Attn anti-trinitarians: another us verse

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,11:48)

Hi TC,
Either way trinity is not found in the mouth of any of the divinely anointed teachers in the bible.
So by whose authority do you teach it?

Nick,

You still have not told me HOW I misinterpret that verse. Also, you keep saying that the word trinity is never found in the Bible. I NEVER SAID IT WAS. There are many doctrines that have a name that does not appear in the Bible. Why don't you fight all of those doctrines then to stay consistent?

Look, I love you in Christ, but I cannot agree with you.

TC27

June 30, 2009 at 7:56 pm#135435

Participant

Hi TC,
So it is not written.
But you can see it there between the lines?
It is safety to remain within the teachings of the bible [2jn9]

June 30, 2009 at 11:25 pm#135450

Participant

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 01 2009,07:55)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,11:48)

Hi TC,
Either way trinity is not found in the mouth of any of the divinely anointed teachers in the bible.
So by whose authority do you teach it?

Nick,

Look, I love you in Christ, but I cannot agree with you.

TC27

If you insist on consistancy, be consistant.

Why do you stop at a trinity?

God gave to Jesus, a revelation, which Jesus gave to John to publish to the saints. In that revelation, God revealed there are seven spirit of God;
Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

And God ties the seven spirits of God to the lamb and the throne of God. So, is God then 9 instead of 3?
Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Or does the lamb have seven spirit of God, plus the seven spirits that are OF God? Making 16 instead of 9?

It do get complicated don't it?

July 1, 2009 at 2:40 am#135466

Participant

Paladin,

That is the lamest argument for anti-trinitarianism I have ever heard. You and I both know that the Spirits being referred to in Revelation were angels.

TC27

July 1, 2009 at 2:53 am#135469

Participant

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 01 2009,07:55)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,11:48)

Hi TC,
Either way trinity is not found in the mouth of any of the divinely anointed teachers in the bible.
So by whose authority do you teach it?

Nick,

Look, I love you in Christ, but I cannot agree with you.

TC27

Hi TC,
What place do teachings not found in the bible have in the doctrines of the Body of Jesus Christ?

The bible is those doctrines.
Thy word is truth.

Cast aside the flimflam follies of men.

July 1, 2009 at 3:23 am#135473

Participant

Nick,

You severely misunderstand me. I am not talking about the doctrines. I am talking about the NAMES given to those doctrines. Man has given biblical principles a name as to clasify them. That is the only significance in the word trinity. It is just a word to classify a belief. You make too much out of a word.

TC27

July 1, 2009 at 3:55 am#135482

Participant

Hi TC,
So if the doctrine is in scripture where is it?
No mouthpiece for God said God is three.

God is one.

July 1, 2009 at 4:06 am#135484

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 01 2009,04:34)

Quote (Gene @ June 30 2009,08:11)

TC 27………..The wages of sin is death, GOD never sinned and He never died either, If GOD were to die all life would cease to exist. “For He upholds (ALL things) by the power of HIS might”. No my friend GOD never died. No where in scripture does it say He did die. It is amazing how man want to think GOD is like HIM and would come down and Himself die, Well if He did really die then who raised Him up from that death, was it himself , but if that were so then He could not have truly died right. Come out of Mystery religions and seek the truth , It was a (MAN) named Jesus the did truly DIE, and It was a GOD called the FATHER that raised HIM up FROM the GRAVE, making him the firstborn from the dead of all creation, Just like it says , so why try to change it, to meet a false and un-scriptural teaching. IMO

peace and love………………………….gene

Gene,

GOD did die. He died as Jesus Christ. Jesus was raised by the Father. God can do anything he wants to and if that means raising himself from the dead, who are you to say he cannot? You limit God to a human standard. A human cannot raise himself, but God can. Deal with it.

TC27

TC27………….a typical trinitarian trick, turn everythIng into a mystery when no proof can be given. Again i repeat GOD (CAN NOT DIE) IF HE WERE TO REALLY DIE ALL LIFE WOULD DIE ALSO. “UNTO US THERE IS BUT (ONE GOD), AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN (THE MAN) JESUS CHRIST”. notice it does not say the GOD Jesus Christ. wonder why?. WE also have Jesus own words “FOR (THOU) (SOMEONE OTHER THEN THE ONE SPEAKING ) ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. SEEMS JESUS DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THE TRINITY. WE also have GOD”S own word ” yopu shall have (NO) other God besides ME”. and also where He said He alone is GOD and there is (NO) other GOD. But you trinitarians seem to think you can just ignore these very basic and clear scriptures to support your mystery religions. IMO

peace and love………………………..gene

July 1, 2009 at 4:18 am#135489

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,19:55)

Hi TC,
So if the doctrine is in scripture where is it?
No mouthpiece for God said God is three.

God is one.

Nick,

You again are putting words in my mouth. I never said God is three. God is one. The Bible says that a man is to leave his household and become one flesh with his wife. Does this mean that they melt into each other as one cohesive bodily unit? NO. They are two seperate persons existing in ONE unit. (This is not exactly like the trinity but you see here that the word ONE is used to describe marriage between TWO people.)

