Atheism

[Stu]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2012,07:12)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 20 2012,08:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,03:46) Why WIT?  Because YOU say it's “bad”?   Is sexism bad, Mike?  If not, please explain how it makes ethical or moral sense to automatically favor a man over a woman. Is training your dog to obey his master wrong?  Just because you are looking at this from TODAY'S “women's rights” perspective doesn't mean that's what God had intended. God gave MAN complete rule over every animal He created, and also over woman – who was created, not as man's equal, but as a helper to man. Millions, perhaps billions, of God-fearing women understand this, and live completely happy and fulfilled lives under this hierarchy.  In fact, it is the way it was for THOUSANDS of years, UNTIL JUST RECENTLY IN CERTAIN COUNTRIES.  And it is STILL the way it is in MANY parts of the world. If you want to call me “sexist”, or voice your OPINION that this hierarchy is “bad”, you're free to do so.  But don't expect that your OPINION will take precedence over God's plan in my mind.  And don't expect that your OPINION will bother me in the least. If you read the exchange between Stu and me on this subject, you'll realize that other people's opinions about me are really of no consequence whatsoever.  I live to please God, not man. peace, mike

What is the ethical argument for worshiping a sexist god, that apparently commands attitudes that we know would limit the expression by a woman of her own personal development?

Religion has always been used to repress women, and in a nomadic tribe that is probably less of a problem because it was (and has been recently still) a miserable existence for the whole tribe: no one really had the chance to develop personally or creatively in that situation. It was not until tribes took up a settled domestic agricultural existence and stopped driving or following herds constantly that humans could really flourish as individuals.

But the pattern described in the bible and which you appear to be advocating here, while it does prescribe responsibilities for each sex, generally allows men to develop their human potential while limiting women almost to that original nomadic existence, albeit now stationary.

Just as with my suggestion to BD above, had you considered whether we might have made some progress ethically since then, and that perhaps slavish adherence to the attitudes of another Age amount to a denial of the human characteristic of human development? Yours is a recipe for making us conform to the characteristics of other members of the animal kingdom, ones that perhaps don't feel within themselves any of the ambition that men and women do. Why would your god give us ambition, then command us to do things that would make us feel frustrated that the ambition was being repressed?

Stuart

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 20 2012,15:16)

No, that's what you wanted us to look for.  It was a diversionary tactic that had nothing to do with the original point that the bible is a negative influence on society, in general, and on individual believers, in particular. You tried to pull one of your sleight of hand magic tricks, and Tim called you on it.

I see. So Tim's post about NOT killing and stealing and coveting was supposed to be displaying how the Bible is a “negative influence on society, in general, and on individual believers, in particular”?

How odd.

[Stu]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2012,09:00)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 21 2012,15:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,08:46) Why WIT?  Because YOU say it's “bad”?   Can I put you in touch with millions of JW wives who are completely happy with the fact that God created them as a helper to man, and that man is the head of women? In fact, that's the way it's been in society for thousands of years.  It's STILL that way in many countries.  So a movement in America that makes it politically incorrect for a woman to be submissive to her husband as the head of the household doesn't hold a candle to doing things the way God intended them to be done. If I decide to marry, the woman will be a Christian, and she will be okay with the man being the head of the woman, as millions of submissive, God-fearing wives are. And men have enough to contend with, right, what with women being so impossible due to their menstrual cycles and everything. Stuart stu it is strange you say that but women blame all on men ,for there troubles , this attitude stinks Pierre

I was referring to a previous piece of sexism by Mike, in which he made some baseless comment about Princess regarding menstruation, with no evidence to support his assertion.

Stuart

[mikeboll64]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 20 2012,14:35)

Mike It's amazing how you can see clearly that Men have a degree over women but cannot understand that this same principle is the reason for slavery and even for Islam o have a degree over Christianity.

I have no problem with offering the people of the land you just conquered the opportuity to serve you, instead of being killed or sent out into the wilderness. Where did you get the idea that I was “against slavery”?

And I don't know much about Islam, except that Mohammed preached things that contradict the scriptures.

[Stu]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2012,09:05)

stu this is the solution for the sociopath and others alike ; MT 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” MT 22:38 “This is the great and foremost commandment. MK 7:8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.” MK 7:9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. MK 10:5 But Jesus said to them, “ Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. MK 12:28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Mk 12:29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Mk 12:30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ MK 12:31 “The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” JN 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. JN 15:12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. but it is not easily done it takes courage to stand out of the crowd ,and some times alone Pierre

I think you have no idea what the causes and motives of sociopathic behaviour are. Whether or not modern approaches are effective, if we followed your recipe we would be making the world more dangerous. But that is what you get when you place the ignorant assertions of Bronze Age and early Iron Age Palestinians above modern, science-based clinical practice.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2012,09:15)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 20 2012,15:16) No, that's what you wanted us to look for.  It was a diversionary tactic that had nothing to do with the original point that the bible is a negative influence on society, in general, and on individual believers, in particular. You tried to pull one of your sleight of hand magic tricks, and Tim called you on it. I see.  So Tim's post about NOT killing and stealing and coveting was supposed to be displaying how the Bible is a “negative influence on society, in general, and on individual believers, in particular”?   How odd.

