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Hi t8
++”OK, so you admit to being not as able as nothing with a lot of time on it's hands.
No, that’s not what I said.
++”So how long would it take for 1 million dollars to appear out of thin air in front of my face. 1 thousand, 1 billion, 2.7 trillion years? After all, out of nothing came this explosion that unravelled to form all the wonders of the universe, including varities of bananas on a little planet in the Milky Way galaxy. Wow, it is amazing what nothing can do given enough time.
Dollar bills are designed and printed, the universe and its contents was not. As we have been over already, here is no analogy to be made here.
++”How much time would it take the 1973 Oxford dictionary to come into existence without intelligence? 1 year, 1 million billion trillion trillion trillion trillion?
There is no such thing as the Oxford Dictionary without intelligence. What on earth are you trying to say?
++”How long did it take the first banana to come into existence from nothing? 14 billion years from the Big Bang?
No, less than 14 billion years. Less than 4.57 billion years (the age of the earth), less than 3.5 billion years (the oldest fossils), less than 100 million years (the Upper Cretaceous, during which flowering plants spread).
Quite recently, really.++”Just wondering.
Well there is no need to just wonder. I think you should go back and read the thread you started on evolution. All the answers to the above strawmen arguments are very well documented in there.
Stuart
Oops, re-write question to read how long AGO did the banana come into existence…
No, less than 14 billion years. Less than 4.57 billion years (the age of the earth), less than 3.5 billion years (the oldest fossils), less than 100 million years (the Upper Cretaceous, during which flowering plants spread).
Quite recently, really.Stuart
OK, so you admit that it doesn't matter how long you wait, the 1973 Oxford dictionary will never appear and same with the million dollars. OK that is good.
Now you essentially believe that there was nothing and then a singularity exploded and the expansion of this explosion caused all that we see today including the existence of a banana.
So say 14 billion years ago, an explosion resulted in a banana. OK, very simplistic I know, but that is what you essentially believe.
We both know that what happened in the first moments of this explosion set everything that exists today. If the explosion was less or more intense, then there would be no banana.
So you believe that from nothing and then say 14 or so billion years there came a banana. So that is why I say that you might as well believe that the 1973 Oxford dictionary can appear after a massive amount of time.
In the end, what you believe is totally unacceptable to not only logic, but also common sense. That is what I am showing you when I am asking you how long it would take for a dictionary to appear.
So I will ask again. If it took 14 or so billion years for a banana to come from nothing, then how long would it take for an exact version of the 1973 Oxford dictionary?
I will save you some time in answering. The answer is never.
Likewise how long would it take a banana to appear from nothing, 14 billion years? Well actually the answer is the same, NEVER.You can't hide behind a massive amount of time. Somethings just never will happen unless something exists for it to happen. Design and existence cannot ultimately come from nothing. That is just pure ignorance.
Gee t8
++”OK, so you admit that it doesn't matter how long you wait, the 1973 Oxford dictionary will never appear and same with the million dollars. OK that is good.
You really are a strawman builder in the mould of the best tub-thumping creationists, aren’t you! You seem to be denying the existence of a dictionary here, although it is hard to tell the satire from the delusion.
++”Now you essentially believe that there was nothing and then a singularity exploded and the expansion of this explosion caused all that we see today including the existence of a banana. So say 14 billion years ago, an explosion resulted in a banana. OK, very simplistic I know, but that is what you essentially believe.
No, it’s not.
++We both know that what happened in the first moments of this explosion set everything that exists today. If the explosion was less or more intense, then there would be no banana.
Maybe you know it, but I don’t think this statement is true.
++”So you believe that from nothing and then say 14 or so billion years there came a banana. So that is why I say that you might as well believe that the 1973 Oxford dictionary can appear after a massive amount of time.
Yes, you keep saying that. Do you think it will eventually come true if you iterate?
++”In the end, what you believe is totally unacceptable to not only logic, but also common sense. That is what I am showing you when I am asking you how long it would take for a dictionary to appear.
If you can explain how dictionaries spontaneously reproduce, how they have a genetic code that is a blueprint for making new dictionaries, how that code could be altered by chemical mutagens or radiation then maybe there might be an analogy to be made. The fact is, none of these things are true.
++”So I will ask again. If it took 14 or so billion years for a banana to come from nothing, then how long would it take for an exact version of the 1973 Oxford dictionary?
I will tell you again!
