is impressing on the person. GOD'S Spirit is also INTELLECT of GOD and does also impress and animate us to do the things of GOD. The error is to think a spirit itself is a (bring) of some kind , when in fact it is not, it is intellect or thoughts of the mind. And when a man dies it returns to GOD who gave it and all thoughts are derived from GOD originally. EVEN GOOD AND EVIL. The need is for us to (MASTER) them and with God's help we can. IMO
peace and love………………..gene
G,
We have heard your odd philosophies before.
The teaching of Jesus is more straightforward and plain.He is truth but are you?
Nick……….i know Jesus is true and what i am saying is not against His teachings. You at this time just don't understand it. IMO.
peace and love……………….gene
Nick……….>God the FATHER and Jesus know full well i am no enemy of theirs, And i know that also….because the spirit (intellect) of GOD both accuses us and defends us, is it accusing you or defending you? if so you need to listen to it, instead of being stuck in the rudiments of the faith and move on to maturity and perfection. A faith not founded on fear but true love and a sound mind. “For (NOTHING) is perfected in FEAR, for Fear has torment”. IMO
peace and love………………………..gene
Quote (942767 @ May 14 2009,09:10) Hi DK: There is only “one Ghost” and that is the “Holy Ghost”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
924767 I think He ment Demon's. They are aroumd us.IMO
IreneNick……….How can you go any further back then you already are? Still stuck in the doctrine of FEAR and TREMBLING.
IMOpeace and love……………………….gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2009,15:37) Hi BD,
So unity with the VINE is not important to you?
Unity with the vine comes by way of those two commandments nickQuote (kerwin @ May 14 2009,05:57) Why does God choose to use angels when he could do it himself? He uses the angels to form light and create peace and their fallen brethren to create darkness and calamity. That is his good and righteous choice. Do you understand the conflict between the powers of evil and the powers of good that go on in this world? God created our bodies to be perfect but Satan and his host came along and altered them in many ways such as causing malevolent changes in the genetics as for example my kidney disease. He also caused changes (mutations) that scientists like to say are the result of random variables and natural selection in other life forms that makes them harmful to human beings. Sometimes the devil will use what is meant for good such as e-coli for evil. God uses Satan’s action for his good and righteous purposes.
God does not tempt anyone to do evil and so the spirit is by its very nature in rebellion against him because it is an evil spirit being one of false prophecy. The demons serve God even while they rebel against him as they cannot do anything without his permission. If you read the book of Job you will find that Satan could not act against Job until God gave him permission to do so. Satan motives for acting against Job were evil while God allowed Satan to act because he that is was good to do so.
And then am referred to consider Psalms 78:49 which I do in context and then I ask this question. It is the nuclear bomb that reined destruction on Hiroshima and Nagasaki less than a century ago so why do we blame human beings? So if a demon chooses to use plagues to wreck havoc on those he accuses, either rightfully or wrongfully, is it the plagues’ fault or is it the demons. If God allows these evil messengers a free hand for his own reasons then isn’t he still the one in control?
No it does not. What it teaches you is that God is in control. It does not detail his methods though it describes part of them. That is why I addressed one of the scriptures you quoted yesterday in the first part of this post.
Hi Kerwin,Let me first say that I of course realize this is a long post, but I hope you will take the time to slowly read through it, especially the scriptures!!=) To share my understanding and try and get people to understand it is a rather difficult task because they have to be able to open their minds and rethink many scriptures into a different light.
I believe that I have randomly quoted you from two or three different posts, the following is my response from those……..
So do you just consider it an unusual coincidence then that the same exact people who God wants to punish for disobeying Him just so happen to be the same people that evil rebel spirits desire to do wickedness unto for their own purposes?
The bible says that God SENDS cursing onto people as a form of punishment.
HE SENDS cannot IMO be likened at all to He allows, or He tolerates.
Doing something with direct intent for a purpose is not at all the same as deciding to allow something to happen. God was not tolerating these curses and plagues, He was COMMANDING them to be done!!
