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Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2013,04:41) Wakeup, My question still stands unanswered. It is:
Quote So you are claiming it was either during the time of after time the Word was made flesh that he became God's Son. Who was he before that time? I am asking for his relationship to God.
As for your additional words, I am not denying that “know” is a past tense English word but I am pointing out that it does not tell you anything about the present or the future. That name could at times called present and future be known only to Jesus and Jehovah or to all creation as well as the Creator. In either case we are not told in that passage. We are also the name is.
kerwin.Read:
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father:
and **NO MAN KNOWETH* WHO THE SON IS**, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son,
**AND HE TO WHOM THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM**.
**SO THOSE FEW WILL KNOW WHO HE IS**.
*NOW AND LATER AND FOREVER*.Your question's answer:
The man Jesus is the son of God.
Before his birth;he was the Word of God.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 07 2013,21:14) QUESTION TO ALL:
You believe that without the Word; nothing was made that was made.
WHO CREATED JESUS?
Do you believe God created ALL THINGS in heaven?Isn't God one of the things in heaven? Did He create Himself?
No. The LOGICAL conclusion is that all things in heaven – EXCEPT FOR GOD HIMSELF – were created by God.
Similarly, the LOGICAL conclusion to your perceived dilemma is that all things – EXCEPT THE WORD HIMSELF – were created through the Word.
Oh, and the answer to your question is “God”. God created the Word/Jesus.
Quote Do you believe God created ALL THINGS in heaven? Isn't God one of the things in heaven? Did He create Himself?
No. The LOGICAL conclusion is that all things in heaven – EXCEPT FOR GOD HIMSELF – were created by God.
Similarly, the LOGICAL conclusion to your perceived dilemma is that all things – EXCEPT THE WORD HIMSELF – were created through the Word.
Oh, and the answer to your question is “God”. God created the Word/Jesus.
Hence the terms “only-begotten” and “firstborn.”
The Son is “only-begotten” because he is the ONLY creation of the Father which He did personally. All other things were created by God THROUGH the Son.
“Firstborn” because the Son is the very first creation with many more to follow.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,12:38) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 07 2013,21:14) QUESTION TO ALL:
You believe that without the Word; nothing was made that was made.
WHO CREATED JESUS?
Do you believe God created ALL THINGS in heaven?Isn't God one of the things in heaven? Did He create Himself?
No. The LOGICAL conclusion is that all things in heaven – EXCEPT FOR GOD HIMSELF – were created by God.
Similarly, the LOGICAL conclusion to your perceived dilemma is that all things – EXCEPT THE WORD HIMSELF – were created through the Word.
Oh, and the answer to your question is “God”. God created the Word/Jesus.
Mikeb.1.When God was: He had his Word inside him.
2.Before the beginning He did not say a thing.
Nothing was made.There was silence. No traffic.
3.In the *BEGINNING* He spoke out His Word.
4.Heavenly creatures were made;one of the first was the
Son of the morning. (morning/symbolic),he was made
early. The early morning production.
5.Some time has lapsed,MUCH TIME,has lapsed.
6.The earth and man was created. LET US CREATE—
*US* are God and his living Word. The same that is coming
back in rev.19:12.13.(the Word of God).
7.The same that is sitting next to God.
8.The same that spoke to Abraham.
9. The same that spoke to Moses.
10.The same that was called Melchisedec.
11.The same that was made flesh.
12.The same that was BORN AGAIN.
13.The same that was taken up into the clouds.
14.The same that left his Words behind for our food.
15. His food is the Father;and our food is his flesh.When we are resurrected;our names wont be the same.
There will be no Bob nor jack,even Peters name.wakeup.
Quote (tigger2 @ Dec. 11 2013,20:09) Quote Do you believe God created ALL THINGS in heaven? Isn't God one of the things in heaven? Did He create Himself?
No. The LOGICAL conclusion is that all things in heaven – EXCEPT FOR GOD HIMSELF – were created by God.
Similarly, the LOGICAL conclusion to your perceived dilemma is that all things – EXCEPT THE WORD HIMSELF – were created through the Word.
Oh, and the answer to your question is “God”. God created the Word/Jesus.