The dictionary is written, printed, marketed, sold and read by intelligent humans. It is intelligently designed. It has a purpose for which it was intended. It has irreducible complexity (if you remove the ink it fails to be useful as a dictionary, although you could use it as a notebook or as a doorstop, or as a heavy object to throw at visitors from the church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints).t8 you seem to think there is some kind of clever analogy to be made between various human-made objects and the appearance of life. This idea, known as the argument from design, was demonstrated to be fallacious over 150 years ago. We have modern science now, you don’t have to live in the Victorian era or medieval Europe any more.
Stuart
Stu Modern Science. Very interesting. Is there a new Bang, too. Maybe in outer space, how is that. That would be cool. You are one of how many Scientists that do not belief in God?
You believe in intelligent design, but not that someone is teaching us that. Think of this. How many years did it take mankind to come up with those intelligent designs? Is it not odd that all of this has happened in the last 100 years. Before then Men were stupid? Only when the Angels were on the earth and we had Giants walking around did we have such intellect. That is why God destroyed this world by the flood. Only Noah and His Family were a pure Race that was left. Now we have a total mess again, it shows you without God guiding you, Satan will take over. He is the God of this world and it shows.
Soon God will put an end to it all. He said in the days when it will be like the Days of Sodom and Gomorrah Jesus will come again. It is beginning to look that that.
Will pray for you.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 23 2007,17:00) Stu Modern Science. Very interesting. Is there a new Bang, too. Maybe in outer space, how is that. That would be cool. You are one of how many Scientists that do not belief in God?
You believe in intelligent design, but not that someone is teaching us that. Think of this. How many years did it take mankind to come up with those intelligent designs? Is it not odd that all of this has happened in the last 100 years. Before then Men were stupid? Only when the Angels were on the earth and we had Giants walking around did we have such intellect. That is why God destroyed this world by the flood. Only Noah and His Family were a pure Race that was left. Now we have a total mess again, it shows you without God guiding you, Satan will take over. He is the God of this world and it shows.
Soon God will put an end to it all. He said in the days when it will be like the Days of Sodom and Gomorrah Jesus will come again. It is beginning to look that that.
Will pray for you.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi MrsIM4TruthI think you've been reading a bit too much revelation!
What giants?
Stuart
Stu Hope you have a Bible. Read in Gen. 6:4 ” There were Giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the Sons of God(Angels) came into the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
They were called Hybrids.
What does Science say about the Pyramids in Egypt, how old are they. How could they have been build. Just my thinking that maybe these Giants built them?Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 24 2007,05:13) Stu Hope you have a Bible. Read in Gen. 6:4 ” There were Giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the Sons of God(Angels) came into the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
They were called Hybrids.
What does Science say about the Pyramids in Egypt, how old are they. How could they have been build. Just my thinking that maybe these Giants built them?Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi MrsIM4TI heard the earth was inhabited by midgets with tiny dextrous fingers. Maybe they made all the intelligently designed watches that creationists seem to find on beaches all the time!
Stuart
Stu When you cant come up with an intelligent answer you get sarcastic? There were Giants around whether you like it or not. Boy I thought you were smarter then that, then to give me such stupid answer. Got caught in your own web, did you?
Stu is blind, it is as simple as that.
I was blind once too, and I know how dark the darkness is.
If he rejects the light, then he will never see correctly as to ascertain the truth.
It is as simple as that, and I personally wouldn't waste too much time on him. Our energy would be better spent helping those who actually want the truth.
Romans 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became foolsT8,
I agree, rightly has scripture said “Do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.”I believe our responsibility ends with presenting truth and to continue “arguing” only plays into the hardhearted's hands. We can no more “prove” creation then Stu can evolution, where we place our faith will determine what we believe.
Wm
Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 24 2007,08:19) Stu When you cant come up with an intelligent answer you get sarcastic? There were Giants around whether you like it or not. Boy I thought you were smarter then that, then to give me such stupid answer. Got caught in your own web, did you?
OK. I'll stop the sarcasm. What on earth is the Judeo-Christian book of horrors on about this time? Giants? Are we talking about a different, extinct species of hominid? Are there skeletal or fossilised remains in a museum somewhere that I can look at?Put up your evidence please!
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 24 2007,10:59) Stu is blind, it is as simple as that. I was blind once too, and I know how dark the darkness is.
If he rejects the light, then he will never see correctly as to ascertain the truth.
It is as simple as that, and I personally wouldn't waste too much time on him. Our energy would be better spent helping those who actually want the truth.