“…nothing to do with…”

Stuart

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 20 2012,15:34)

I am speechless. You just placed women on the same playing field as dogs, and you have no sense of how wrong that is.

I don't believe I did that at all. But I can see that you are better at trying to SLANT the discussion than you are at actually DISCUSSING.

God gave man dominion over women. He ALSO gave man dominion over the beasts of the field. But does that equate women with dogs, sheep, cows and doves? If so, I surely don't see how.

I also noticed that TWICE now, you have conveniently IGNORED the parts of my posts where I mentioned that MUCH OF THE WORLD still operates in the “man over women” hierarchy to this very day.

WIT, what year were women allowed to vote in the USA?

Are you getting my point here? The fact that SOME people in America decided that women and men are exact equals, IN THE LAST 100 YEARS, really holds no sway over me.

Women were created FOR men, pure and simple. And until 100 years ago, virtually EVERY society in the world operated under this Biblical principle. So you taking the currently politically correct stance that all is equal across the board doesn't really hold up to HISTORY of the world as a whole, does it?

Give it up WIT. Don't just SAY you're speechless about this, ACT it also, okay? I don't really care whether you like my view on this.

As far as slavery, I don't remember ever saying it was wrong. I don't think it was right for America to travel to Africa and bring slaves here. But I don't have a problem with a conquering people offering the natives a choice of servitude before sending them away with nowhere to go or killing them.

And if America is ever taken over by another nation, I will gladly go into servitude.

And YES, I am completely and wholly a slave to my God, as are all His true servants.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 20 2012,15:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,08:14) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,14:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,06:30) Goodness!   I keep hearing a bunch of talk about me, but I have yet to see the first scripture that commands ME PERSONALLY to do any of the things you guys keep saying the scriptures command Christians to do. LIST A SCRIPTURE, FOLKS! Deuteronomy 17:2-7 specifically tells you you must kill people who have served other gods.  It is very clear about your responsibility to do that. Stuart Deuteronomy 2:2 2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you………….. Oops.  Yahweh hasn't given me any town.  Try again. (And thanks Stu, for actually listing a scripture instead of more empty talk.) And you think that will get you off? Stuart

Well, it's clear that your first attempt at God commanding me, or anyone who's lived in the past 3000 years, to kill or rape or torture someone didn't work.

What else ya got?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 20 2012,15:40)

And men have enough to contend with, right, what with women being so impossible due to their menstrual cycles and everything.

Those cycles sure bring out the worst in some of them!

Stu, you can pretend to be all valiant and P.C. if you want to, but there is a running gag about pms in almost every romantic comedy made in America.

So pretend like it doesn't happen if you want. As for me, I will choose to live in the real world.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2012,08:11)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 21 2012,14:01) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2012,06:07) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 20 2012,07:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 20 2012,06:58) When did God say that … slavery is always unrighteous? What is your god's ethical argument for the righteousness of slavery? Stuart Hi Stuart, BD will not go against what Mo says. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org This is not a question about Muhammad ED the question from STU was What is your god's ethical argument for the righteousness of slavery? Do you have an answer? Because Slavery was first condoned in the OT by YHVH My answer is in Wikipedia Islamic jurisprudence Traditional Islamic jurisprudence Principles In Islamic jurisprudence, slavery was an exceptional condition, with the general rule being a presumption of freedom (al-'asl huwa 'l-hurriya — “The basic principle is liberty”) for a person if his or her origins were unknown,[2] though enslavement was sanctioned by God as punishment for unbelief.[37] Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery. Islamic law did not recognize the classes of slave from pre-Islamic Arabia including those sold or given into slavery by themselves and others, and those indebted into slavery.[2] Though a free Muslim could not be enslaved, conversion to Islam by a non-Muslim slave did not require that he or she then should be liberated. Slave status was not affected by conversion to Islam.[38] Likewise believing followers of Christ were told to submit to their Masters and no where will you find Jesus saying slavery should be prohibited. As I have said before Slavery must simply have or had a purpose whether we understand it or not bod Quote ,[2] though enslavement was sanctioned by God as punishment for unbelief and who was that god Representative ??