Hence the terms “only-begotten” and “firstborn.”
The Son is “only-begotten” because he is the ONLY creation of the Father which He did personally. All other things were created by God THROUGH the Son.
“Firstborn” because the Son is the very first creation with many more to follow.
Jesus was also “the beginning of the creation by God”. (Revelation 3:14)So many things to point us to the fact that Jesus was the first thing God ever brought forth into existence – and yet so many people refuse to believe them.
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 11 2013,20:18) When God was: He had his Word inside him
Wakeup,I can't read your conjecture in the scriptures. I can't read that the Word who became flesh “used to be inside of God”, or that he “used to be God”.
I can read that Jesus is called a god in at least five different scriptures. And I can read that Jesus is the Word who became flesh.
So with only those two simple scriptural teachings, I can easily figure out that Jesus was a god who was with THE God in the beginning.
And, if I add all these following comparisons, it becomes a no-brainer:
The italicized words below are things said about “the Word” in John 1. The scriptures listed in parenthesis identify some of the places in scripture where those same exact things are said about Jesus.
1. And the Word was a god: (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)
2. He was with God in the beginning: (John 17:5)
3. All things were made through him: (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)
4. In him was life, and that life was the light of men: (John 5:26, John 8:12)
5. The light shines in the darkness: (Matthew 4:16; John 3:19; 2 Corinthians 4:6)
6. John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concerning that light: (John 1:29-34; 3:26; 5:32-36)
7. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world: (Isaiah 42:6-7; John 3:19, 9:5, 12:35-36, 46; Luke 1:78-79)
8. Though he was in the world, the world did not recognize him: (Isaiah 53:3, John 4:10, Acts 13:27, John 12:37-38, 1 John 3:1)
9. He came to that which was his own: (Col 1:16; Matt 11:27; John 3:35, 13:3, 16:15; Eph 1:10; Heb 1:2)
10. but his own did not receive him: (Luke 9:53; John 5:43; Acts 13:46)
11. to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God: (Acts 4:12; John 3:14-16; Gal 3:26; Heb 2:10; Eph 1:5)
12. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us: (1 John 1:1-2, 4:2; Phil 2:6-7; Rom 8:3; Gal 4:4-5)
13. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten: (John 1:18, 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9)
14. who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.: (John 1:16, 14:6; Luke 2:40; Romans 1:5)
15. John testified concerning him.: (Mark 1:7-8; John 1:32, 34; John 3:26; John 5:32-33; John 10:41)
16. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”: (John 1:29-30; John 3:28,30; Micah 5:2; Acts 19:4)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2013,12:29) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 11 2013,20:18) When God was: He had his Word inside him
Wakeup,I can't read your conjecture in the scriptures. I can't read that the Word who became flesh “used to be inside of God”, or that he “used to be God”.
I can read that Jesus is called a god in at least five different scriptures. And I can read that Jesus is the Word who became flesh.
So with only those two simple scriptural teachings, I can easily figure out that Jesus was a god who was with THE God in the beginning.
And, if I add all these following comparisons, it becomes a no-brainer:
The italicized words below are things said about “the Word” in John 1. The scriptures listed in parenthesis identify some of the places in scripture where those same exact things are said about Jesus.
1. And the Word was a god: (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)
2. He was with God in the beginning: (John 17:5)
3. All things were made through him: (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)
4. In him was life, and that life was the light of men: (John 5:26, John 8:12)
5. The light shines in the darkness: (Matthew 4:16; John 3:19; 2 Corinthians 4:6)
6. John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concerning that light: (John 1:29-34; 3:26; 5:32-36)
7. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world: (Isaiah 42:6-7; John 3:19, 9:5, 12:35-36, 46; Luke 1:78-79)
8. Though he was in the world, the world did not recognize him: (Isaiah 53:3, John 4:10, Acts 13:27, John 12:37-38, 1 John 3:1)
9. He came to that which was his own: (Col 1:16; Matt 11:27; John 3:35, 13:3, 16:15; Eph 1:10; Heb 1:2)
10. but his own did not receive him: (Luke 9:53; John 5:43; Acts 13:46)
11. to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God: (Acts 4:12; John 3:14-16; Gal 3:26; Heb 2:10; Eph 1:5)
12. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us: (1 John 1:1-2, 4:2; Phil 2:6-7; Rom 8:3; Gal 4:4-5)
13. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten: (John 1:18, 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9)
14. who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.: (John 1:16, 14:6; Luke 2:40; Romans 1:5)
15. John testified concerning him.: (Mark 1:7-8; John 1:32, 34; John 3:26; John 5:32-33; John 10:41)
16. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”: (John 1:29-30; John 3:28,30; Micah 5:2; Acts 19:4)
Mikeb.God is a *living* spirit; there is NO other living spirit next to God.