1Ch 21:15 and God sendeth a messenger to Jerusalem to destroy it, and as he is destroying Jehovah hath seen, and is comforted concerning the evil, and saith to the messenger who is destroying, `Enough, now, cease thy hand.' And the messenger of Jehovah is standing by the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite,
God sendeth, NOT God allowed some rebel spirits to do, God commanded His messengers to do something.
God told Israel if you obey you will be blessed, if you don’t you will be cursed. God was not tolerating rebel spirits who wanted to do evil, YHWH was DOING what HE SAID HE WOULD DO!!
Ex 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Ex 9:10 Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast.
The evil that was inflicted onto Egypt was done by Moses through God’s Powers.
Why is it so hard to understand the simple words that God says, HE ALONE does these things. Especially when we look at the context, where God was trying to disprove to the people that there were no other forces that could do such. Kerwin your trying to say that God is the only person in CONTROL, but God is specifically saying that He ALONE holds the POWERS, and when He wants something done we see He gives those powers to messengers, and prophets.
Do you see that distinction?
Deuteronomy 7:15 and Jehovah hath turned aside from thee every sickness, and none of the evil diseases of Egypt (which thou hast known) doth He put on thee, and He hath put them on all hating thee.
You say that the adversaries unto the people are evil themselves and are wanting to hurt the people because they are mean spirited. Such an idea is not portrayed in the scriptures. You have it set in your mind that Satan means wicked, this is not so, satan means adversary, and adversary can be a righteous adversary or a wicked one. I have asked before for people to show me the scriptural evidence that shows when the Hebrew word for adversary becomes the proper name of one specific individual? When God chooses to punish people He is seen to those people as being an adversary, and the agents of whom He sends to inflict are as well known as adversaries.
Kerwin can you honestly say your going strictly by what the scriptures say?
Hebrew Word: !tX
Transliterated Word: satanNu 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversaryagainst him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
Nu 22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
1Sa 29:4 And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversary to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?
2Sa 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?
1Ki 5:4 But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent.
1Ki 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.
1Ki 11:23 And God stirred him up another adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:
Rebel angels are NOT stirring and God allowing or tolerating. The scripture clearly shows that God is STIRRING!
1Ki 11:25 And he was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad did: and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria.
Ps 38:20 They also that render evil for good are mine
adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is.Ps 71:13 Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonour that seek my hurt.
Ps 109:4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
Ps 109:20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
Ps 109:29 Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.
1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
How disingenuous were the translators!!! 1 Chronicles should be rendered in the same manner as in Psalms, ADVERSARY. David was often worried about enemies or adversaries and warfare. There is NO evidence whatsoever in 1 Chronicles that some supernatural rebel being has either appeared to David and influenced him to number his men, or has possessed his mind and caused him to number his men. What would cause David to count his men? Why would you want to know the size of your army? Obviously David felt threatened by an adversary and was concerned about war, thus wanting to know how many men he had. Why would God be angered by this, should David have faith in numbers or in his God?
21:7 And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. 8 And David said unto God, I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. 9 And the LORD spake unto Gad, David's seer, saying, 10 Go and tell David, saying, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things: choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee. 11 So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee 12 Either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me. 13 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall now into the hand of the LORD; for very great are his mercies: but let me not fall into the hand of man. 14 So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men. 15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite. 16 And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces. 17 And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O LORD my God, be on me, and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued. 18 Then the angel of the LORD commanded Gad to say to David, that David should go up, and set up an altar unto the LORD in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite. 19 And David went up at the saying of Gad, which he spake in the name of the LORD. 20 And Ornan turned back, and saw the angel; and his four sons with him hid themselves. Now Ornan was threshing wheat. 21 And as David came to Ornan, Ornan looked and saw David, and went out of the threshingfloor, and bowed himself to David with his face to the ground. 22 Then David said to Ornan, Grant me the place of this threshingfloor, that I may build an altar therein unto the LORD: thou shalt grant it me for the full price: that the plague may be stayed from the people. 23 And Ornan said unto David, Take it to thee, and let my lord the king do that which is good in his eyes: lo, I give thee the oxen also for burnt offerings, and the threshing instruments for wood, and the wheat for the meat offering; I give it all. 24 And king David said to Ornan, Nay; but I will verily buy it for the full price: for I will not take that which is thine for the LORD, nor offer burnt offerings without cost. 25 So David gave to Ornan for the place six hundred shekels of gold by weight. 26 And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering. 27 And the LORD commanded the angel; and he put up his sword again into the sheath thereof. 28 At that time when David saw that the LORD had answered him in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there. 29 For the tabernacle of the LORD, which Moses made in the wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the high place at Gibeon. 30 But David could not go before it to enquire of God: for he was afraid because of the sword of the angel of the LORD.
