Babylon and the Beast

[NickHassan]

I understand Dora.
The point I raised may be worth considering too. The new body is different. It is asexual[like angels Lk 20.36-excluding the archangels-Gen 6].
I wonder if husband and wife will be truly as one body as there is a sense of total unity between them in the Word that may find fuller expression then?These spiritual bodies will last 1000 years and then eternity.
Adam sinned and death entered the frame. We know that his body was of earth only so I suspect it was not like the man from heaven's body.But man lost close contact with the source of life and death ruled in his body destroying it.

[DORA]

at this point i am inclinded to believe that satan, devil, evil spirits pertain to the adversarial nature of flesh that works in darkness & separation from God…surely you could say that men's accusations against one another, his hatred, murder, violence against others in the name of God is like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour…the roaring lion calls for meat, identity, hunger, pain, & mating…these are flesh appetites; appetites that desire to devour flesh (lions are carnivours, ie, carnal)…the carnal man is what nailed Jesus to the cross…religious man's hatred in the name of God (the definition of satan is adversary & i guess you could say man is man's greatest adversary…they falsely accuse out of hatred & strife seeking to tear down others (hatred, which is murder)

it is taught that there is a devil behind all this & scripture is used to back it up, such as, we dont wrestle with flesh & blood…no, we dont…we are confronted with men's hatred, violence, etc (all spiritual in nature)…spiritual dominions, etc

if you have hatred or hostility in your heart the spirit of that atmosphere will manifest tangibly…the same for peace & love…in other words, it is a spiritual force that you can feel that is very oppresive & depressive or very uplifting & encouraging, depending on what is in the heart

devil means slanderer…it is man that slanders God by religion that misrepresents God & hatred that slanders the original purpose for which were created

satan, the devil, the evil one, evil spirits, are all spiritual forces that originate in the heart of man & are released into the air/atmosphere going to & fro in the earth & up & down in it

i fully understand that this will cause discomfort for the present doctrines that teach otherwise, but it is all written for us to seek…Jesus said, ask & we will recieve…”it is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter” (prov 25:2)

the flesh appetites are beastly in nature

[NickHassan]

Hi Dora,
As t8 says I am sure Satan is quite happy to remain anonymous. He can be much more effective that way.

To deny him is to contradict scripture Dora. Satan was given permission to hurt Job. Jesus was tempted by him. The book of Mark is full of the work of Jesus freeing those under his influence. Jesus spoke often of Him as a person as did Peter, James, Jude and John spoke of the evil one.

You cut yourself off from the body and the Spirit when you deny scripture. How can you resist him if you do not admit he exists, but that is what we are told to do.

Human nature is also evil and destructive. We hate and murder and kill. That does not remove the reality of the tempter who encourages sin.

Satan is thrown out of heaven. Jesus said he saw him fall from heaven. How can it be if he did not exist?

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,01:53)

I understand Dora. The point I raised may be worth considering too. The new body is different. It is asexual[like angels Lk 20.36-excluding the archangels-Gen 6]. I wonder if husband and wife will be truly as one body as there is a sense of total unity between them in the Word that may find fuller expression then?These spiritual bodies will last 1000 years and then eternity. Adam sinned and death entered the frame. We know that his body was of earth only so I suspect it was not like the man from heaven's body.But man lost close contact with the source of life and death ruled in his body destroying it.

you say you suspect that the 1st Adam's body was somehow different from the last Adam's…in what sense? was Jesus a man in the flesh or was he a spirit?

(1cor 15) says Jesus was made a quickening spirit & that he was the Lord from heaven…the correct understanding of that is that he was made Lord by God from heaven…Jesus is the hier of all creation…he restored life from death because he was anointed to do so by God…the scripture says, “your throne, given of God, is forever” (heb 1:8)…the way it was transliterated is not in line with the original transcripts, thus it is written incorrectly

the way Adam's body differs from Jesus' is that Adam wasnt begotten…Jesus is the only begotten son of God, which tells us by the prophesies concerning him that he was the hier of God…that means all things were made for him from the beginning & that includes Adam himself

Jesus was descended from Adam, the 1st son of God (luke 3:38), but Adam was not begotten…he had no mother or father…God formed him & gave him breath & he became a living soul…Jesus was born of a woman

in the beginning God took the woman out of man, but the last Adam was taken out of woman (man with a womb)

blessings & peace in Jesus' name

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,02:48)

Hi Dora, As t8 says I am sure Satan is quite happy to remain anonymous. He can be much more effective that way. To deny him is to contradict scripture Dora. Satan was given permission to hurt Job. Jesus was tempted by him. The book of Mark is full of the work of Jesus freeing those under his influence. Jesus spoke often of Him as a person as did Peter, James, Jude and John spoke of the evil one. You cut yourself off from the body and the Spirit when you deny scripture. How can you resist him if you do not admit he exists, but that is what we are told to do. Human nature is also evil and destructive. We hate and murder and kill. That does not remove the reality of the tempter who encourages sin. Satan is thrown out of heaven. Jesus said he saw him fall from heaven. How can it be if he did not exist?

