Beelzebub and demons

Participant

Kerwin……….Scripture says it was GOD who brought all of the EVIL on JOB.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all that had been of his acquaintance before, and did ear bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over ALL THE EVIL THAT THE LORD HAD BROUGHT UPON HIM:

God can send evil on people affecting them at times . But man himself is the blame for the EVIL he does not some unseen being going around causing it to happen , We do wrestle against wickedness in hight places , the are evil men in these high places who have been give powers that effect us all. Men driven with greed and self interest caring for their selves and no one else. They lie and deceive people to get what they want creating hardships on others. IMO

peace and love………………….gene

May 14, 2009 at 6:46 am#130971

Participant

G,
Did you miss chapters 1 and 2 of Job?

May 14, 2009 at 6:56 am#130972

Participant

Quote (Gene @ May 14 2009,17:17)

Jodi…….isn't it amazing how they over look the part that says He was a MAN> That made the whole earth tremble. not some spook or devil , but a man . Another thing they talk about devils and SATAN, but will not except that Jesus called PETER SATAN. and the Pharisees devils.
Amazing they just can't put it together. Goes to show how the false teaching of the doctrines of devils and demons, effect the minds of people and causes them to believe in things they can not prove or see. It is truly a plague the effects the minds of those who believe in them. IMO

peace and love to you and yours sis……………………gene

Gene,

To call someone a devil is to say they are behaving as such. The bible also does not call false the teaching of devils and demons it is saying that devils and demons teach false doctrines.

May 14, 2009 at 7:16 am#130976

kerwin

Participant

Gene wrote:

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Another thing they talk about devils and SATAN, but will not except that Jesus called PETER SATAN. and the Pharisees devils.

I don't remember him calling the pharisees demons but I will assume you are correct in my response.

Jesus also called the Pharisees a brood of vipers. Did you take that literally? In any case Peter, and for that matter the Pharisees, were under the influence of the Devil and his host at the time Jesus was addressing them. It is also written:

John 13:2(KJV) reads:

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And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

and

John 13:27(KJV) reads:

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And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

What do you think of those scriptures?

Gene wrote:

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Scripture says it was GOD who brought all of the EVIL on JOB.

I have already mentioned that in a previous post but I also mentioned that God used Satan to bring all of the evil on Job. He did that by permitting Satan to do certain things though he did limit Satan in his actions. Nick mentions this in his response to you. It appears you are missing for trees by looking at the forest when both exist.

May 14, 2009 at 7:20 am#130978

Jodi Lee

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2009,17:48)

It is written in:

Ephesians 6:12(NKJV) reads:

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For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

So is God teaching us through Paul that we are struggling against our own flesh and blood as some are claiming or is he teaching us we are struggling against the Devil and his hosts as others claim?

If the later then why does scripture also claim,

James 1:14(NKJV) reads:

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But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

My question is” how does what God teaches through James contradict what He teaches through Paul?” A fisherman when fishing is the tempter by casting a lure into the water but it is the fish's own desires that cause him to become enticed with the lure and that enticement leads to the fish becoming hooked. Satan and his horde are but the fisherman on the bank casting lures before men. A man that becomes hooked to the point he seem unable to escape on his own is said to be possessed.

I am told:

Jodi Lee wrote:

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I think you need to seriously rethink your understanding brother.

And then am referred to consider Psalms 78:49 which I do in context and then I ask this question. It is the nuclear bomb that reined destruction on Hiroshima and Nagasaki less than a century ago so why do we blame human beings? So if a demon chooses to use plagues to wreck havoc on those he accuses, either rightfully or wrongfully, is it the plagues’ fault or is it the demons. If God allows these evil messengers a free hand for his own reasons then isn’t he still the one in control?

We know from scripture that it was Satan that put so many troubles and tribulations on Job though he used disasters and diseases as tools. We also know it was a spirit that lured Ahab’s advisers into speaking false prophecy. So knowing these things why does anyone find it so hard to believe that Satan and his host can use the same things in vengeance and testing that they do to test the hearts of the righteous and deceive foolish counselors?

Jodi Lee wrote:

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This scripture along with many others I gave yesterday directly tells us that God brings forth the evil unto people by sending out HIS messengers to inflict people with plagues, curses and death.

No it does not. What it teaches you is that God is in control. It does not detail his methods though it describes part of them. That is why I addressed one of the scriptures you quoted yesterday in the first part of this post.

To Marty whom typed:

942767 wrote:

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There is only “one Ghost” and that is the “Holy Ghost”.

Isn't the Holy Ghost a spirit but not a ghostly one?

I am going to have to disagree with you since scripture gives an account of the witch of Endor summoning a ghost. In addition the apostles and other disciples believed Jesus was a ghost after he rose from the dead and when they did so Jesus did not deny the existence of ghosts but rather gave evidence he was not one. Are ghosts common? Extremely rare from what little I know. Here are the photos from one guy who grew interested in unexplained phenomena.

This brings me to my final point and that is that it is obvious from scripture that Jesus and his followers believed in demons. To deny that is to contradict what is written. We are even taught:

James 2:19(NKJV) reads:

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You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

It is clear they not only believed in demons but taught demons as part of their doctrine.

