Babylon and the Beast

[Human]

Nick,

It seems that you take symbols in Revelation literally.

Rev 1:1 …And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John.

What you said comes in conflict with the following:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Jesus was resurrected as a spirit not a fleshly body – 1 Corinth 15:45. His physical perfect body was given as a sacrifice for our sins. He cannot inherit the kingdom of God in flesh. Nor can he sit by God's (who is spirit) right hand in flesh. Hence, all his co-kings and co-priests are also spiritual creatures.

Paul spoke of two types of bodies:
1 Corinthians 15:44 there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You probably have noticed that those elders in Revelation sit on thrones and have crowns. A very good indication of kings, no? So who are kings that sit on thrones in God's kingdom?
Bible explains:
Revelation 5:9-10 Then they sang a new song, “You are worthy to receive the scroll and open its seals, because you were killed. And with your own blood you bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race. You let them become kings and serve God as priests, and they will rule on earth. [“over the earth” (Derby); “upon the earth” (NASB)].

They sit around God's throne – this clearly indicates that they are close to God in heaven. This shows that they cannot be in flesh. It is also supported in other places in Bible.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 06 2005,05:17)

Welcome MM, The only ones present in the 1000yr reign will be: Rev 20.4 ” I saw some thrones .Those who were sitting on them were empowered to pass judgement[1Cor 6.2-3] I also saw the spirits of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and the Word of God, those who had not worshiped the beast or it's image nor accepted it's mark on their foreheads or their hands They came to life again and reigned with Christ for 1000 yrs” And v8 ….the nations..” God will still be in heaven waiting for Christ to fully reign[1 Cor 15.22-28] After 1000yrs and the second resurrection and the final judgement there will be a new heavens and a new earth. God will dwell in the new Jerusalem on earth. There is no temple in the city but God [and the lamb]is the temple.[Rev 21]

OK Nick, now that we have established that it is Jesus Christ who alone will reign as King on earth for 1000yrs, look at the following verses:

Zechariah
9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

12 This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic.

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. (NIV)

17And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the (AG)King, the LORD of hosts, there will be (AH)no rain on them. (NASB)

Isaiah
15 See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For with fire and with his sword
the LORD will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the LORD .

17 “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst of [a] those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things-they will meet their end together,” declares the LORD .

18 “And I, because of their actions and their imaginations, am about to come and gather all nations and tongues, and they will come and see my glory.

19 “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations-to Tarshish, to the Libyans [c] and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. 20 And they will bring all your brothers, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the LORD -on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels,” says the LORD . “They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the LORD in ceremonially clean vessels. 21 And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites,” says the LORD .

Who is the LORD? It is Jesus Christ, you cannot read the Old Testament escatological prophecies about Him with an honest heart and escape that fact. He, the Father and the Holy Spirit is YHWH.

Blessings

[DORA]

to my understanding babylon is any occult influence (subtle or overt)…man's religions & indoctrinations are kin to cults bc thier influence is kin to brainwashing, which is fear & domination of the mind

the eden experience is symbolic as the book of revelation is symbolic (my opinion based on prayer & study) the serpent (also known as dragon) represents the occult…occult practices (occult = hidden knowledge) are accomplished by the spirit exercising its knowledge outside the governing of the spirit of God, which man was not given permission to do…the reasons are many

serpent means “to whisper enchantment”…another word for enchantment is wizard & sorcerer…the magicians practiced this in egypt in moses day & there are degrees of this…anything that involves the occult is related…it is my opinion based on this that eve was beguiled by her own lust to exercise her spirit in the hidden knowledge found in her own spirit outside the governing of the holy spirit

man spirit was breathed into him by God & is not independent of God's spirit, which is holy…what happened in eden brought separation & death because it severed the joining of God's spirit to man…Jesus said that he & the father were one…that is because there was no separation & they were fully joined in union…Jesus was fully governed by God's holy spirit

babylon is linked with baal & babel, which is confusion, ie, the occult…it represents the highest betrayal against God's spirit which is holy (set apart & completely transcending, ie, the only deity)…it is rebellion & stubborness, which is deliberate resistance to divine authority for which there is no law…divine authority is absolute, thus witchcraft & idolotry is satan

babylon, the red dragon, represent the nations being steeped in rebellion, which is witchcraft…the beast & the false prophet represent the occult

[DORA]

babylon is linked with baal & babel, which is confusion, ie, the occult…it represents the highest betrayal against God's spirit which is holy (set apart & completely transcending, ie, the only deity)…it is rebellion & stubborness, which is deliberate resistance to divine authority for which there is no law…divine authority is absolute, thus witchcraft & idolotry is satan = adversarial spirit

