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Would the crucifixion (and subsequent resurrection) of someone who was not fully-God be enough to pay for the sins of the whole world?
If God created all things through his Word and if Jesus was the Word made flesh, then yes.
If the Father is the vine dresser and if Jesus is the vine and we are the branches, then yes.
If the beginning of the creation of God and the firstborn of all creation laid his life down, then he could give life to all creation.
If death could come through 1 man, then how much more could life come through one sinless man.
It is impossible for God to take the sin of the world on himself. God cannot even look upon sin. If God did take the sin of the world on himself and he had to die (which is impossible) then there wouldn't be anything left. For all things and all life originates in the Father.
Too many people think that God is on one side and man on the other and God had to die and bring man back to himself. But that is really rediculous if you think about it. God has a mediator between himself and us, namely Christ Jesus. God through his mediator is redeeming men back to himself.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 1:4
In him was life, and that life was the light of men.John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.John 15:1
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.John 15:5
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.Quote (t8 @ June 30 2004,09:44) If God created all things through his Word and if Jesus was the Word made flesh, then yes. If the Father is the vine dresser and if Jesus is the vine and we are the branches, then yes.
If the beginning of the creation of God and the firstborn of all creation laid his life down, then he could give life to all creation.
If death could come through 1 man, then how much more could life come through one sinless man.
It is impossible for God to take the sin of the world on himself. God cannot even look upon sin. If God did take the sin of the world on himself and he had to die (which is impossible) then there wouldn't be anything left. For all things and all life originates in the Father.
Too many people think that God is on one side and man on the other and God had to die and bring man back to himself. But that is really rediculous if you think about it. God has a mediator between himself and us, namely Christ Jesus. God through his mediator is redeeming men back to himself.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 1:4
In him was life, and that life was the light of men.John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.John 15:1
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.John 15:5
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Hi again,I will stop soon and give you a bit of a break, then I hope to continue learning all the more.
I do exactly agree with what you said in this post, but I think there is an additional thought to add regarding what is an adequate or suitable sacrifice. The reason that one sinless human is an adequate sacrifice is because The Father accepted this. In the past, He declared what was acceptable whether it be a lamb, a dove or a lowly pigeon – all His choice – and Messiah's physical life seems enough for Him, so who are we to even question whether it is adequate?
Reality
Thx for your post Reality.
Yes if the blood of an animal can temporarily cover sins, then how much more will the blood of the son of God, (through whom ALL came), be enough to cover ALL. If all were created through him, then surely all can be redeemed though him too.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2004,01:43) Would the crucifixion (and subsequent resurrection) of someone who was not fully-God be enough to pay for the sins of the whole world?
Hi ,
How can a being be “fully God”?Does that mean one could also be partially God?
The Messiah is the Son of YHWH come in the flesh, not YHWH Himself.
He was filled with the Spirit of YHWH.
How could he be filled with himself?
Hi,
The sacrificial lamb is the perfect example given to God as a sin offering. That lamb is taken from among the many other imperfect lambs. So Jesus had to be a man like us to take our place as a sin offering. Some say only God could die to save us. Where does that bizarre logic come from? We are just invisible specks on a tiny earth in a huge universe in the natural world so why do we think we are so important that we imagine God had to die?Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2004,01:43) Would the crucifixion (and subsequent resurrection) of someone who was not fully-God be enough to pay for the sins of the whole world?
Hi Is 1.18
Youer question presupposes some things.It suggests that someone can be partly God.
It suggests only God's death can pay for man's sin.Can God die?
Is man so important that God needs to die?
Does God need to die for the sin of man?
Did not birds and animals die for the sin of man?Why is the Lamb of God, the Son of God , an insufficient sacrifice in your eyes?
Isn't the reason Jesus was our sacrifice was because men were exiled from God and need a way to be reconciled? God is holy and cannot fellowship with sinful man. It makes no sense that God personally takes on the sin that causes the exile in the first place.
Jesus is that mediator between God and man. The perfect sacrifice who is without sin and who reflects the image and radiance of his Father. The very same Father and God who cannot be in the presence of sin.
God cannot take the sins of the world on himself. It doesn't make any sense.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 29 2004,20:43) Would the crucifixion (and subsequent resurrection) of someone who was not fully-God be enough to pay for the sins of the whole world?
YES.Would the crucifixion (and subsequent resurrection) of someone who was not fully-God be enough to pay for the sins of the whole world?
YES. I cannot see how GOD who is immortal can die, if it was only the human part of God that died, then it is all a sham because what good does a pretend death do for us, for if Christ never died as God but only as man, how can we say he died at all, because he was really alive – evidently as God… if so why was he raised to life – how foolish is that notion – the God part was alive but the human part died, yet it was all the same, for you cannot split the essense or the 100% man/God. However if He was all man, born of God and therefore his Son, that died and one that lived a sinless life in obedience to the Father, it gives us hope in this life to live an more than abundant life.
What is it that saves us anyway… it is the blood, it is baptism, is it the Cross, is it his ressurection, is it obeying the words of Jesus, is it the imperishable seed which is the seed that Jesus sowed, is it believing that Jesus is the Son of God, is it believing he came in the flesh or is it just simple acceptance and acknowledgement that Jesus is Lordand God raised him from the dead that brings salvation.
