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Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 22 2011,15:14) My theory hasn't failed.
Pierre believes in the Hebrew God because someone told him about that God.
At two years old? What Pierre said is that he personally felt God from the time he was two years old, despite the fact that he was raised by a father who was an atheist. Who explained to Pierre about the Hebrew God when he was two?Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 22 2011,15:14) good grief Mike, if you grew up going to church three times a week for 44 years, and now you believe in the Hebrew God, of all the gods!
It must be a miracle. You just made my point.
Actually, I was taken to church from the time I was a baby. At the age of 14, I finally rebelled so hard that my mom gave in and stopped making me go. At that time, I hated Jehovah. I hated the idea of a God who COULD change everything for the better, but refused to do so.Why then, after 30 years of NOT going to church; 30 years of atheism, would I not choose a God more to my personal liking? Why would I be drawn to the very God I hated in my youth? I had surely heard about all kinds of other gods during my 30 year hiatus. Why didn't I choose one of them for my god?
So once again, your theory is flawed.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 22 2011,15:18) The apes have learned that if they look away they may get attacked. So they know better than to look at where someone is pointing. Instead they keep their eyes on the one doing the pointing. That would be my guess.
Tim
And humans? Why then do we look, when the apes we came from don't? And what about canines? Are they not in jeopardy of being attacked when looking away?Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 22 2011,15:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 22 2011,09:43) And Tim, Could you answer what proved to be too hard for Stu? Could you give me an honest and direct answer to: WHAT IS YOUR END GAME? WHY IS IT IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO CONVINCE US THAT THERE IS NO GOD?
Hi Mike,Show me any place where I have tried to convince anyone that there is no God. It is of no importance to me whatsoever to convince anyone that there is no God.
Tim
Then what, Tim? Are you here to belittle and ridicule us for believing in God?If you don't agree with us about God, then I can only guess that you are on a Christian site to either convince us that there isn't a God, or laugh at us for our beliefs.
Surely you're not here to support me in my belief of Jehovah, are you?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 23 2011,09:20) Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 22 2011,15:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 22 2011,09:43) And Tim, Could you answer what proved to be too hard for Stu? Could you give me an honest and direct answer to: WHAT IS YOUR END GAME? WHY IS IT IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO CONVINCE US THAT THERE IS NO GOD?
Hi Mike,Show me any place where I have tried to convince anyone that there is no God. It is of no importance to me whatsoever to convince anyone that there is no God.
Tim
Then what, Tim? Are you here to belittle and ridicule us for believing in God?If you don't agree with us about God, then I can only guess that you are on a Christian site to either convince us that there isn't a God, or laugh at us for our beliefs.
Surely you're not here to support me in my belief of Jehovah, are you?
I don't think Tim is trying to convince anyone that there is no God but what he may be trying to do is understand why someone limits there understanding of God to a specific “God” for instance using the term the “Hebrew God” This comes out of probable innate knowledge that even the idea of “gods” don't make sense and I agree.The actual REAL consideration is that there is ONLY ONE GOD and connecting with God through any channel makes sense for instance we could argue all day about our favorite TV channels or Radio frequencies but we could not argue what Radio or Television is in and of itself.
God has made it this way, what if someone from a very young age is betrayed by those he trusted all while claiming they are the source of this channel you must go through thereby effectively blocking that channel I don't know if that is the case with TIM but I can tell you this if you started talking “TV” instead of what's your favorite program the coversation would take a better turn.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 23 2011,21:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 23 2011,09:20) Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 22 2011,15:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 22 2011,09:43) And Tim, Could you answer what proved to be too hard for Stu? Could you give me an honest and direct answer to: WHAT IS YOUR END GAME? WHY IS IT IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO CONVINCE US THAT THERE IS NO GOD?
Hi Mike,Show me any place where I have tried to convince anyone that there is no God. It is of no importance to me whatsoever to convince anyone that there is no God.
Tim
Then what, Tim? Are you here to belittle and ridicule us for believing in God?If you don't agree with us about God, then I can only guess that you are on a Christian site to either convince us that there isn't a God, or laugh at us for our beliefs.
Surely you're not here to support me in my belief of Jehovah, are you?
I don't think Tim is trying to convince anyone that there is no God but what he may be trying to do is understand why someone limits there understanding of God to a specific “God” for instance using the term the “Hebrew God” This comes out of probable innate knowledge that even the idea of “gods” don't make sense and I agree.The actual REAL consideration is that there is ONLY ONE GOD and connecting with God through any channel makes sense for instance we could argue all day about our favorite TV channels or Radio frequencies but we could not argue what Radio or Television is in and of itself.