Jesus told the pharisees that they were children of the devil, the seed of the serpent, vipers…he was declaring that they were deliberately acting as adversaries of God…religion manifests itself as earthly, sensual & devilish because it is man's wisdom & it makes the word of God without effect (because it slanders God by misrepresenting Him)…a religious spirit seeks to dominate with subtlety, & is as poisonous to the spirit as a vipers bite…it is cold & deceptive but if stirred demonstrates itself with fury & rage

devil means “to slander”…satan means “to oppose as adversary”

the woman riding upon the dragon represents spiritual fornication which is witchcraft & idolotry…included in these 2 abominations is man-made religion because is has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof & the power thereof is God Himself

I pray this is understood

blessings & peace in His name

[NickHassan]

Hi Human,
My Rev 1.1[nasb] doesn't read the same as your version with no mention of signs. However we all know truth still is truth even if it is presented as signs and you need the help of the Spirit to discern what is allegorical or synonym and what is not.[2 Peter 1.20]Some ,however, twist these for their own purposes.
Read again the description of the elders in Revelation and you will see they are not kings or priests but they sing a song about the saved people who will be kings and priests.
Jesus body was taken from the cross and buried. He became alive in the spirit and visited those in 'prison'[1 peter3]and was resurrected in that same perishable and damaged body. But because such a body cannot enter heaven he was changed, and the imperishable put on over the perishable, while being taken up just as we who are alive at his return will be.[1 thess,1 cor 15]
Jesus had power to walk on the water before he died so his abilities in his old body when he appeared and vanished should not surprise us. Philip was also transported in his natural body after speaking with the eunuch.
Modem mouth. You do not yet to seem to grasp the work done in the Father's name and power. Jesus will rule with the Father at his right hand in power.[ps 110 ps2]It is essential to understand this.The Father is not the Son of the Father but they are united and one in purpose and vision. The Father will again be worshipped in Jerusalem as in the time of the temple, but the Father will be in heaven.
Wecome Dora. Your contributions add light.

[NickHassan]

Ps When god breathed life into us that did not make us holy.The Father gives us that breath-it does not stay part of Him.
The man from Heaven[Yeshua] has now a spiritual body and so do we when we are resurrected-we shall bear his image and so can inherit the Kingdom of God[1Cor 15]

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2005,21:32)

Ps When god breathed life into us that did not make us holy.The Father gives us that breath-it does not stay part of Him. The man from Heaven[Yeshua] has now a spiritual body and so do we when we are resurrected-we shall bear his image and so can inherit the Kingdom of God[1Cor 15]

very true & as you can see by what i wrote, i dont believe that either

i was referring to the fall…only God's favor attributes any holiness to any creature because only God is holy…He alone is Deity

through Messiah's righteousness we are made righteous (in right standing with God which gives us reconciliation & restoration of being joined again by spirit to our father who is Deity alone)

question: do you believe that Elijah is also a spiritual body as he was caught out in his flesh without seeing death…or do you think the mortal body put on immortality as taught by paul in (1cor 15)? do you agree that this mortal body will change & therefore not eliminated?

i know that flesh & blood will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, but the body will be resurrected & changed…this mortal will put on immortality

do you disagree that the same body that was in the tomb was resurrected because it never saw corruption? was Jesus a spirit when he told Thomas to put his hand in his wounds?

just asking

[NickHassan]

Hi Dora,
My opinion would be Elijah [and Enoch]would have to be given a heavenly body to put on over the earthly [like us]to enter heaven. Scripture does not say more.
Jesus proved to Thomas and the disciples that he was still in his original injured body. He showed them the wounds and ate with them. A spirit does not have a palpable body that needs food.
I do not believe all enjoy the benefits gained by the death and resurrection of Christ but only those reborn into Him. Do you agree?

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2005,21:32)

Ps When god breathed life into us that did not make us holy.The Father gives us that breath-it does not stay part of Him. The man from Heaven[Yeshua] has now a spiritual body and so do we when we are resurrected-we shall bear his image and so can inherit the Kingdom of God[1Cor 15]

thx for the welcome, Nick

I want to comment on God's breath, which He breathed into Adam…God's breath is His Spirit…when we are reconciled to God by being reborn dont you agree that we are joined to His Spirit? God's word is His inspiration given to holy men as they are moved by His Spirit, correct?