Hi Kerwin,

If you go back to page 6 the fourth post down I explain my understanding of Ephesians 6 and what Paul was referring to when he said that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood…

IMO people often plug in meaning to scripture from what they have been told from doctrine, rather then looking inside at Paul's own words and teachings.

Yes the adversary is the fisherman, and the fisherman is the carnal nature, that is what draws and entices the fish to go after the lure. Like I pointed out earlier, what would tempt Jesus more to cause him to contemplate using God's powers to make food for himself? Some spirit being saying make food, or his body that is Excruciatingly hungry? I would like to draw a huge distinction between what the Gospels say is occurring during demon possession, and what occurs when our adversary our carnal nature entices us. The people who were possessed were suffering from the evil spirit, the evil spirit was making them crazy, the evil spirit was not making them out to be sinners. The evil spirits were making the people blind and or deaf and or dumb.

Kerwin, IMO your missing the point completely…Deuteronomy 28 as well as many other places in the OT shows that the plagues and curses come onto the people because they NEED to be PUNISHED!! They have disobeyed God and have forsaken Him. God sends curses and plagues as a means of discipline and instruction. When I go to discipline my child I don't go out and get some creep off the street to do it, I do it myself. It makes no sense to me that God is going to trust in rebel evil angels to do an important job as to carry out His discipline and His plan to bring mankind into righteousness, the plan of bringing man into the knowledge that he needs God and he must follow Him. YHWH is going to use loyal trustworthy agents. If I want a job done right with integrity and truth, shall I go get the mafia to do it for me?

I will save discussion on James 2 for tomorrow, I've got to hit the hay!

Blessings and Goodnight, Jodi

May 14, 2009 at 7:28 am#130980

Participant

Hi Jodi
Having to be satisfied that truth makes sense to you suggests your mind yet rules.
You need to submit to the Lord Jesus.

May 14, 2009 at 9:08 am#130982

kerwin

Participant

Jodi Lee wrote:

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YHWH is going to use loyal trustworthy agents.

You might think so but second guessing The One That Exists is not necessary a good idea as he uses the government and one would hardly call the government a trustworthy. I would certainly not call Nebakanezer trustworthy. Still when it is God in command and he knows what will happen before it happens and can put a stop to what he does not want he will prevent from happening.

The Jews did debate whether demons and for that matter angels had free will. Some Jewish and for the matter Catholic theology goes into the study of demons much deeper than scripture does but from what little I know that is based on speculation.

Spirit possession is widely believed in many cultures.

Here is an account of one ceremony to placate a possessing spirit. Personally I think bribing demons to behave sounds like a foolish idea. These people obviously think it works.

May 14, 2009 at 3:26 pm#130993

Participant

Kerwin……..Wrong scripture say GOD sets up rulers for the discipline of nations.

DAN 5:21….> And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he (knew) that the most high (God ruled) in the kingdom of men, and that (he) appoints over it whomsoever He WILL.

Jesus told Pilot he could do nothing except it had been given him by GOD. There is also another scripture that says GOD places rulers for the bringing down of a nation or for the building up of ONE, can't find it now. Kerwin this whole ideology of some super demon ruling and controlling the earth is all part of the false teaching of the whore church, GOD is in (FULL) control of HIS WHOLE CREATION, without exception. He brings Evil to punish and to correct its inhabitants. Thats why we are told to obey those who are in authority because GOD has placed them there. Jesus even told the people to obey the Pharisees for they sit in the seat of Moses, they were to do what they said, but not to do as they did. There is no authority except given by GOD. With that understanding we should be able to live peaceful lives. No devils or demons or Spooks going around jumping in and out of people. Those teaching only plague the minds of those who believe in them. WE need to come out of those false teachings about devils and demons and spooks. Nothing has over taken us except what is (Common) among men. IMO

peace and love…………………….gene

May 14, 2009 at 3:38 pm#130995

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2009,18:46)

G,
Did you miss chapters 1 and 2 of Job?

Nick……….no i have not , if you will notice that it was (Not) the adversarial Spirit the brought up Job it was GOD himself that did, why? because GOD wanted to use it to discipline JOB. God set the limits of what it could do, and when it failed to bring JOB to the point GOD wanted, He allowed it to advance further, but only to a point, God was disciplining JOB, to bring him to a point of a true relationship by humbling him. Job was acting as an adversary of GOD himself until He was corrected. And then He repented, and was restored. That was Gods purpose all along and He used his existing powers to bring it about. IMO

peace and love………………gene

May 14, 2009 at 4:52 pm#130996

Participant

To ALL………the power that works in the children of disobedience is the SPIRIT of rebellion Which was in our ancestors and in all man kind ever science. It is a propensity that is in all man kind. It doesn't come from without but within. It is the Spirit (INTELLECT) of rebellion that plagues all mankind. Man wants to be a GOD unto himself , thats why he believes in so-called (FREE WILL) Choices. IMO

peace and love to you all………………..gene

May 14, 2009 at 6:03 pm#130998

Participant

Quote (Gene @ May 15 2009,03:38)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2009,18:46)

G,
Did you miss chapters 1 and 2 of Job?

peace and love………………gene

G,
I was sure I read that God had conversations with Satan several times about what was to be done in Jb 1-2.