God has made it this way, what if someone from a very young age is betrayed by those he trusted all while claiming they are the source of this channel you must go through thereby effectively blocking that channel I don't know if that is the case with TIM but I can tell you this if you started talking “TV” instead of what's your favorite program the coversation would take a better turn.
bodmulti gods worshiping is of old ;this is very old stuff men
in a way many stil do ;look Christmas,easter , Lamec,aloween, the god of luck ,and more….
ho yeah budda,…………….
old stuff
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2011,07:13) Quote
The answer is so trivially obvious I thought I might give you the opportunity to work it out for yourself or look it up if you have to, without drawing undue attention to the fact of the baseness of your request.But you appear to be keen to broadcast some lack of subtlety to the world.
If you remain unable to work it out, get back to us after you have learned something about how natural selection causes modification and subsequently speciation. Of course by then you probably will know enough not to have to ask again.
Stuart
Natural selection preserves the species.When we look back at the fossil record we see sequoias that dwarf that which we see today. Species adapt to different environments and atmospheric conditions. Variety in the gene pool is a design that allows a species to be more robust when change comes along.
But you believe things like a water breathing animal coming out of the water and breathing air and finding a mate where the same mutation happened in the same place at the same time, so that they were able to propagate a new species from there.
Imagine all the other scenarios you must believe?
The only time we have observed the creation of something new was when intelligent beings (humans) played God and played around with the gene pool.
You call yourself intelligent, and yet cannot see that it takes intelligence to create anything of complex design.
You are also ignorant of how God creates using laws that he laid down.
No, for you, rabbits come out of hats. Things happen with processes that have the IQ of zero (that we cannot even fathom) and these processes in turn come from things with the IQ of zero. In short it takes things with the IQ of a pair of gumboots to produce a universe.
Stu you are a citizen of Topsy Turvy Land. Ever thought about immigrating?
I see you are racing others to show off your appalling lack of basic knowledge of the topics on which you are posting.When you say natural selection preserves the species, then give and example of it not preserving a species, what are we supposed to conclude?
You obviously have never heard of a lungfish, or at least have no appreciation of the variation between species of lungfish or the adaptive advantage for them of having two means of oxygen uptake.
I can't imagine what other nonsensical “scenarios” you must believe if you think that males and females need to be separately mutated in the same way. Do you not have even the most elementary grasp of genetics? But it is not just you that apparently believes this: BD put it up on his website, and promoted it with a video on YouTube. Do you remember that? Did you just copy it??
I see you are getting back into evolution and design “arguments” again. You've done the usual ad hominem attacks. Hopefully there will be another amusing false analogy to follow it. Will it be about computers again? Or cars? Or houses? How about doing the bananaman thing for us again?
The banana is perfectly designed with a tear-tab like a coke can…except that most primates, and many human primates open them from the other end regardless. And the bananas we buy in the supermarket were artificially modified from natural bananas anyway.
What do we have to look forward to from you next?
Stuart
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 23 2011,08:11) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 22 2011,06:08) Do you think this kind of “I'm smarter than you” crap really impresses anyone except for yourself? If you do, you're sadly mistaken.
No, me being smarter than you is not intended to impress anyone.Quote Either answer the question DIRECTLY, or admit that you cannot. Here is the scenario I want you to work out for me: The owner of two dogs gives the smaller, weaker of the two a bone. She tells the bigger, stronger dog, “This bone is for Shorty, so leave him alone with it”.
The big dog knows the bone was given to the small dog. He understands the owner's word “NO!” as he was going for the bone. But what does the big dog do as soon as the owner retreats back to her house? Does he think to himself, “This bone belongs to someone weaker than me, so I'll do the right thing and just let Shorty have his bone”? Or will the bigger dog take what he knows he's powerful enough to take?
With that in mind, please address my point. Tell me why, knowing full well that you could kill other human beings and take what is theirs, you don't. To me it makes perfect sense to kill as many others as I can, take their stuff and leave more air, food, and comforts for myself.
OK, try that experiment youself and see how your own survival is promoted by it. By the way, do you live in a state that executes for first degree murder?Quote But I know that's WRONG. My question is HOW DO I KNOW THAT'S WRONG? WHY IS IT EVEN WRONG, since we are just animals applying survival of the fittest?