Romans 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
t8 this is not a tacet admission on your behalf that actually there is no evidence for the creation myths you follow, no support for them in science and actually all you have is the bible, which utterly contradicts the observations we have made since it was written? Are you giving up the scientific arguments for creation as a lost cause beacuse you think you have won an argument? I can't remember the last time you made a valid point in support of your view. It has been repetition of the long-debunked argument from design. Accusations of blindness can go two ways. I am open to the possiblilty that there is a god, whilst you are not open to the possiblilty that there isn't. Who is blind?Stuart
Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 24 2007,12:39) T8,
I agree, rightly has scripture said “Do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.”I believe our responsibility ends with presenting truth and to continue “arguing” only plays into the hardhearted's hands. We can no more “prove” creation then Stu can evolution, where we place our faith will determine what we believe.
Wm
Re pearls, I know how you feel.Where you place your faith determines your view, the evidence I see determines mine.
Oink.
Stuart
Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 24 2007,12:39) T8,
I agree, rightly has scripture said “Do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.”I believe our responsibility ends with presenting truth and to continue “arguing” only plays into the hardhearted's hands. We can no more “prove” creation then Stu can evolution, where we place our faith will determine what we believe.
Wm
I agree.That is why I am not giving him any lest he trample them and opens himself to a greater judgement.
I am demonstrating to him why it is the fool that says “there is no God”. I know it is wise to not give him anything but what he has already been given.
I also don't mind showing his argument up for what it is, in order to submit it to Christ and let the light make it visible. I feel this is useful because his opinions are shared by many in the world and it could be quite relevant to some who read here.
Many are deceived by scientific details and in all that detail, they cannot see the obvious flaw in their belief system that says, “everything came from nothing”. Such a notion is foolish and I think it needs to be shown as such.
Details about the Big Bang, and the time periods involved are but smoke screens from the real question, “how nothing can spawn something, even everything”. Until he is able to give me an answer to how nothing can create something, debating with him in other areas is indeed a debate in vain.
Thanks seekingtruth, I await an explanation from him as to how nothing can spawn anything.
It is a shame to see the initiator of the thread on evolution reduced to deism, all his other challenges utterly answered with simple empiricism and without any need for non-existant imaginary creators. On the subject of matter from nothing, we are equal in our power to explain, except that my attempt (which he seems to have forgotten about) gives a more straightforward answer than his. I have also stated before that I don't know what there was before the Big Bang, and as far as I know, neither does anyone else, religious or not.
It is pretty easy to throw around phrases like “obvious flaw” and “Such a notion is foolish” if you never bother to actually say why. I would have thought matter from nothing was a simple thing to happily believe for one who seriously claims the mythology that the first female was produced from a man's rib, that a flood covered the whole planet and that a man lived after his own death, but here we see again the peculiar habit humans have to make special pleading for the most ridiculous beliefs while denying with passion things which are well demonstrated to have happened. As for “the fool [that] says”, well that sums up the logical case for biblical creation nicely. No evidence, just insults.
Stuart
Stu.
If you can explain how nothing, (absolute nothing) can create something, then I am all ears. Otherwise you have nothing useful to offer regarding your belief that nothing created the universe.
I think that is fair.
Let's start from here. If you can answer that, then we can move onto the other stuff. If you cannot, then you are just wasting everyone's time because a faulty foundation is a waste of time to build anything on top of.
If you think about it, I am sure you can see that this is the wise thing to do.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2007,10:18) Stu. If you can explain how nothing, (absolute nothing) can create something, then I am all ears. Otherwise you have nothing useful to offer regarding your belief that nothing created the universe.
I think that is fair.
Let's start from here. If you can answer that, then we can move onto the other stuff. If you cannot, then you are just wasting everyone's time because a faulty foundation is a waste of time to build anything on top of.
If you think about it, I am sure you can see that this is the wise thing to do.
Professor t8, we are still waiting for your exposition on the Theory of Divine Creation, complete with the details comparable to those give by (imperfect) science. Or, are you in thrall of the reasoning that says the scientists can't explain it, therefore god did it – no further explanation needed?By your logic above, if you can't explain the details of the separation of baryons and antibaryons then you creator's designs are simply not worth talking about.
Stuart
In otherwords Stu, what you believe in is a type of faith. It is by this faith that you believe that nothing created everything. You have no proof and yet you just choose to believe it anyway. So you are religious. Your religion is that nothing is the creator. Nothing is the source. Nothing was before the beginning.
I believe that someone made everything. Even from a scientific theoretical point of view, it is much more plausible. But then I have my proof too. It is the relationship I have with the creator. Something that I cannot prove to you and wouldn't want to either.
Someone vs nothing.
I know which one is more viable. And I know that God exists anyway, even putting aside where to place my bet based on likelihood.
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