TC27

July 1, 2009 at 4:20 am#135491

Participant

Hi TC,
So the Father and his Son are in agreed unity and God is in Christ as Spirit?
I can agree with that.

July 1, 2009 at 12:52 pm#135527

Participant

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 01 2009,14:40)

Paladin,

That is the lamest argument for anti-trinitarianism I have ever heard. You and I both know that the Spirits being referred to in Revelation were angels.

TC27

I am not speaking of “what everyone knows.”

I am speaking of “consistancy.”

YOU do NOT know know that the seven spirits of God are angels, because there are more than seven angels, AND the Spirit of God is always named as one of the trinity hierarchy; so if the seven spirits of God are angels, so must be the Spirit of God. If not, why not?

I am just showing you how silly the trinity position really is.

July 1, 2009 at 1:03 pm#135529

Participant

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 01 2009,16:18)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,19:55)

Hi TC,
So if the doctrine is in scripture where is it?
No mouthpiece for God said God is three.

God is one.

Nick,

TC27

There are three ways to be considered one.

1) One in agreement; united in goal.
2) One in number; i,e,. single in existence.
3) One in protocol, i,e., first, number one.

God is one in number.

God and Jesus are one in agreement. JUST AS Jesus and God and the disciples are one in agreement. [John 17:21]

God is number one in protocol, Jesus is “less than first, [Phil 2:6 ['uparxwn] = [upo + Arxee] = less than first.
[Note: for all those who require scholarly authority for everything, upo + arxee is 'uparxon = being = less than first, is found in “THE ANALYTICAL GREEK LEXICON” by Zondervan Publishing House; 1972.

July 1, 2009 at 1:10 pm#135530

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 30 2009,08:14)

Quote (Paladin @ June 30 2009,07:53)

Quote (thethinker @ June 30 2009,07:31)

TC27 said to Nick:

Quote

You keep saying that Jesus is lesser and that he serves the Father. However this passage in Philippians clearly states that Jesus had the choice to be unequal to God and because of that choice he was exalted by the Father. Now if Jesus had the power to choose such a position, how could he TRULY be lesser than God? In order to have the power to choose to be lesser he had to have been equal to God because God would not let something lesser shoose such a fate. Since there is only one God (which you and I can agree on) Jesus would have to be God to have that kind of power.

TC27,
Excellent post!! I never thought of that. Christ's choice to be lesser than God proves He was equal with God. Your logic is impeccable.

Well done!

thinker

If you will do a word study on “harpagmos” you will find it is used many times in the old testament in one form or another, and ALWAYS references force, robbery, rape, murder, and taking because of strength, not of right.

Jesus, being in a form of God, did not consider equality with God his by right of force. There is no question of equality by choice anywhere in the passage.

Paladin,
If what you say is true then Christ's “attitude” is not really exemplary. Paul calls on us to emulate Christ's example. I can do this only by giving up what is truly and properly mine. You just don't get it. Furthermore, you ignored Paul's use of the middle voice. Jesus acted upon HIMSELF. He made HIMSELF nothing.

TC's logic is impeccable. So face it man. TC hung Nick out to dry.

thinker

Because Greek has no past tense, there is often confusion as to what is being said when relating events that are in OUR past. It has aorist, a tense of accomplishment, but no past tense. Aorist tells us if a task or action was started (or in progress); or if it was completed at the time of the telling (Aorist 1 & Aorist 2); Or if it was taking place at the time of the telling (present tense); or if it was yet to be done at the time of writing (future tense).

Look to Paul's use of the Aorist, and the present, as he relates to us events in Philippians 2:5-6. The Greek indicates that the action was taking place while Jesus was a man; “in the form of God being” “being” is present tense.

The man Jesus, presently being in form of God, “himself emptied,” “emptied” is Aorist, which tells us the man had emptied himself before the writing of the account; or that the “emptying” was still going on, depending upon which Aorist is used, 1st or 2nd.

Did Jesus “empty” himself while a man, or at some prior time? Let us look to the scriptures for an account of Jesus
“emptying himself” while a man;

JESUS THE MAN WAS BORN TO BE KING: “Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.” [John 18:37]

BUT HE WAS NOT KING “OF THIS WORLD.” “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” -John 18:36

JESUS COULD HAVE COMMANDED ANGELS: “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?” [Mat 26:53]

BUT INSTEAD, JESUS “EMPTIES” HIMSELF TO SERVE OTHERS: “Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; 4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

PETER HAS NOT “EMPTIED” HIMSELF: 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet.