Evolution is not “survival of the fittest” in that sense. You can read about it, if you really wanted to know. There are lots of excellent books in your local library on the subject.Stu: We don’t even know who wrote the gospels, they are anonymous.
Quote Matthew was written by Levi. John was written by John. Peter's books were written by Peter.
Where does it say any of that?Quote Paul's books were written by Paul.
Probably. But would you call the misogynistic, homophobic and paranoid writing of Saul of Tarsus “gospels”?Quote Like I said, just because YOU don't believe the eyewitness accounts is not to say there are none.
No, it is really true. There is nothing written anywhere that could reliably said to be an example of someone seeing or hearing Jesus then writing about it. I can’t show you evidence for the lack of something like that, there is no such thing. On the other hand, you could show me an example of something that IS reliably an eyewitness account of Jesus. You’d have to justify the “reliably” bit first. On your showing here though, all you will do is assert the traditional view, which blinds itself intentionally to the very careful work done on the question.Quote The scriptures contain the very eyewitness accounts that you say don't exist. 
I should have been clearer. As I stated above, no one saw or heard Jesus and wrote about it. That is what I mean by an eyewitness account. But then I think that is what you mean too. But none can be reliably said to exist.Quote Oh………. So a man TODAY says there were different writing styles, and now Moses' books are debunked?
Well you don’t need textual analysis to debunk a literal reading of the claims attributed to Moses, but what I am saying is that “Moses” is a collective pen name for ancient Jewish religious writing done by at least a handful of different people.Stu, I'm now 47 years old. If you compared my writing style from today with my writing style of age 12, or 18, or 24, you would most likely think the writings were written by different people.
You do realise how rare the skill of writing was in the ancient world, don’t you. And that religious writing would not have been done by the same person at vastly different ages, and that actually your 24 year old writing would compare much more closely with your 47 year old writing than either would compare with someone else. Inevitably your environment and probably your genes lead you to construct language in a characteristic way, with your common vocabulary not overlapping another’s.Quote Besides, no one is saying that Moses is the one who put pen to paper anyway. It is likely that he made use of many different scribes.
I think traditional Judaism DOES claim that Moses wrote the lot himself.Quote I'll just keep smiling and thinking of you every time a new discovery supports the scriptures.
But that ceramic discovery supports what EXACTLY? What theory or concept does it highlight? That scripture contains unexpected things? So what? It doesn’t contain anything surprising. It is all dull ancient mythology that contains their ignorant creation myths plus some occasional rudimentary scientific observations.The ancient Jewish laws prescribe ritual hand washing. In some cases the ritual would help with hygiene, and in other cases it wouldn’t. If Deuteronomy said, specifically, “You must wash your hands because there are things too small for you to see that cause disease”, then you would have my attention! But there is nothing like that at all. No surprises in prophecies that are either sulf-fulfilling or no better than psychic cold reading. No surprises in the scientific knowledge expressed, matched as it is by so much scientific ignorance of things already known in Greece. It’s all monotonous, dull religious waffle. Only the koran makes d
uller reading.Quote Oh, like “the world is flat”? And “the sun revolves around the earth”? Aren't these some of the things we use to consider “reliably true”?
I gave you a long list earlier. You are only 47; why is your memory so poor?Quote If the events and places were real (because some man you trust says so), then it is just your belief that the rest was not real. Stu, your beliefs and a buck fifty might get you a cup of coffee. The fact is that you cannot possibly DISPROVE anything written in scripture.
Well I think I have already shown you that many things in scripture are disproved, but I must object to this claim that it is the sayings of a man I trust. It is because I distrust all sayings that I come to have better knowledge than religious revelation gives.Quote The positive is the scriptures themselves. The burden is on you to either accept them as they are written, or prove them false.
Get back to us when you know what “The burden of proof” means.Quote Come see me when you have something more to offer than “I don't want to believe in any God, and so I will try to convince others that there is none, despite the fact that I can't disprove the existence of a Creator.”…For example, can you prove that God didn't part the Sea of Reeds? If you can't prove that story to be false, then who really cares that you THINK it is?
As I explained to you earlier, once you have finished learning something about biology, you should then learn something about language and philosophy.Can you prove that no cow doesn’t eat grass? No. Does that mean we should believe that some cows are carnivores? No.
Quote Bye Stu.