Shall we deny what is proven here? God himself commands plagues and it is HIS angels that bring them, and these angels are indeed feared as adversaries unto Israel.
Here is another example of what the angels of the LORD do-
Isa 37:36Then the angel of the Lord went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. When the people got up the next morning–there were all the dead bodies!
There is NO scriptural evidence here that the plagues are a result of rebel supernatural beings and God is merely tolerating their wickedness onto man.
What God does allow is for a punishment for one man’s sin affect thousands of people.
Let’s keep in mind in the following scriptures that Satan means adversary and that we have seen so far that men are adversaries to other men and that the LORD”S messengers are adversaries who inflict man with plagues and curses.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
What other scriptures do we have that tell us who exactly are those that walk to and fro in the earth,2 Chronicles16:8 Were not the Ethiopians and the Lubims a huge host, with very many chariots and horsemen? yet, because thou didst rely on the LORD, he delivered them into thine hand. 9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars. 10 Then Asa was wroth with the seer, and put him in a prison house; for he was in a rage with him because of this thing. And Asa oppressed some of the people the same time. 11 And, behold, the acts of Asa, first and last, lo, they are written in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel. 12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians
We saw earlier David did not rely on the Lord but he went and counted his men so as to rely on numbers. David was punished and Israel was punished through David, but David repented and the Lord had HIS messenger pull back his sword.We see Asa did not rely on the Lord, for God’s eyes run to and fro throughout the whole earth ready to discipline mankind, therefore Asa was stricken with disease. Asa however once again did not rely upo
n the Lord and therefore he died.Zech 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, F2 and white. 9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be. 10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth. 11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
Re 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Isa 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'
Forming and Doing is not the same at all as allowing and tolerating.God creates peace and calamity through His powers according to His messengers who walk to and fro through the earth. Nothing is said in the scriptures about God tolerating rebel spirits being in charge of the peace and calamity on earth.
Job 1:7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
There is nothing in Job that would have us believe that the adversary is some rebel spirit against God and wants to be evil unto Job for wicked sake. On the contrary the adversary is God’s agent that walks to and fro and noticed the hedge around Job and saw that he needed testing and refinement. Notice how the adversary said to God to stretch out YOUR HAND, so not only did Job attest his infliction to God but the adversary did as well. The adversary was a loyal servant to God doing his job.
There is not a single scripture where we are told that the Hebrew word for adversary became the proper name for an evil spirit being. In every instance that we see the word adversary or satan we must look at the context to identify who that adversary is.Jer 11:3 and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God of Israel: “Cursed is the man who does not obey the words of this covenant
Jer 17:5 Thus says the Lord: “Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the Lord.
Deut 32:35 Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.' 36 “For the Lord will judge His people And have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their power is gone, And there is no one remaining, bond or free. 37 He will say: 'Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge? 38 Who ate the fat of their sacrifices, And drank the wine of their drink offering? Let them rise and help you, And be your refuge.
1Ki 9:9 Then they will answer, 'Because they forsook the Lord their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore the Lord has brought all this calamity on them.' “
Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth! Behold, I will certainly bring calamity on this people— The fruit of their thoughts, Because they have not heeded My words, Nor My law, but rejected it.
Jer 25:29 For behold, I begin to bring calamity on the city which is called by My name, and should you be utterly unpunished? You shall not be unpunished, for I will call for a sword on all the inhabitants of the earth,” says the Lord of hosts.'
Kerwin you said that your understanding is that God is ultimately in control but that He allows rebel spirits to curse mankind. Can you honestly say that is what you see the scriptures portray?
Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
God is not declaring this to say that He is in control of all other powers, permitting and tolerating other powers to do things. He is declaring that He Himself is the only Spirit that indeed actually has any powers.