His Word is also a *living Spirit*.
The Holy spirit is also a *living spirit*,
For He is our teacher.
The truth is a living spirit.
Love is a living spirit.
Evil is a living spirit that is in satan.God's living Word was transformed;
From one existence(spirit) to another existence(flesh).
Jesus was a living person with a character and a mind,the mind of God;which he was before: also with his own character and a mind.
The character and mind of God. Because He is the split image of God.We also should have the mind of Jesus,the split image of Jesus,as much as possible.
Jesus/the Word is now spirit in heaven: and his image is also on earth;which are in the true worshippers.
We are also the Word of God in the flesh.We preach God.
We,also will be changed into spirit as He was.
This is how it should be; but unfortunately only a few
can fit in this picture.Confused?
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 10 2013,04:50) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2013,04:41) Wakeup, My question still stands unanswered. It is:
Quote So you are claiming it was either during the time of after time the Word was made flesh that he became God's Son. Who was he before that time? I am asking for his relationship to God.
As for your additional words, I am not denying that “know” is a past tense English word but I am pointing out that it does not tell you anything about the present or the future. That name could at times called present and future be known only to Jesus and Jehovah or to all creation as well as the Creator. In either case we are not told in that passage. We are also the name is.
kerwin.Read:
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father:
and **NO MAN KNOWETH* WHO THE SON IS**, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son,
**AND HE TO WHOM THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM**.
**SO THOSE FEW WILL KNOW WHO HE IS**.
*NOW AND LATER AND FOREVER*.Your question's answer:
The man Jesus is the son of God.
Before his birth;he was the Word of God.wakeup.
Wakeup,The man Jesus existed in the form of earth and breath his conception. It is God's breath that gives existence to the human soul and animates the human body. Jesus is a human and was created equal to his brothers and a little lower than the angels.
The word is that which comes out of God's mouth and was among the first of God's works for without nothing would be created that is created. It is with God because it is his word and it is God because it pleased God to put all his fullness in it. It is treated like a being in Scripture for teaching purposes but it not a being.
The word became Jesus the human. It did not do that by being transformed into him as that would defeat God's purpose. Instead it became him by being placed in his soul and written on his spirit.
Note: I just noticed my first sentence can be confusing. Jesus as earth and breath before his conception just like Adam did.
Quote (tigger2 @ Dec. 12 2013,13:09) Quote Do you believe God created ALL THINGS in heaven? Isn't God one of the things in heaven? Did He create Himself?
No. The LOGICAL conclusion is that all things in heaven – EXCEPT FOR GOD HIMSELF – were created by God.
Similarly, the LOGICAL conclusion to your perceived dilemma is that all things – EXCEPT THE WORD HIMSELF – were created through the Word.
Oh, and the answer to your question is “God”. God created the Word/Jesus.
Hence the terms “only-begotten” and “firstborn.”
The Son is “only-begotten” because he is the ONLY creation of the Father which He did personally. All other things were created by God THROUGH the Son.
“Firstborn” because the Son is the very first creation with many more to follow.
Tigger2.What was made flesh and dwelleth amongst men?
Was it Micha'el the angel?
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 13 2013,05:24) God's living Word was transformed;
From one existence(spirit) to another existence(flesh).
So then, for the 33 years God's Word was a flesh man on earth, God couldn't talk at all?
To answer the question you asked: YES, I am very confused by your interpretation of the teaching of John 1.
Your claim is that Jesus “used to be God” – but then became “not God”.