I expected that reply from you, but the fact is that satan isnt anonymous…his identity is just misrepresented

there is understanding of all the things you named as evidence of a fallen angel who is called satan, but i am sure you would not hear it as you fear that you would be denying scripture

the tempter is lust…james tells us this…was Jesus tempted with lust? yes, because he was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin

believe me, i didnt just make this up in my mind…i have carefully searched the scriptures & asked for understanding with prayer & fasting…have you laid aside your own thoughts & devoted time to hearing from God on this or have you just accepted what is taught by casual observation?

yes, Jesus said he beheld satan fall as lightening from heaven…the word heaven is used in reference to the throne of God, but it is also used in reference to what paul described as wickedness in high places, prince of the power of the air, principalities, powers, etc, ie, spiritual dominion in the earth

to fall as lightening is an idiom denoting the swift judgement of God, which was accomplished when Jesus overcame the wilderness temptation…he pulled down strongholds & they were judged

much misunderstanding on many subjects included in doctrine is the result of faulty transliteration & western mentality…you are free to judge as you see

[NickHassan]

Hi Dora,
I think you misunderstand me.The Son of God was begotten in the beginning and had the greatest glory below the Father. He obeyed the wishes of his Father and humbled himself partaking of our natural flesh [Mary's egg] and God. Mary conceived him by the power of the Spirit. He was born of woman and made for a time less than the angels.He was not his body-that was his tent[2Cor 5].
He dwelled in flesh and was filled with the Spirit of His Father at his baptism. He had no physical advantages over us but could do supernatural things because of his sinlessness and faith in God. His flesh was exactly like ours and Adam's so we could follow him.He left his tent when he was killed and returned to it to be resurrected.
He became the man from heaven when he was raised into the heavenlies after his death and resurrection.

[DORA]

as for the anonymony of satan working to his advantage: how is that? if he is satan he wants to be glorified & thought of as a terror, & if he fits the reputation given to him, the fact that anyone would deny his reality would challenge him to prove himself

i think if he were actually the great terror & evil that is portrayed it wouldnt gratify him to be ignored…i have no fear of any evil being

the book of rev is symbolic & the dragon isnt “the devil”…the serpent & the dragon represent the workings of the occult in the nations that forget God

you dont have to hear me, but you may want to devote time to seeking this for yourself minus the influence of your own reasonings

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,03:04)

Hi Dora, I think you misunderstand me.The Son of God was begotten in the beginning and had the greatest glory below the Father. He obeyed the wishes of his Father and humbled himself partaking of our natural flesh [Mary's egg] and God. Mary conceived him by the power of the Spirit. He was born of woman and made for a time less than the angels.He was not his body-that was his tent[2Cor 5]. He dwelled in flesh and was filled with the Spirit of His Father at his baptism. He had no physical advantages over us but could do supernatural things because of his sinlessness and faith in God. His flesh was exactly like ours and Adam's so we could follow him.He left his tent when he was killed and returned to it to be resurrected. He became the man from heaven when he was raised into the heavenlies after his death and resurrection.

yes, i misunderstood…i somehow didnt see that you are trinity in doctrine…sorry

i hope you wont think i am a heretic if i say i was trinity but found it to be error…oneness also is based on incarnation which the scriptures dont teach

how was Jesus begotten in the beginning? who was his mother? if he was begotten that means he had a mother in heaven too because to be begotten is conception

please dont misunderstand me & think i am being contrary because i tell you what i believe & why…we are commanded to do so

blessings & peace in Jesus

[NickHassan]

Hi Dora,
I do not rely on reason but on the revelation of the Word of God. I know you love the Word.It is to this Love that I appeal to you.

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,03:40)

Hi Dora, I do not rely on reason but on the revelation of the Word of God. I know you love the Word.It is to this Love that I appeal to you.

ty, nick

it is in love of the word & sincere love for you that i also respond

[NickHassan]

Hi Dora,
If you love God you will love the Son. If you love the Son you will love his teachings and build you doctrines on them You will not deny or allegorise his teachings.

He spoke in allegories to the world but not his followers.

He taught about the real person of Satan.

[DORA]

i just reaized what you meant when you said you dont rely on reasoning…i will say this: none of us who love the truth believe we are influenced by our own reasonings, but when we accept any doctrine without devoting time to trying the spirits to see if they are God, we are susceptible to our own reasonings…it is just much easier than searching with all the heart

i meant no insult or accusation by admonishing you to pray & wait to be sue before you so quickly discard what i have recieved by earnest devotion to seeking…i have been seeking on this for 2 yrs giving my time & energy to it & forsaking the entertainment of the flesh as our time is short & the church is in a state of falling away without even realizing it

much love in Christ

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,04:04)

Hi Dora, If you love God you will love the Son. If you love the Son you will love his teachings and build you doctrines on them You will not deny or allegorise his teachings. He spoke in allegories to the world but not his followers. He taught about the real person of Satan.

my dear brother, peace in Jesus' name…i answered your question the best i could at this time…you will believe as you choose…be blessed in your endeavours

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,04:04)

Hi Dora, If you love God you will love the Son. If you love the Son you will love his teachings and build you doctrines on them You will not deny or allegorise his teachings. He spoke in allegories to the world but not his followers. He taught about the real person of Satan.