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.' 8 “Rain down, you heavens, from above, And let the skies pour down righteousness; Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation, And let righteousness spring up together. I, the Lord, have created it. 9 “Woe to him who strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth! Shall the clay say to him who forms it, 'What are you making?' Or shall your handiwork say, 'He has no hands'? 10 Woe to him who says to his father, 'What are you begetting?' Or to the woman, 'What have you brought forth?' ” 11 Thus says the Lord, The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: “Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons; And concerning the work of My hands, you command Me. 12 I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands–stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, And I will direct all his ways; He shall build My city And let My exiles go free, Not for price nor reward,” Says the Lord of hosts. 14 Thus says the Lord: “The labor of Egypt and merchandise of Cush And of the Sabeans, men of stature, Shall come over to you, and they shall be yours; They shall walk behind you, They shall come over in chains; And they shall bow down to you. They will make supplication to you, saying, 'Surely God is in you, And there is no other; There is no other God.' ” 15 Truly You are God, who hide Yourself, O God of Israel, the Savior! 16 They shall be ashamed And also disgraced, all of them; They shall go in confusion together, Who are makers of idols. 17 But Israel shall be saved by the Lord With an everlasting salvation; You shall not be ashamed or disgraced Forever and ever. 18 For thus says the Lord, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: “I am the Lord, and there is no other. 19 I have not spoken in secret, In a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, 'Seek Me in vain'; I, the Lord, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 “Assemble yourselves and come; Draw near together, You who have escaped from the nations. They have no knowledge, Who carry the wood of their carved image, And pray to a god that cannot save. 21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. 22 “Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteo
usness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, 'Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him. 25 In the Lord all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory.' ”Jeremiah 10:1 Hear the word which the Lord speaks to you, O house of Israel. 2 Thus says the Lord: “Do not learn the way of the Gentiles; Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven, For the Gentiles are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are futile; For one cuts a tree from the forest, The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. 4 They decorate it with silver and gold; They fasten it with nails and hammers So that it will not topple. 5 They are upright, like a palm tree, And they cannot speak; They must be carried, Because they cannot go by themselves. Do not be afraid of them, For they cannot do evil, Nor can they do any good.” 6 Inasmuch as there is none like You, O Lord (You are great, and Your name is great in might), 7 Who would not fear You, O King of the nations? For this is Your rightful due. For among all the wise men of the nations, And in all their kingdoms, There is none like You. 8 But they are altogether dull-hearted and foolish; A wooden idol is a worthless doctrine.
And there we have it, the scriptures are clearly showing that it is not as you say Kerwin, that God allows other spirit powers to do evil and bring plagues.
These scriptures are not talking about who is overall in control, they are specifically talking about who has powers to bring the good and the evil. There is none like God in POWER, there is no other God that can create blessing and cursing.
The scriptures don’t say that false gods and their demons don’t have powers but God and rebel angels do. Don’t you see that when you give over God’s powers to other beings you are creating false gods and false demons/evil spirits?
Fallen angels are false gods, they are false demons. Like I mentioned before the definition of a god is not strictly about what people worship, it’s about believing that something else has God’s powers. The scriptures are making it clear, that YHWH exists with POWERS and He is the ONLY being that does exist with powers, anything else is a false god.
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe–and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2 is talking about faith and works, and how basically there is an outward and inward appearance to faith. People are being accused of merely saying they have faith, but the bigger question is do they act like they do?” Even demons believe –and tremble.” We see examples in the Gospels that those possessed and spoke to Jesus under their infliction confess a belief in God and Jesus as the Holy One, and that they do express fear or trembling. I believe that James was making the point that even those inflicted with madness could express their belief in the one true God and His Holy One, so a sane person doing so is not really saying much, it is in a person’s behavior where one is truly accounted as having faith in God.
Jodi Lee and anyone else whom is concerned,
The teaching about Satan and demons is rather sparse in scripture especially in the Old Testament just like other teaching such as Hades, Hell, angels, The afterlife, and probably others. Why God chose to tell us so little I do not know but that he did seems obvious. Still from what we are told we can draw certain reasonable conclusions.