Quote (Mercy @ Oct. 02 2006,11:02) Jesus is that mediator between God and man. The perfect sacrifice who is without sin and who reflects the image and radiance of his Father. The very same Father and God who cannot be in the presence of sin. God cannot take the sins of the world on himself. It doesn't make any sense.
Hi,I agree with your last statement – it is a foolish notion to say that God can be put to death for sin. A holy God with sin upon his life sounds like a fairy tale from greek myths. Its a nice try, but it goes against laws that God has put in place. Paul says everything is created after its own kind. what is Jesus, a new half breed of God/man? Not sure I can go along with that one.
Just a quick question? If God cannot be in the presence of sin, what does it mean in Job when satan goes into the presence of God? He is sin personfied yet he is able to walk into the presence of God and nothing is said to get him out.
Does anyone have a clue how we can make statements that God and sin cannot dwell together and yet the master sinner talks with him in his presence and accusses us day and night… and we say it was God/Jesus that took my sin upon himself?
If he is our mediator, how then can be be the one being mediated to and also mediate for…
Good question,
It can't be said that God “can't” be in the presence of sin. A better statement would be God chooses not fellowship or dwell amongst sin because he is holy.
Satan came and joined the the son of Gods. God asked Satan where has he been. He apparently shows up to accuse us but does not “hang out” with God. Satan appears to be an exception who is allowed in God's presence. Perhaps, it has to do with his status of god of this world.
However, the idea of God becoming a curse, taking the sins of the whole world on himself and dieing goes against the entire point of Christianity.
That God and Man are seperated by sin and need reconciliation. Christ is that sacrifice and mediator who bridges the gap.
In the trinity's view who's wrath is being turned aside? Who's just nature demands reward and punishment? Jesus's? Or the Father's? They must believe that God has multiple personalities and Jesus is the personality that convinces his Father personality to forgive.
What we call a disorder among men they call divine with God. Do trinitarians really understand that their doctrine is saying that God is a being with multiple personalities.
Talking of Redemption – can anyone tell me why I am “born” a sinner because of an act of one man and his wife more than 6000 years ago… does all this pain and suffering we have to go through as humanity or even have to watch and can do nothing about, does it justify the punishment of one man's actions, for the rest of humanity to suffer for them – come on lets not kid ourselves. As humanity we would not condon that system of justice, yet we live with the notion that God punishes humanity because of Adam and “has it” that we are now all born into sin or with a disposition to sin. This is not justice. If I sin, then I can be judged for my sin, I cannot be born a sinner because of my fathers actions, and can I be rightly judged for being born a sinner. I choose to sin, and it is that sin that marks me and separates me. To say that we are judged not on our own merrit but on Adam's decision, is simply not just in my eyes. It is like a Copper, issuing you with a speeding ticket because your father was caught speed last year before he died and now the fine is given to you, his next in kin to pay… So is it right that I carry his fine, not under our legal system and neither under the legal system of the Jewish people?
Also, to say were are born with sin, is to say that Jesus was born into sin, He was birthed by Mary… who was a sinner, how then can He be free from the touches of sin – unless it is that we are not born with sin but learn to sin.
Hitler's actions affected millions of lives, hurt and pain were the result of one man's actions, but his actions did not cause humanity to be born sinners… how do we come to be born sinners. That equates to sin as being a gene and not something we choose. Therefore, how can you be judged for something you are birthed into.
It is really possible that one man's sin is the reason for our innate tendencies towards sin – or is it simply that we have the same choice today that they had, disobedience or obedience – to partake or not to partake? And the same choices that Jesus had, but he overcame. It says he learned obedience by the things he suffered… how do you learn something that you already are?
How come no other writer in the Bible talks about original sin? Is this just Paul's interpretation, and a loose one at that like is interpretation of other things… like falling from grace, total depravity etc. Are we really totally depraved because Adam and Eve ate a “fruit”…
Hi A007,
Here's a thread on the topic.
How do you explain the death of babies and and those mentally incapacitated, if we are not born with sin?
Artizan,
Do you believe Paul to be a false apostle?
To answer your question I don't think that men are born with sin, but rather are born with the disposition to sin. Babies don't go to hell since they have not reached an age where they can be accountable for sins. Babies can't sin until they are old enough to understand and to be cursed by the law.
Why are we born with the disposition to sin? I can only speculate. The whole world is deceived by Satan for starters.
It also depends also on what you consider the original sin in the garden to be. What are the effects of that sin?Hi,
James taught about the origins of sin.Jas 1
' 13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”
So lust is our inheritance from which sin is conceived and sin lives in us leading to death.
Hi Nick,
How is that teaching original sin? To be tempted does not mean we are born sinful, but we sin because we choose to sin. It is not teaching original sin Nick. That is a big stretch.Quote (Artizan007 @ Oct. 05 2006,04:30) Hey Cubes,
How do you explain the death of Jesus when he was born without sin?
Hi A007I believe this verse answers the question fully. Don't you?
Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
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