Ok, bye then.Stuart
hi stu
Quote As I explained to you earlier, once you have finished learning something about biology but is any science not an after effect knowledge ?
just as you and me exist because we are the out come of our parents ? so now science can study us and make any assumption it would like,
and also science may be able to go retroactive ,of cause step by step, but even then the knowledge is only the effect not the cause ,the cause would a more hard thing to prove because no one as seen it ,right ?
this is why they try to reproduce in lab.s so they can prove it by their results right ?
but that as well would be an assumption not be concrete evidence ,if we push this way of thinking we may declare all things Mickey mouse,and then the world would classified by the love of their cartoon character,and groups would be formed and the bigger one would be the right one ,not because it is true but because it is supported by the most.
so it is in the scientific world ,an elsewhere
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 23 2011,09:20) Then what, Tim? Are you here to belittle and ridicule us for believing in God? If you don't agree with us about God, then I can only guess that you are on a Christian site to either convince us that there isn't a God, or laugh at us for our beliefs.
Surely you're not here to support me in my belief of Jehovah, are you?
Hi Mike,
I joined this site five years ago and was at that time as much a believer as anyone here.
It wasn't stu, or any skeptic that caused me to start to doubt the truth of the bible. It was the constant arguing among devout “believers” themselves about what it said.You said, “If you don't agree with us about God, then I can only guess that you are on a Christian site to either convince us that there isn't a God”.
None of you even agree with each other Mike.How could the word of the creator of the universe be so confusing that no two people, with the guidance of the Holy Ghost, can even agree on the message?
If God inspired this book to guide His people, then he failed miserably .
As far as I know, I was never restricted to the skeptics corner.
I have, of my own volition, stayed here so as to not interupt conversations among the (believers) with my doubts.
However I came to the conclusion that believer, on this site,
means believer in the bible, not God.Tim
tim
Quote If God inspired this book to guide His people, then he failed miserably . As far as I know, I was never restricted to the skeptics corner.
I have, of my own volition, stayed here so as to not interupt conversations among the (believers) with my doubts.
However I came to the conclusion that believer, on this site,
means believer in the bible, not God.Tim
what is the bible beside being a book ??paper or digital ?
what you say is for luffs
Pierre
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 23 2011,19:37) Stu: We don’t even know who wrote the gospels, they are anonymous. Quote Matthew was written by Levi. John was written by John. Peter's books were written by Peter.
Where does it say any of that?
Hi Stuart,“The salutation by the hand of me Paul.” (Col.4:18)
“James (Jesus' 1/2 brother), a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.” (James 1:1)Here Paul tells us of Luke and Mark, two of the Gospel writers:
“Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.” (2Tm.4:11)“It seemed good to me(Luke) also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,
to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mightest know the
certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.” (Luke 1:3-4)Is in NOT 'foolishness' to suggest that there is no eyewitness account?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (terraricca @ Dec. 23 2011,23:28) tim Quote If God inspired this book to guide His people, then he failed miserably . As far as I know, I was never restricted to the skeptics corner.
I have, of my own volition, stayed here so as to not interupt conversations among the (believers) with my doubts.
However I came to the conclusion that believer, on this site,
means believer in the bible, not God.Tim
what is the bible beside being a book ??paper or digital ?
what you say is for luffs
Pierre
I give up.
What is a luff?Tim
tim
Quote If God inspired this book to guide His people, then he failed miserably Quote However I came to the conclusion that believer, on this site,
means believer in the bible, not God.this is
Pierre
Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 23 2011,23:24) I came to the conclusion that believer, on this site,
means believer in the bible, not God.Tim
Hi Tim, that is correct! Wise observation!The Lord gave the word (The Bible): great was
the company of those that published it. (Psalms 68:11)Jer.10:10-12 But the LORD(YHVH) is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath
the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. 11 Thus shall ye say unto them,
The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (terraricca @ Dec. 24 2011,05:09) tim Quote If God inspired this book to guide His people, then he failed miserably Quote However I came to the conclusion that believer, on this site,
means believer in the bible, not God.this is
Pierre
I'm sorry Pierre, you missunderstood.
I do not know what a luff is.
We have no such word in the english language.Do you mean laugh?
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 23 2011,06:24) Hi Mike,
I joined this site five years ago and was at that time as much a believer as anyone here.
It wasn't stu, or any skeptic that caused me to start to doubt the truth of the bible. It was the constant arguing among devout “believers” themselves about what it said.You said, “If you don't agree with us about God, then I can only guess that you are on a Christian site to either convince us that there isn't a God”.