Perhaps you removed those pages?

May 14, 2009 at 6:06 pm#130999

Participant

G,
Yes Satan controls natural mankind from within.
Only light received can dispel that domain of darkness.
Why not spread truth rather than your peace and love mantra?

May 14, 2009 at 6:46 pm#131002

kerwin

Participant

Gene wrote:

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Wrong, scripture says GOD sets up rulers for the discipline of nations.

If I understand you correctly you are not disagreeing with me except to limit the reasons places rulers in authority so I have no idea why you state “wrong“. If you are complaining about me not limited the reasons then I guess we can debate who know and does not know the mind of God.

Gene wrote:

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Kerwin this whole ideology of some super demon ruling and controlling the earth is all part of the false teaching of the whore church, GOD is in (FULL) control of HIS WHOLE CREATION, without exception.

You just stated God put rulers in authority and contradicted yourself by stating he could not have put a particular ruler in authority. That is certainly invalid reasoning as your premise contradicts your conclusion. You also contradict scripture.

The judgment.

John 16:11(KJV) reads:

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Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

And its fulfillment.

Revelation 20:10(KJV) reads:

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And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Gene wrote:

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No devils or demons or Spooks going around jumping in and out of people.

You have failed to prove your conclusion which clearly contradicts scripture. You not only have nothing you have less than nothing because God states clearly through his servants that demons do “jump into people“.

Luke 11:24-26(KJV) reads:

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When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

We can certainly discuss the nature of demons but that demons exist is already settled by God.

Gene wrote:

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Those teaching only plague the minds of those who believe in them.

Those teaching that demons do not exist are liars and deceivers that do not believe in God. Jesus and his students not only believe in demons but teach them as part of their doctrine. We know for instance that Jesus was tempted by the devil in the desert after being baptized as well as later. We also know that Jesus communicated with spirits and demons were the one of the first ones to declare him the Son of God after he came from the desert. These are all parts of the testimony that Jesus is the Messiah and there is no reason for these scriptures to mention demons unless those that writ scripture believe they exist and also believe Jesus believes they exist. This puts you at odds with those we hold to be experts of the true doctrine of Jesus the King of everything in heaven and on earth. That is your choice but denial is foolish.

May 14, 2009 at 11:56 pm#131026

Participant

Quote (Gene @ May 15 2009,04:52)

peace and love to you all………………..gene

I agree with this post. However, it does not follow that this would mean that there aren't spirits that oppress mankind.

I don't believe in So-called free will because quite frankly God doesn't give us a choice in the matter God says Obey Him, not obey Him if you feel it's okay.

But, when you are talking about Job it is a spirit from the outside that is causing Job harm and although God permits it Satan is the actual adversary that causes the adversity.

Remember, in the end God says that Job was in the right and he was correct.

Job 1
1There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

The scripture is clear that Job was perfect and upright his friends accused Job of being self-righteous and guilty of hidden sins and all sorts of things but Job maintained his innocence and his righteousness

This is what they preached to him:

4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

5Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.

6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

But this is the truth:

Job 27

5 God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me.

Job 42
7After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz(F) the Temanite: “My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.

Job in the end Glorifies God moreso in the end because he realizes that God is more wonderful than he could imagine.

The bottom line was that Job was righteous and God wanted Job to maintain his dignity under all circumstances.

May 15, 2009 at 12:44 am#131029

Participant

Hi BD,
Dignity?
What is that among the murdered?
Job was found to be a little self righteous, exposed by severe testing.

May 15, 2009 at 12:52 am#131031

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2009,12:44)

Hi BD,
Dignity?
What is that among the murdered?
Job was found to be a little self righteous, exposed by severe testing.

The scripture doesn't say that.

The scripture says that God said that Job was right in fact he told Job to stand up and be even more dignified. remember the bible clearly states that Job was perfect and righteous

Job 1
1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Now it is clear that God says Himself that Job is perfect and upright and that at that time there was no one like him on the earth.

May 15, 2009 at 1:43 am#131035

Participant

Hi BD,
So where did God say his only problem was he did not stick up for himself enough?
When did the pride of men become a divine priority?

May 15, 2009 at 2:22 am#131041

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 15 2009,13:43)

Hi BD,
So where did God say his only problem was he did not stick up for himself enough?
When did the pride of men become a divine priority?

Let the jus stay just

May 15, 2009 at 2:27 am#131043

Participant

Hi BD,
The whole point of The Lord coming was to show the desperate poverty of men and their separation from God in it's true light. Men have always tried to build their own bridges to God and imagine their own righteousness by their works but it is all self aggrandising fantasy unto filthy rags.

He are nothing, are owed nothing and can do nothing useful with our lives without the restoration by our given mediator Jesus Christ of our relationship to God. He has become for us a channel of grace and peace that no other man can offer.

Time ticks unto the grave and we must find the fountain of life before the rope breaks and the bucket and falls to the bottom of the well.[Ecc12. Jn7]

May 15, 2009 at 2:46 am#131048