His word, logos, is His divine intellegence (wisdom) expressed…for God to speak He breathes forth His Spirit, thus His word is His breath…as His redeemed children we partake of His breath by partaking of His inspired word…we are illuminated & have become children of the day…(Gen 1:5) says that God called the “light” day…that light was not the sun or the seasons as they werent formed until day 4

that light also was not morning…the light that God separated from darkness is the light of Messiah…before God made anything He spoke the light into being…that light is God's express image & the purpose for all creation…all was made for the son (Messiah, anointed ONE) to inherit…it was predestined in God

everything God made was for the son, who was the light that was in God in the beginning, the logos…God is light & of His light is His express image, the beloved son

that doesnt mean that Messiah was with God in the beginning…it means that he was the purpose for all things…the son was predestined & there was a day that he was begotten, thus he had a beginning

the light was the anointing of the son…Jesus is Messiah (which means anointed one)…God created all things by the light & for the light, which was the predestined son…when Jesus was begotten the light, logos (word spoken in the beginning before anything was formed) was made flesh

(psalm2:7) “I (YVAH, the father) will declare a decree: the Lord (YVAH, the father) has said to me, you are my son; this day have I begotten you”

what was the decree that was declared? “light be”…how God spoke to the son was in His decree in the beginning…the son was His express image which God predestined…when Jesus was concieved & born was “the day” (the “light” is called day) he was begotten & the day he was begotten the word (logos, which was “light be”) was made flesh

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2005,23:04)

Hi Dora, My opinion would be Elijah [and Enoch]would have to be given a heavenly body to put on over the earthly [like us]to enter heaven. Scripture does not say more. Jesus proved to Thomas and the disciples that he was still in his original injured body. He showed them the wounds and ate with them. A spirit does not have a palpable body that needs food. I do not believe all enjoy the benefits gained by the death and resurrection of Christ but only those reborn into Him. Do you agree?

I absolutely agree that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin…the sin nature (devil) was destroyed by Jesus, ie, he came to destroy the devil

when we are reborn we are made new…we are a new creation & old things are passed away…we are bone of his bone & flesh of his flesh, but all who hold the truth in unrighteousness will fall into delusion where they will be held until the judgement

(romans 1:18) “for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness”…this speaks of the state of being reprobate, apostate…to be reprobate one must 1st fall from enlightenment so there is a state of doing despite to the spirit of grace

(heb 10:29) “how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the spirit of grace?”

to answer your question: absolutely there is no way to the father but through the son…without accepting His salvation there is no eternal life, but as many as accept him he has given the power to become the sons of God

[NickHassan]

Hi Dora,
Do you not believe in Satan, the roaring lion looking for someone to devour?
What does it mean to you to accept salvation? Intellectual assent or baptism followed by receiving the Spirit as shown in the Word?

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2005,23:04)

Hi Dora, My opinion would be Elijah [and Enoch]would have to be given a heavenly body to put on over the earthly [like us]to enter heaven. Scripture does not say more. Jesus proved to Thomas and the disciples that he was still in his original injured body. He showed them the wounds and ate with them. A spirit does not have a palpable body that needs food. I do not believe all enjoy the benefits gained by the death and resurrection of Christ but only those reborn into Him. Do you agree?

thx Nick

if Elijah & Enoch were given heavenly bodies “over” the earthly, what happened to the flesh? do you not agree that the flesh had to be changed but we change from being a child to becoming an adult body as well? the body isnt eliminated…it is changed

Jesus body never saw corruption even in death & it was raised…Jesus laid his life down & he took it back up…that life was the flesh body because he commended his spirit to God…is it not true that the apostles watched that same body ascend into the clouds until he was out of visual sight & the angel declared that he would return in like manner?

this is significant, because if Jesus was not fully saved, body & spirit, which as a whole is the soul, then niether are we…but he was & that same body is seated in heaven & will return in like manner as he went

of course, i may be wrong & the important thing is to find truth, amen?

blessings & peace in His name

[NickHassan]

Hi Dora,
We know the body is changed and the heavenly is put on over the natural-does that mean it replaces it? I am not sure. Don't know about children but since they can join the kingdom if they can come to him then I guess they would have adult heavenly bodies too.
Jesus died and only his physical body, the tent, remained on the cross to be taken down and buried. He came back to that body and was resurrected in the natural body which was taken up and changed.