We know for instance that scripture clearly states that Satan exists. I believe his name is open to debate, as translators are prone to use what is commonly believed about such things, but his existence is not since the book of Job assumes he exist and if he does not then that book is not the word of God. I also believe that since Satan is the father of demons they are like him in many ways.
I am going to start with what the book of Job tells us about Satan except for referencing Revelations and other scripture if it seems appropriate. It seems appropriate to do so when starting out since we are told in Revelations 12:10 that Satan is the accuser of our brother who accuses them night and day. Do you think he just limits his accusations to the righteous? I don’t. Rather I believe he accuses all humankind but not in righteousness but rather from a critical judgmental position that considers not only humankind flawed but also God. That is the attitude that I attribute to Satan and his host. So lets bear that idea in mind when we look at the book of Job.
In Job we are told that Satan came before God who then boasted about how righteous Job was. Just consider how much that boast must have bothered Satan, whom believes mankind is a flawed creation despite God stating otherwise by declaring mankind a very good creation. So what does scripture tell us Satan’s response is? Didn’t Satan respond by tempting God to remove His protections from Job and allow Satan to strike everything Job has? Look how Satan chose to word his temptation. Job tempted God to strike all that Job had. What was God’s response? Did he not then give Satan permission to strike what Job had but he limited Satan in that he still protected Job himself.
Is Satan the accuser of Job?
Who is in command?
Does God strike what Job has and/or does Satan?
Does God limit Satan’s actions?
What does this tell us about demons?
Is Satan the adversary of God?
Is Satan the adversary of Job?
Is Satan the adversary of humankind?
We can look at other scriptures to see what more they tell us about Satan but the passages from Genesis, Revelations and from the first test of Job in the first chapter of Job seem enough for now.
Kerwin………Scripture also says GOD is NOT TEMPTED. YOU are failing to see the whole picture , Who brought the name of Job up in the first place, The LORD used His adversarial Spirit to correct Job, He knew Job would have a very great problem in the future with his (SELF) Righteousness, and had to deal with it at that time, to keep PRIDE from taking over Job in the future. What God did He did for Job's good , it had nothing to do with some Evil tempting God. GOD used the evil to correct Job as Jodi said. Just read the last part of the book, what does it say? It says that GOD brought all this on JOB. GOD takes full responsibility for it all.
To teach doctrines about demons and devil (BEINGS) is what it say the Great Whore Church would do, we are told to come out of Her or we would recieve of (HER) plagues, these plagues are the plagues of (PHOBIAS) of all types. IMO . Man himself is an adversary (SATAN) of GOD he doesn't need some unseen being going around jumping in and out of him to produce that in Him, His own carnal nature does it and leads Him into all these evil things, not some unseen spook. Man is held responsible for His sin not some spook. Blaming or giving these powers to some unseen force apart from GOD is nothing but a lie. It is Man himself that has corrupted his way by His own Greed and Lusts and Pride, and Man will give an account for it all too. The Satan or devil is the man himself He is the adversary of GOD as history has shown, Yes PETER WAS a SATAN, as well as JUDAS and the Pharisees were to these were all ADVERSARIES of GOD. WE ourselves have been Satan's or adversaries of GOD ourselves at times. IMO
peace and love…………………gene
Quote (Gene @ May 18 2009,03:25) Kerwin………Scripture also says GOD is NOT TEMPTED. YOU are failing to see the whole picture , Who brought the name of Job up in the first place, The LORD used His adversarial Spirit to correct Job, He knew Job would have a very great problem in the future with his (SELF) Righteousness, and had to deal with it at that time, to keep PRIDE from taking over Job in the future. What God did He did for Job's good , it had nothing to do with some Evil tempting God. GOD used the evil to correct Job as Jodi said. Just read the last part of the book, what does it say? It says that GOD brought all this on JOB. GOD takes full responsibility for it all. To teach doctrines about demons and devil (BEINGS) is what it say the Great Whore Church would do, we are told to come out of Her or we would recieve of (HER) plagues, these plagues are the plagues of (PHOBIAS) of all types. IMO . Man himself is an adversary (SATAN) of GOD he doesn't need some unseen being going around jumping in and out of him to produce that in Him, His own carnal nature does it and leads Him into all these evil things, not some unseen spook. Man is held responsible for His sin not some spook. Blaming or giving these powers to some unseen force apart from GOD is nothing but a lie. It is Man himself that has corrupted his way by His own Greed and Lusts and Pride, and Man will give an account for it all too. The Satan or devil is the man himself He is the adversary of GOD as history has shown, Yes PETER WAS a SATAN, as well as JUDAS and the Pharisees were to these were all ADVERSARIES of GOD. WE ourselves have been Satan's or adversaries of GOD ourselves at times. IMO
peace and love…………………gene
No,This is totally wrong because God says that Job was correct in all he was saying. Satan was the advesary of Job as he is the advesary to all mankind.