And that, my friend, is simply too much.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2013,20:38)
No. The LOGICAL conclusion is that all things in heaven – EXCEPT FOR GOD HIMSELF – were created by God.Similarly, the LOGICAL conclusion to your perceived dilemma is that all things – EXCEPT THE WORD HIMSELF – were created through the Word.
But wait a minute… If God created “all things” through “the Word”, and Jesus “the Word” was created by God, then “all things” were not created through the Word.You have the dilemma because the scriptures say…
New International Version
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.New Living Translation
God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.English Standard Version
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.New American Standard Bible
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.King James Bible
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Holman Christian Standard Bible
All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.International Standard Version
Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.NET Bible
All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been createdand apart from him “NOT ONE THING” was created that has been created..
If apart from Jesus “NOT ONE THING WAS CREATED THAT HAS BEEN CREATED” then Jesus could not have been created as you say!
So If the Father created Jesus as you say then you make the scriptures into a lie.
Not only that but the next scripture says “in him was Life”….
The net says…
6tn Or “made”; Grk “nothing came into existence.”
7tc There is a major punctuation problem here: Should this relative clause go with v. 3 or v. 4? The earliest mss have no punctuation (Ì66,75* א* A B Δ al). Many of the later mss which do have punctuation place it before the phrase, thus putting it with v. 4 (Ì75c C D L Ws 050* pc). NA25 placed the phrase in v. 3; NA26 moved the words to the beginning of v. 4. In a detailed article K. Aland defended the change (“Eine Untersuchung zu Johannes 1, 3-4. Über die Bedeutung eines Punktes,” ZNW 59 [1968]: 174-209). He sought to prove that the attribution of ὃ γέγονεν (}o gegonen) to v. 3 began to be carried out in the 4th century in the Greek church. This came out of the Arian controversy, and was intended as a safeguard for doctrine. The change was unknown in the West. Aland is probably correct in affirming that the phrase was attached to v. 4 by the Gnostics and the Eastern Church; only when the Arians began to use the phrase was it attached to v. 3. But this does not rule out the possibility that, by moving the words from v. 4 to v. 3, one is restoring the original reading. Understanding the words as part of v. 3 is natural and adds to the emphasis which is built up there, while it also gives a terse, forceful statement in v. 4. On the other hand, taking the phrase ὃ γέγονεν with v. 4 gives a complicated expression: C. K. Barrett says that both ways of understanding v. 4 with ὃ γέγονεν included “are almost impossibly clumsy” (St. John, 157): “That which came into being – in it the Word was life”; “That which came into being – in the Word was its life.” The following stylistic points should be noted in the solution of this problem: (1) John frequently starts sentences with ἐν (en); (2) he repeats frequently (“nothing was created that has been created”); (3) 5:26 and 6:53 both give a sense similar to v. 4 if it is understood without the phrase; (4) it makes far better Johannine sense to say that in the Word was life than to say that the created universe (what was made, ὃ γέγονεν) was life in him. In conclusion, the phrase is best taken with v. 3. Schnackenburg, Barrett, Carson, Haenchen, Morris, KJV, and NIV concur (against Brown, Beasley-Murray, and NEB). The arguments of R. Schnackenburg, St. John, 1:239-40, are particularly persuasive.
tn Or “made”; Grk “that has come into existence.”
8tn John uses ζωή (zwh) 37 times: 17 times it occurs with αἰώνιος (aiwnios), and in the remaining occurrences outside the prologue it is clear from context that “eternal” life is meant. The two uses in 1:4, if they do not refer to “eternal” life, would be the only exceptions. (Also 1 John uses ζωή 13 times, always of “eternal” life.)
sn An allusion to Ps 36:9, which gives significant OT background: “For with you is the fountain of life; In your light we see light.” In later Judaism, Bar 4:2 expresses a similar idea. Life, especially eternal life, will become one of the major themes of John’s Gospel.So just as the Father did not come into existence, Jesus “the Eternal Life” (1 John 1:1-3) that was with the Father also is not one that came into existence or you make the scriptures into a lie.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 14 2013,11:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2013,20:38)
No. The LOGICAL conclusion is that all things in heaven – EXCEPT FOR GOD HIMSELF – were created by God.Similarly, the LOGICAL conclusion to your perceived dilemma is that all things – EXCEPT THE WORD HIMSELF – were created through the Word.