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2005,23:47)

Hi Dora, Do you not believe in Satan, the roaring lion looking for someone to devour? What does it mean to you to accept salvation? Intellectual assent or baptism followed by receiving the Spirit as shown in the Word?

thx for asking, nick

what i believe about the identy of satan would be highly contriversial, but it is based solely on the written word of God, the 66 books of the Bible…I am still much in prayer about this but i will say that i dont beleive the scriptures indicate that satan was ever a holy angel of God

salvation is not & cannot be an intellectual ascent, as that is mysticism & gnosticism, which is antichrist…intellectual ascent is not accomplished by the Spirit of holiness, which is God…God cannot be known by the carnal reasonings & all spirit outside the protection of faith in the risen savior is carnal…the human spirit must be reborn to inherit eternal life & that is only accomplished by faith in the shed blood of Jesus & walking in righteousness, which is the fruit of salvation

we arent saved by works or good deeds, but faith without works is dead…even if we are baptised or spirit filled if we dont do what he says we are none of his…how can we call him Lord if we dont do what he says? he gave us the greatest commandment which is to love God with all our heart & soul…if we dont love our brother who we can see how can we love God who we cant see?

without the fruit of His love we are nothing even with all faith

yes, i believe in baptisms (water & spirit)

[DORA]

I am very interested in who the author of this site is…I see names associated with the site in the visions link, but there is no name given for the author of the site that I can find…may I ask who it is or who the denominational affiliation is?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The site author is t8. He has no denominational affiliation and I do not either. We belong to the body of Christ.
God knows those who are his.

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,00:23)

Hi, The site author is t8. He has no denominational affiliation and I do not either. We belong to the body of Christ. God knows those who are his.

yes, i know that God knows who are His…the word says for us to know them that labor among us & i just wondered because i like the site very much

[NickHassan]

Hi Dora,
We know Satan was among the sons of God in heaven[jb1-2]Does that mean he was one of them? I think so. The sons of God are also seen in gen 6 and Jb 38. I think they are the princes and the archangels and elders of revn.
We see him also accusing Joshua in Zech 3 and he is know as the accuser of the brethren in Revn.We know Michael ,the archangel treated hgim with a lot of respect[jude]
We see him also in Ez and Is .
What are your thoughts?

[DORA]

I believe you misunderstood what i meant by this statement: we change from being a child to becoming an adult body as well? the body isnt eliminated…it is changed

your answer was: We know the body is changed and the heavenly is put on over the natural-does that mean it replaces it? I am not sure. Don't know about children but since they can join the kingdom if they can come to him then I guess they would have adult heavenly bodies too.

i was likening the changing of the flesh body to the change that occurs in the natural as we change from being a child into an adult…the growth of a child in heaven has no significance to what i am saying i know i am hard to understand sometimes, sorry

here is the principle i'm talking about: when we are born our body is very different from when we become an adult, but we dont eliminate the body we started in because of growth…i suspect that this body will remain ours but it will no longer be subject to death after the resurrection…it will change from mortal to immortal

was Adam mortal? the scriptures seem to tell us that Adam was an immortal body although he was flesh, but he fell into death by sin & the fall changed his body as well as bringing the curse of death on all creation..what do you think?

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,00:50)

Hi Dora, We know Satan was among the sons of God in heaven[jb1-2]Does that mean he was one of them? I think so. The sons of God are also seen in gen 6 and Jb 38. I think they are the princes and the archangels and elders of revn. We see him also accusing Joshua in Zech 3 and he is know as the accuser of the brethren in Revn.We know Michael ,the archangel treated hgim with a lot of respect[jude] We see him also in Ez and Is . What are your thoughts?

I understand the theory of satan being a fallen angel of God…I dont believe angels are known as sons of God, but human messengers of God are often called angels because angel means “messenger”

I believe Adam & his descendants are the sons of God, ie, all humanity that honors God's covenants (in this age as well as past)

I know all the scriptures used to teach that satan was once a holy angel who rebelled…the problem is that angels dont rebell…they are spirit bodies…only flesh rebells & sins…it is flesh that has fallen from it's original intent, ie, habitation, which is favor with God (jude 6)…flesh has become corrupt through sin & death, but a spirit body, which angelic beings are, are incapable of sin…they are God's heavenly host sent as protectors over men & messengers from God, etc

the angels look on the face of God, whereas the face of God is hidden to men except for Jesus

you say you “know” satan was among the sons of God in heaven, but there is no clear scripture for that…there is theory based on mystery interpretation

for instance, lucifer was not even a name & never should have been capitalized as if it were…lucifer refers to the planet venus, the morning star…Isaiah used the metaphore of the morning star rising & falling in relation to the rise & fall of the king of babylon…the scripture about lucifer clearly tells us that the prophesy was about a man & not an angel as interpreted (isa 14:16)…if you take the word lucifer out & replace it with morning star the prophesy is made much clearer…the one who transliterated the book of Isaiah in the KJ was Jerome, a catholic priest & he mistransliterated it or used an inappropriate word…lucifer is taken from latin & not hebrew

i understand there is stiff resistance to this & there will be, but any sincere seeker of truth must take these things into consideration…i dont say there isnt a devil or satan because there is, but i dont believe the scriptures if searched fully supports a fallen angel theory

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