i will ask you: does my salvation depend on anything other than the blood? does it depend on me believing that satan is a fallen angel? i have said nothing that denies my love of Jesus or my Father in heaven

you may want to consider being quick to hear & slow to speak as you may be found to be pressing against the truth you so love

if you truly understood scripture you would know that Jesus used alagory himself…do you claim to fully understand all he spoke in parables? the disciples who walked with him didnt fully understand though Jesus explained until after the resurrection…according to what is written paul & peter did not walk in full agreement, yet they both recieved revelation

we know in part & no one has full revelation without all the members contributing

[NickHassan]

hi Dora,
The aim of the forum is to try to define revealed scriptural truth. That means everyone has to try to prove their beliefs if they bravely expose them here and to encourage honest searching by all
All of us bring our preconceptions and doctrinal residues from our cultural past. We find error in translation and bias and other stuff we didn't realise we were carrying with us.

What we hope at least to do is to define a basis for finding truth. An agreed way of discovering what God meant when he spoke through the Prophets and his Son and the followers of his Son.
Hopefully enough of us would be patient and honest enough to hang in for the long term and produce faith the would be valuable to us and the wider church.
It is hard road and few will choose it or hang in for the final results but if we serve the Master that is what he would want us to do.
We have achieved only little things so far but my dream is that at least we would agree on such a system that would help us all in these ways.
Do you understand?

[Human]

Nick,

Here is what Rotherams translation says about Revelation 1:1:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to point out unto his servants the things which must needs come to pass with speed,–and he shewed them by signs, sending through his messenger, unto his servant John;

Even if your translation does not say that, would you not agree that everything than John saw was signs and symbols?

You said that those elders are not kings and that they actually sing songs to kings. Is it TO kings or ABOUT kings? Look at a similar passage at John 17:3. Jesus prays to God and says that God has sent “Jesus Christ”. Is he talking about someone else or about himself?

Also why do you claim that Elijah went to heaven?

John 3:13 “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, [that is,] the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Before Jesus Christ, no one went to heaven.

This one also can give some light:

Matthew 11:11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

[NickHassan]

Hi Human, Interesting points.
Why would anyone use Rotherams translation.Is it special? Frankly I have not heard of it.
2Kings 2 11.” As they were walking together, suddenly a chariot of fire appeared and separated the two of them and Elijah went to heaven in a whirlwind” and Mal 4.5 says he will return.
Gen 5.24″ Enoch walked with God. then he was no more because God took him away”

If the 24 elders are not the Archangels where are they mentioned in the description of heaven in Rev 4?
The timing is at the start of the endtimes. Where does it say some men will go too heaven and some not? For example,are the leaders of the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles more equal than us in Christ and only they have access to heaven? You have already said none go to heaven but scripture seems to support 2
No I do not agree everything in Revelation was signs and symbols. Much of it is but much too is about future historical events and people. Would you say the same about Daniel. I think it is wrong to approach any scripture with a presumptive mindset. We should examine each word and line and look for clues as to what form it takes.
Why should Jesus not refer to himself by his name. How many times does he speak of himself as Son of Man or Son of God.Many, many times.

[NickHassan]

Hi Human,
Yeshua is the only one who has ascended. The others were taken. Perhaps that is the difference?
John the Baptist was a prophet of the OT. He was not saved by grace but was still under the Law I would think.The new covenant accepts evil violent gentiles who do not rely on the Law but the righteousness of Yeshua-who perfectly fulfilled the Law. Jesus is greater than John.

[NickHassan]

Yes Dora ,
We know in part but there is such a thing as truth and it behoves us as servants to seek it and defend it. It is not opinion and does not necessarily fit with human reason.

“My ways are not your ways ,my thoughts are not your thoughts”

We are not saved by our beliefs. We only need to believe in God and the Son of God to be able to be saved. After that we need to be transformed by a renewing of our minds and hearts and that is by truth.
Jesus said “My word is truth”
Hebrews 6 does not include Satan among the basics of Christian faith, but it is in the meat ,not the milk.
How can we teach safely or lead others to salvation unless we have knowledge that fits with WHAT IS REVEALED?

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,01:53)

I understand Dora. The point I raised may be worth considering too. The new body is different. It is asexual[like angels Lk 20.36-excluding the archangels-Gen 6]. I wonder if husband and wife will be truly as one body as there is a sense of total unity between them in the Word that may find fuller expression then?These spiritual bodies will last 1000 years and then eternity. Adam sinned and death entered the frame. We know that his body was of earth only so I suspect it was not like the man from heaven's body.But man lost close contact with the source of life and death ruled in his body destroying it.

NICK, I dont believe Jesus said we will be asexual…what he said is that we wont marry…we will be as the angels…in other words, we have a spirit body that will be released from the mortal into immortality, bc it is the flesh that sins

but in the fullness of time we will return to recieve our flesh body resurrected & that body will changed from mortal to immortal & there will be a new heaven & a new earth wherein dwells righteousness

we will still be male & female bodies but they & the earth will be changed

[Author]

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