But wait a minute… If God created “all things” through “the Word”, and Jesus “the Word” was created by God, then “all things” were not created through the Word.
I have the same “dilemma” you have when you read the following:Revelation 4:11
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”Well, God is one of the “ALL things” that exist, right? Was “God” created by “God”?
Or does it mean, “all things, EXCEPT FOR GOD, were created by God”?
Which one?
Oh, and as a side note, since the Lamb is NOT the one who created “all things”, he has no choice but to BE one of the “all things” created BY God.
I have compiled a list of 8 different scriptures, in which Jesus is listed as someone OTHER THAN the one who created all things in heaven and on earth. And since he is someone OTHER THAN the one who created all those things, he has no choice but to BE one of the things created BY that one.
Happy hunting in your other forums, Keith. Because the Trinity is dead in this one.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 15 2013,04:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2013,20:38)
No. The LOGICAL conclusion is that all things in heaven – EXCEPT FOR GOD HIMSELF – were created by God.Similarly, the LOGICAL conclusion to your perceived dilemma is that all things – EXCEPT THE WORD HIMSELF – were created through the Word.
But wait a minute… If God created “all things” through “the Word”, and Jesus “the Word” was created by God, then “all things” were not created through the Word.You have the dilemma because the scriptures say…
New International Version
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.New Living Translation
God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.English Standard Version
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.New American Standard Bible
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.King James Bible
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Holman Christian Standard Bible
All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.International Standard Version
Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.NET Bible
All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been createdand apart from him “NOT ONE THING” was created that has been created..
If apart from Jesus “NOT ONE THING WAS CREATED THAT HAS BEEN CREATED” then Jesus could not have been created as you say!
So If the Father created Jesus as you say then you make the scriptures into a lie.
Not only that but the next scripture says “in him was Life”….
The net says…
6tn Or “made”; Grk “nothing came into existence.”
7tc There is a major punctuation problem here: Should this relative clause go with v. 3 or v. 4? The earliest mss have no punctuation (Ì66,75* א* A B Δ al). Many of the later mss which do have punctuation place it before the phrase, thus putting it with v. 4 (Ì75c C D L Ws 050* pc). NA25 placed the phrase in v. 3; NA26 moved the words to the beginning of v. 4. In a detailed article K. Aland defended the change (“Eine Untersuchung zu Johannes 1, 3-4. Über die Bedeutung eines Punktes,” ZNW 59 [1968]: 174-209). He sought to prove that the attribution of ὃ γέγονεν (}o gegonen) to v. 3 began to be carried out in the 4th century in the Greek church. This came out of the Arian controversy, and was intended as a safeguard for doctrine. The change was unknown in the West. Aland is probably correct in affirming that the phrase was attached to v. 4 by the Gnostics and the Eastern Church; only when the Arians began to use the phrase was it attached to v. 3. But this does not rule out the possibility that, by moving the words from v. 4 to v. 3, one is restoring the original reading. Understanding the words as part of v. 3 is natural and adds to the emphasis which is built up there, while it also gives a terse, forceful statement in v. 4. On the other hand, taking the phrase ὃ γέγονεν with v. 4 gives a complicated expression: C. K. Barrett says that both ways of understanding v. 4 with ὃ γέγονεν included “are almost impossibly clumsy” (St. John, 157): “That which came into being – in it the Word was life”; “That which came into being – in the Word was its life.” The following stylistic points should be noted in the solution of this problem: (1) John frequently starts sentences with ἐν (en); (2) he repeats frequently (“nothing was created that has been created”); (3) 5:26 and 6:53 both give a sense similar to v. 4 if it is understood without the phrase; (4) it makes far better Johannine sense to say that in the Word was life than to say that the created universe (what was made, ὃ γέγονεν) was life in him. In conclusion, the phrase is best taken with v. 3. Schnackenburg, Barrett, Carson, Haenchen, Morris, KJV, and NIV concur (against Brown, Beasley-Murray, and NEB). The arguments of R. Schnackenburg, St. John, 1:239-40, are particularly persuasive.
tn Or “made”; Grk “that has come into existence.”