JESUS CAUSES PETER TO “EMPTY” HIMSELF: “Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

PETER “EMPTIES” HIMSELF ALSO: 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

JESUS TEACHES THE LESSON OF “EMPTYING” ONE'S SELF: 12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

TO “EMPTY” ONE'S SELF, YOU GO FROM BEING LORD: 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

TO BEING “FOOT SLAVE:” 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

IT WAS DONE FOR A PURPOSE: 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. [John 13:3-15]

Now follow Paul's application of this lesson as given in the Greek accounting of Jesus' example: “If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

DO NOT BE FULL OF YOURSELF: 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

BUT “EMPTY YOURSELF” 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, BEING in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (“BEING” IS PRESENT TENSE, IT IS THE MAN JESUS, IN THE HERE AND NOW OF HIS LIFE ON THIS EARTH)

JESUS THE MAN “EMPTIED” HIMSELF: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant,(served as servants do) and was made in the likeness of men: (Made in the likeness of men, as opposed to being made in the likeness of kings)

JESUS THE MAN HUMBLED HIMSELF TO THE POINT OF DEATH: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

GOD REWARDED THIS MAN'S OBEDIENCE: 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

IF JESUS WAS PREHISTORIC DEITY, DON'T YOU SUPPOSE HE ALREADY HAD A NAME ABOVE EVERY NAME? DON'T YOU THINK EVERY KNEE WOULD BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS ALREADY? AND DON'T YOU SUPPOSE HE WOULD GET THE GLORY, INSTEAD OF HIS FATHER?

JESUS WAS EXALTED, BUT THE GLORY WAS GOD'S BECAUSE IT WAS HIS PLAN THAT WAS PUT INTO EFFECT. AND HIS PROVISION THAT LET IT COME TO FRUIT
ION. PAUL IS SIMPLY REMINDING THE SAINTS OF CHRIST'S HUMILITY. HE IS NOT WRITING ABOUT A PREHISTORIC DEITY WHO GIVES UP DEITY TO BECOME A MAN: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; -[Phil 2:1-15]

I have learned to appreciate a concept when dealing with doctrinal explanation, that goes something like this… “How should God have said it, for me to understand it that way?”

To understand prehistoric deity emptying himself, Paul would have to use the Aorist tense, “having been in the form of God.” Paul used no such language.

July 1, 2009 at 1:20 pm#135531

Participant

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 01 2009,02:09)

Nick,

What good is the death of Jesus if all he was was a man and a vessel? If it was not God willingly sacrificing himself to pay for the sins of his people, then what good was his death? All he was then was a good man who was forced to do a good work. You diminish Jesus.

TC27

What value did Adam have as first sinner, as he was “only a man.” How can God hols all of mankind accountable for the sin of one?

THAT is precisely why one MAN can take qway our sin, as sacrifice, for sin. Which is EXACTLY what God says in Rom 5-

“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of ONE many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by ONE MAN, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by ONE MAN'S offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by ONE, JESUS CHRIST.
18 Therefore as by the OFFENCE OF ONE judgment came upon all men to condemnation even so by the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF ONE the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE many were made sinners, so by the OBEDIENCE OF ONE shall many be made righteous.” [Rom 5:14-19]

July 1, 2009 at 1:32 pm#135532

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,20:20)

Hi TC,
So the Father and his Son are in agreed unity and God is in Christ as Spirit?
I can agree with that.

Nick,

I never said that. I used it as an analogy, I even mentioned in my example that it wasn't exact. Stop putting words in my mouth.

TC27

July 1, 2009 at 3:27 pm#135541

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Hi Pd

Quote (Paladin @ July 01 2009,09:10)

Now all you have to do is figure out how he went from being “In very nature God” to “being made (ginomai) n human likeness, And being found in appearance as a man”…

Context shows that first he went from the “morphē” (form) of God to the “morphē” (form) of a servant (since God serves no one) and being found in fashion as a man, THEN he humbled himself…

The reading is clear and simple.

Can you maybe give us some scripture that says we are “in the form of God” or “in very nature God”, for if this was Pauls intent in these verses then why would he say… “there is no God but one”? For if Jesus is in very nature God that means he is God.

Remember the Father is “in very nature God” isn't he?

And dont forget that Paul also calls Jesus his “Great God and Saviour”.

BTW, why do you have to have all these oppologetics surrounding the scriptures? Why can't you just read them as they are?

Blessings WJ

July 1, 2009 at 5:51 pm#135561

KangarooJack

Participant

Gene said:

Quote

TC27………….Again i repeat GOD (CAN NOT DIE) IF HE WERE TO REALLY DIE ALL LIFE WOULD DIE ALSO.

Gene,
And I repeat: Hebrews 1 says that all things are held together by Christ's word. So by your own logic the universe should have collapsed when Christ died.

thinker

July 1, 2009 at 6:07 pm#135563

KangarooJack

Participant

Paladin said:

Quote

Paladin,
Please cite your source. You are wrong about the Greek aorist tense,

Quote

The function of the aorist is a matter of tremendous importance. The time of the action is past. The kind of action is punctiliar. Thus is observed the difference between the imperfect and the aorist. The imperfect indicates continuous action in past time (Essentials of New Testament Greek, Ray Summers, Broadman Press, p. 66)

You are essentially saying that the aorist and the imperfect function the same and they do not. The aorist does NOT speak of action “in progress” as you say. It indicates completed action in past time. What you are peddling is Paladinian Greek and not new testament Greek. Therefore, your entire commentary on Philippians 2 is blatantly false! Again, show your source.

thinker

July 1, 2009 at 6:09 pm#135565