Satan is the avowed enemy of mankind:
(4) So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: “Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?”
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #22)(6) Say to My servants that they should (only) say those things that are best: for Satan doth sow dissensions among them: For Satan is to man an avowed enemy.
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #53)3) Behold! We said to the angels: “bow down unto adam”: They bowed down except Iblis(Satan): He said, “Shall I bow down to one whom Thou didst create from clay?”
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #61)Hi Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 16 2009,00:55)
There is nothing in Job that would have us believe that the adversary is some rebel spirit against God and wants to be evil unto Job for wicked sake.
Then God must be a liar then, for the Lord says to satan…“Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? “He still holds fast his integrity, ALTHOUGH YOU INCITED ME AGAINST HIM TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT REASON.” Job 2:3
WJ
DH……….Don't know what bible your reading, what you are quoting is not in my bible. Sorry.
peace and love……………………..gene
to ALL……….if we can see that and adversary, may not be as bad as you may think it is . Some times God has to be a adversary himself as in the case of Job. But he does that for the ultimate GOOD, He resists the Proud and gives grace to the humble. So to the Proud He is an adversary, or a (SATAN), because thats all the word means. Man applied (a being) to the word Satan, when in fact it is only and adversarial Spirit (Intellect)>There are seven spirit intellect that go to and fro in the whole earth, and the adversarial spirit (intellect) is one of them, but they all go out from one LORD> These spirits are spoken metaphorically as( beings) but in fact they are not beings but INTELLECT or THOUGHTS and are given POWER BY the LORD GOD> The LORD balances His whole creation with all Seven of these, they are intellects with powers and make up ONE GOD. And they interact with each other in all creation composing one GOD under the control of ONE LORD. They work like this , when Jesus comes he will (not) judge by what he sees or hears, but by these seven Spirits that are in HIM> These are the seven Spirits OR (INTELLECTS) of GOD> IMO
Jodi has presented it right. IMO
peace and love to you all……………………gene
Hi WJ, How's it going?
Job 1:8 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?' 9 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `For nought is Job fearing God? 10 Hast not Thou made a hedge for him, and for his house, and for all that he hath — round about? 11 The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath — if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee!' 12 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath [is] in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah.
2:3 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart unto My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God and turning aside from evil? and still he is keeping hold on his integrity, and thou dost move Me against him to swallow him up for nought!'
Once again let me point out that scripture tells us that God sends His messengers to roam to and fro upon the earth to be His EYES and ears. The adversary wants God to inflict Job not because the adversary is being a devil or false accuser against Job. God asks the adversary that isn't Job perfect and upright, and notice that the adversary does not disagree with that, what the adversary SEES is that there is a hedge around Job. So true, so true. God OBVIOUSLY AGREES otherwise He would not have given HIS HAND AND HIS POWER OVER TO the adversary!!
Notice how the adversary PRAYS TO GOD, THAT GOD'S HAND, A RIGHTEOUS HAND, would strike Job. Then God GRANTS the adversary to inflict Job.
Let's remember that the book of Job is written by a human being, an Israelite who feared God and His messengers for good reason!!
The truth be told is that GOOD and UPRIGHT PEOPLE may still indeed need testing and refinement, especially if they have lived a sheltered life where a hedge has been built around them.
By the end of the book of Job, Job did indeed grow and learn. Things turned out for the better for Job. All of this would thus tell us that the adversary was then indeed RIGHT and that the adversary in the book of Job was successful in his job that was given to him by God!!
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