8tn John uses ζωή (zwh) 37 times: 17 times it occurs with αἰώνιος (aiwnios), and in the remaining occurrences outside the prologue it is clear from context that “eternal” life is meant. The two uses in 1:4, if they do not refer to “eternal” life, would be the only exceptions. (Also 1 John uses ζωή 13 times, always of “eternal” life.)
sn An allusion to Ps 36:9, which gives significant OT background: “For with you is the fountain of life; In your light we see light.” In later Judaism, Bar 4:2 expresses a similar idea. Life, especially eternal life, will become one of the major themes of John’s Gospel.So just as the Father did not come into existence, Jesus “the Eternal Life” (1 John 1:1-3) that was with the Father also is not one that came into existence or you make the scriptures into a lie.
WJ
WJ.I agree.
The Word of God was not created; but He is the creator.
Creating in the name of God.wakeup.
At Heb. 2:8 we read: “8 ‘You have put all things in subjection under his feet.’ For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him.” – NASB.
But we know that the Father is not put under Jesus. In fact, it just so happens that this obvious understanding is commented on by Paul:
1 Corinthians 15:27 “For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, ‘All things are put in subjection,’ it is evident that He [the Father] is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him [the Son].” – NASB.
So clearly ‘all things’ is not to be taken literally in all cases, no matter how emphatically it is declared.
There are enough scriptures showing that the Son had a beginning to make the assertion that he did not clearly wrong.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 14 2013,23:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2013,20:38)
No. The LOGICAL conclusion is that all things in heaven – EXCEPT FOR GOD HIMSELF – were created by God.Similarly, the LOGICAL conclusion to your perceived dilemma is that all things – EXCEPT THE WORD HIMSELF – were created through the Word.
But wait a minute… If God created “all things” through “the Word”, and Jesus “the Word” was created by God, then “all things” were not created through the Word.You have the dilemma because the scriptures say…
New International Version
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.New Living Translation
God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.English Standard Version
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.New American Standard Bible
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.King James Bible
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Holman Christian Standard Bible
All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.International Standard Version
Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.NET Bible
All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been createdand apart from him “NOT ONE THING” was created that has been created..
If apart from Jesus “NOT ONE THING WAS CREATED THAT HAS BEEN CREATED” then Jesus could not have been created as you say!
So If the Father created Jesus as you say then you make the scriptures into a lie.
Not only that but the next scripture says “in him was Life”….
The net says…
6tn Or “made”; Grk “nothing came into existence.”
7tc There is a major punctuation problem here: Should this relative clause go with v. 3 or v. 4? The earliest mss have no punctuation (Ì66,75* א* A B Δ al). Many of the later mss which do have punctuation place it before the phrase, thus putting it with v. 4 (Ì75c C D L Ws 050* pc). NA25 placed the phrase in v. 3; NA26 moved the words to the beginning of v. 4. In a detailed article K. Aland defended the change (“Eine Untersuchung zu Johannes 1, 3-4. Über die Bedeutung eines Punktes,” ZNW 59 [1968]: 174-209). He sought to prove that the attribution of ὃ γέγονεν (}o gegonen) to v. 3 began to be carried out in the 4th century in the Greek church. This came out of the Arian controversy, and was intended as a safeguard for doctrine. The change was unknown in the West. Aland is probably correct in affirming that the phrase was attached to v. 4 by the Gnostics and the Eastern Church; only when the Arians began to use the phrase was it attached to v. 3. But this does not rule out the possibility that, by moving the words from v. 4 to v. 3, one is restoring the original reading. Understanding the words as part of v. 3 is natural and adds to the emphasis which is built up there, while it also gives a terse, forceful statement in v. 4. On the other hand, taking the phrase ὃ γέγονεν with v. 4 gives a complicated expression: C. K. Barrett says that both ways of understanding v. 4 with ὃ γέγονεν included “are almost impossibly clumsy” (St. John, 157): “That which came into being – in it the Word was life”; “That which came into being – in the Word was its life.” The following stylistic points should be noted in the solution of this problem: (1) John frequently starts sentences with ἐν (en); (2) he repeats frequently (“nothing was created that has been created”); (3) 5:26 and 6:53 both give a sense similar to v. 4 if it is understood without the phrase; (4) it makes far better Johannine sense to say that in the Word was life than to say that the created universe (what was made, ὃ γέγονεν) was life in him. In conclusion, the phrase is best taken with v. 3. Schnackenburg, Barrett, Carson, Haenchen, Morris, KJV, and NIV concur (against Brown, Beasley-Murray, and NEB). The arguments of R. Schnackenburg, St. John, 1:239-40, are particularly persuasive.