None of you even agree with each other Mike.How could the word of the creator of the universe be so confusing that no two people, with the guidance of the Holy Ghost, can even agree on the message?
That is a truly saddening story, Tim.It is said that the single most cause of atheism is Christians themselves.
I do wonder why a couple of knuckleheads who preach unscriptural things would be enough to turn you away from
God. Perhaps you were the seed planted on the rocky soil?Your relationship with God is between you and God. I can't foresee the ignorance of other so-called Christians dampening my love for my Creator. And I'm truly sorry that you let that happen to you.
peace,
mikeQuote (Stu @ Dec. 23 2011,02:37) No, me being smarter than you is not intended to impress anyone.
That actually explains a lot about you, Stu.Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.What do you suppose the last sentence means, Stu? Do you think God is having a laugh at your expense right now like I am?
I find long discussions with you to be quite boring. You are arrogant, full of yourself, and ignorant all at the same time.
Let's suffice to say that you think I'm gullible for believing in an intelligent being who created all living things.
And I think you're beyond brain-dead for believing that inanimate, unintelligent objects, once placed in the right environs, not only became animated, but also somehow developed intelligence where there was none before. And that this unintelligent force, called “evolution”, somehow WANTS beings to thrive and multiply. I mean, if you take a block of wood and set it all by itself, will it eventually bring itself to life and develop intelligence for itself? Will it begin to figure out a way to multiply and survive?
Ludicrous.You can neither disprove any word in the Bible, nor prove your “animated intelligence came from inanimate unintelligence” theory. So let's just leave it as I believe in God and you don't.
I will pick your brain on occasion about certain things though, just to see in which manner you will hide. Right now, I'm wondering why apes don't know to look to where someone is pointing, when human babies and even canines do. Any idea?
I also watched Nova last night, where they explained how the first fish grew legs and walked out of the ocean onto land. The narrator said something like, “This first fish came into a world full of vegetation and insects, ripe for the picking.”
But that left me wondering which fish first crawled onto land and evolved into that vegetation and those insects………..BEFORE that “first fish” walked right into this paradise. Any idea on that one?
Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 24 2011,16:02) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 24 2011,05:09) tim Quote If God inspired this book to guide His people, then he failed miserably Quote However I came to the conclusion that believer, on this site,
means believer in the bible, not God.this is
Pierre
I'm sorry Pierre, you missunderstood.
I do not know what a luff is.
We have no such word in the english language.Do you mean laugh?
Tim
tim
sorry my mistake Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 24 2011,10:10) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 23 2011,02:37) No, me being smarter than you is not intended to impress anyone.
That actually explains a lot about you, Stu.Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.What do you suppose the last sentence means, Stu? Do you think God is having a laugh at your expense right now like I am?
I find long discussions with you to be quite boring. You are arrogant, full of yourself, and ignorant all at the same time.
Let's suffice to say that you think I'm gullible for believing in an intelligent being who created all living things.
And I think you're beyond brain-dead for believing that inanimate, unintelligent objects, once placed in the right environs, not only became animated, but also somehow developed intelligence where there was none before. And that this unintelligent force, called “evolution”, somehow WANTS beings to thrive and multiply. I mean, if you take a block of wood and set it all by itself, will it eventually bring itself to life and develop intelligence for itself? Will it begin to figure out a way to multiply and survive?
Ludicrous.You can neither disprove any word in the Bible, nor prove your “animated intelligence came from inanimate unintelligence” theory. So let's just leave it as I believe in God and you don't.
I will pick your brain on occasion about certain things though, just to see in which manner you will hide. Right now, I'm wondering why apes don't know to look to where someone is pointing, when human babies and even canines do. Any idea?
I also watched Nova last night, where they explained how the first fish grew legs and walked out of the ocean onto land. The narrator said something like, “This first fish came into a world full of vegetation and insects, ripe for the picking.”
But that left me wondering which fish first crawled onto land and evolved into that vegetation and those insects………..BEFORE that “first fish” walked right into this paradise. Any idea on that one?
Hi Mike,These are the people (Atheists and Agnostics) that say 'a rock'(as in minerals) hast brought us forth,
and you already know the bunch that say it was 'a stock'(as in who died on [†] a cross (Rom.1:25)).Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth:
for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of
their trouble they will say, Arise (God), and save us. (Jeremiah 2:27)Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and
served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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