tn Or “made”; Grk “that has come into existence.”
8tn John uses ζωή (zwh) 37 times: 17 times it occurs with αἰώνιος (aiwnios), and in the remaining occurrences outside the prologue it is clear from context that “eternal” life is meant. The two uses in 1:4, if they do not refer to “eternal” life, would be the only exceptions. (Also 1 John uses ζωή 13 times, always of “eternal” life.)
sn An allusion to Ps 36:9, which gives significant OT background: “For with you is the fountain of life; In your light we see light.” In later Judaism, Bar 4:2 expresses a similar idea. Life, especially eternal life, will become one of the major themes of John’s Gospel.So just as the Father did not come into existence, Jesus “the Eternal Life” (1 John 1:1-3) that was with the Father also is not one that came into existence or you make the scriptures into a lie.
WJ
WJTo understand this in truth his ;yes GOD CREATED ALL THINGS ;THIS IS TRUE HE HIS THE TRUE CREATOR,
HIS FIRST CREATION BE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON “THE WORD”
THEN FROM HERE ON ;HE CREATED ALL THING THROUGH “THE WORD “HIS SON ,HIS FIRST CREATION ,
JUST AS ;GOD HIS THE “ALPHA AND OMEGA AND THE SON IS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA ;
BUT GOD IS FROM A MORE DISTANT ;THAN THE SON ,
Quote (tigger2 @ Dec. 15 2013,07:15) At Heb. 2:8 we read: “8 ‘You have put all things in subjection under his feet.’ For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him.” – NASB. But we know that the Father is not put under Jesus. In fact, it just so happens that this obvious understanding is commented on by Paul:
1 Corinthians 15:27 “For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, ‘All things are put in subjection,’ it is evident that He [the Father] is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him [the Son].” – NASB.
So clearly ‘all things’ is not to be taken literally in all cases, no matter how emphatically it is declared.
There are enough scriptures showing that the Son had a beginning to make the assertion that he did not clearly wrong.
Tigger2.Since you believe that the Word of God/Jesus is created.
Can you show the scriptures please?wakeup.
Tigger2.
Quote Since you believe that the Word of God/Jesus is created.
Can you show the scriptures please?wakeup.
Just the terms “Father” and “Son” shows that one existed before the other. Also the Son was an “only-begotten” before he came to earth – 1 John 4:9.
Col. 1:15 – “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” – NASB.
Rev. 3:14 – 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:” – NASB
Christians through the centuries have interpreted Prov. 8:22-30 as referring to the Son of God as a personified “Wisdom.” This scripture shows the creation of “Wisdom.”
Micah 5:2 – “But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah,
who are one of the little clans of Judah,
from you shall come forth for me
one who is to rule in Israel,
whose origin is from of old,
from ancient days.” – NRSV. cf. JB, NEB, REB, NAB, NIV, AT, Mo, RSV, NJB, Byington, and Young's.)The NIV Study Bible, in a footnote for Micah 5:2 explains: “origins…from of old. His beginnings were much earlier than his human birth.”
Quote (tigger2 @ Dec. 15 2013,07:57) Tigger2. Quote Since you believe that the Word of God/Jesus is created.
Can you show the scriptures please?wakeup.
Just the terms “Father” and “Son” shows that one existed before the other. Also the Son was an “only-begotten” before he came to earth – 1 John 4:9.
Col. 1:15 – “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” – NASB.
Rev. 3:14 – 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:” – NASB
Christians through the centuries have interpreted Prov. 8:22-30 as referring to the Son of God as a personified “Wisdom.” This scripture shows the creation of “Wisdom.”
Micah 5:2 – “But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah,
who are one of the little clans of Judah,
from you shall come forth for me
one who is to rule in Israel,
whose origin is from of old,
from ancient days.” – NRSV. cf. JB, NEB, REB, NAB, NIV, AT, Mo, RSV, NJB, Byington, and Young's.)The NIV Study Bible, in a footnote for Micah 5:2 explains: “origins…from of old. His beginnings were much earlier than his human birth.”
Tigger2.Thank you for responding so quickly.
Quote
Just the terms “Father” and “Son” shows that one existed before the other. Also the Son was an “only-begotten” before he came to earth – 1 John 4:9.YES;THE WORD MADE FLESH WAS AT HIS BIRTH.
THIS HAPPENED LATER.Quote
Col. 1:15 – “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” – NASB.1.JESUS WAS NOT THE FIRST BABY ON EARTH.
2.HE WAS THE FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD.
THE FIRST RESURRECTED.THE FIRST BORN AGAIN.Quote
Rev. 3:14 – 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:” – NASBWE KNOW THAT ADAM WAS THE FIRST MAN.
JESUS WAS THE FIRST CREATED IN A SPIRIT BODY.
THE FIRST RESURRECTED.ALL HIS BRETHREN WILL FOLLOW.Quote
Christians through the centuries have interpreted Prov. 8:22-30 as referring to the Son of God as a personified “Wisdom.” This scripture shows the creation of “Wisdom.”THERE WAS NO TIME WHEN GOD HAD NOT *HIS WORD*.
AND IN HIS WORD IS WISDOM,POWER,LOVE,THE HOLY SPIRIT,THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH.Quote
Micah 5:2 – “But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah,
who are one of the little clans of Judah,
from you shall come forth for me
one who is to rule in Israel,
whose origin is from of old,
from ancient days.” – NRSV. cf. JB, NEB, REB, NAB, NIV, AT, Mo, RSV, NJB, Byington, and Young's.)FROM OF OLD MEANING: IN **THE BEGINNING** WAS THE WORD. THERE WAS A BEGINNING WHEN GOD SPOKE OUT HIS WORD TO CREATE.(THE BEGINNING OF CREATION).
Quote
The NIV Study Bible, in a footnote for Micah 5:2 explains: “origins…from of old. His beginnings were much earlier than his human birth.”YES: HE WAS THE WORD THAT CREATED ALL THINGS.
THEN MADE FLESH.
IN THE FLESH STILL SPEAKING ON GOD'S BEHALF.wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 14 2013,01:05) Wakeup, The man Jesus existed in the form of earth and breath his conception. It is God's breath that gives existence to the human soul and animates the human body. Jesus is a human and was created equal to his brothers and a little lower than the angels.
The word is that which comes out of God's mouth and was among the first of God's works for without nothing would be created that is created. It is with God because it is his word and it is God because it pleased God to put all his fullness in it. It is treated like a being in Scripture for teaching purposes but it not a being.
The word became Jesus the human. It did not do that by being transformed into him as that would defeat God's purpose. Instead it became him by being placed in his soul and written on his spirit.
Note: I just noticed my first sentence can be confusing. Jesus as earth and breath before his conception just like Adam did.
Bumped to show added note.Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2013,01:54) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 14 2013,01:05) Wakeup, The man Jesus existed in the form of earth and breath his conception. It is God's breath that gives existence to the human soul and animates the human body. Jesus is a human and was created equal to his brothers and a little lower than the angels.
The word is that which comes out of God's mouth and was among the first of God's works for without nothing would be created that is created. It is with God because it is his word and it is God because it pleased God to put all his fullness in it. It is treated like a being in Scripture for teaching purposes but it not a being.
The word became Jesus the human. It did not do that by being transformed into him as that would defeat God's purpose. Instead it became him by being placed in his soul and written on his spirit.
Note: I just noticed my first sentence can be confusing. Jesus as earth and breath before his conception just like Adam did.
Bumped to show added note.
KBUMP OR NOT WHAT HE SAYS IS NOT TRUE PERIOD
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