The God you believe in sanctioned Slavery

[terraricca]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 21 2012,16:19)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2012,09:05) stu this is the solution for the sociopath and others alike ; MT 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” MT 22:38 “This is the great and foremost commandment. MK 7:8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.” MK 7:9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. MK 10:5 But Jesus said to them, “ Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. MK 12:28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Mk 12:29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Mk 12:30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ MK 12:31 “The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” JN 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. JN 15:12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. but it is not easily done it takes courage to stand out of the crowd ,and some times alone Pierre I think you have no idea what the causes and motives of sociopathic behaviour are.  Whether or not modern approaches are effective, if we followed your recipe we would be making the world more dangerous.  But that is what you get when you place the ignorant assertions of Bronze Age and early Iron Age Palestinians above modern, science-based clinical practice. Stuart

stu the modern man

if we put all the scientifically world and the elites of this world together under one roof

they would make sure that the rest of the world burns up ,leaving them save and sound ,

Pierre

[TimothyVI]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2012,06:56)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 20 2012,05:11) What about this one Mike, It doesn't have anything to do with a town that God gave you. Are you going to kill your friend or brother because he doesn't believe in your God? “If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.”   (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB) Before you try to wiggle out because you are not a Hebrew, and he didn't say it to you personally. He gave this command to anyone who believes in him as the one true God. Tim Hi WIT, Jehovah never brought me out of Egypt to a land flowing with milk and honey – a land in which these rules were to be enforced. When the Assyrians came and destroyed Samaria, and the Israelites were scattered among the nations, was this law still applicable in those other nations?   Keep trying though.  I'm glad you listed a scripture this time.

Mike,

I knew that before you even answer you were going to say something disingenuous like
“God didn't lead me out of Egypt. Try again Tim.”

And what did you say? “Jehovah never brought me out of Egypt to a land flowing with milk and honey – a land in which these rules were to be enforced.”
So to you the ten commandments that I quoted are null and void, they were never to be inforced except in the land of milk and honey.

Well the truth of the bible is that God never talked to you or to any of the gentiles at all. Jesus never talked to you or to any of the gentiles.
Only Paul talked to the gentiles.
So nothing that Jesus or his Father said pertains to you because they were not talking to you personally. Is that correct? Absolutely nothing in the bible pertains to you because no one in the bible was talking to you personally.

What is amazing is that you can't see how dishonest that your childish mantra is Mike? On one hand you claim to believe the bible and on the other hand you maintain that nothing in it applies to you. You are behaving just like the little kid, holding his hands over his eyes while chanting over and over again, I can't see you, you are not there.”

Princess was correct. You are not a follower of Christ or God.
You are a follower of Paul. Or at least you pretend to be in order to not honestly answer questions that are too hard for you.

Tim

[princess]

Tim,

The problem lies within the formatting of the bible itself, one cannot believe in Christ without believing in the Old Testament, due to its prophecy of a coming Messiah. That is the catch, the one who created the whole matter did not think it through very well. Most likely due to the times, he did not think humanity was either going to last that long or say in its lull and never ask any questions.

This is not rude in any way, but even the ten commandments are a false hood of the religion, technically the ten commandments are located in Exodus 34/13-28, when moses came down from the mount with the second set of tablets.

So perhaps when someone tries to tell you what their god is all about, they should refrain and really know what their god wants from them. Then again Tim, the Jewish faith is all about Moses rules, the Christian faith is all about Pauls, and there is no way the two can be intertiwned without conflict. Perhaps they should rename the ten commandments the first set of be-attitudes.

[mikeboll64]

WIT,

You are calling me childish while YOU'RE the one throwing the tantrum.  

If you cannot tell the difference between the 10 commandments that were for all time, and the covenant directed only at the Israelites who were coming into a nation of their own – short lived as it was – then how can I help you?

When the man asked Jesus what he could do to be saved, and told Jesus that he had kept all of the commandments, did Jesus ask if he had killed any pagan Romans lately?  

Or did he instead point out the two of the commandments that were the most important, and add that the man should sell what he had and give to the poor?

The laws governing the actions of Israelites when they were in charge of their own land went away when Hezekiah went away.

If you can't find a scripture where anyone since Hezekiah was asked to kill or torture or enslave someone else, then give it up.

Your ad hominems are not serving their intended purpose, because it matters not to me whether you think I'm childish.  In fact, Jesus said I must accept the Kingdom of God like a child – so I'm cool with being “childish”.  

[princess]

Quote

God gave man dominion over women

There is a reason why some choose one religion over another, yours is getting clearer by the moment.
Seriously, you need counseling. You have a lot of bitterness, anger, hurt and control issues going on, and you have not discovered any healing.

Quote

But I don't have a problem with a conquering people offering the natives a choice of servitude before sending them away with nowhere to go or killing them.

BD has a lot to offer you Mike, you choose poorly with your religion.

Quote

And if America is ever taken over by another nation, I will gladly go into servitude.

Not by Gods standards Mike, you will be run through with a sword and your son will have his head bashed against the stone.

[mikeboll64]

Princess,

Your last two posts are nonsensical gibberish, and really unworthy of a response from me.

[princess]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2012,09:47)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 20 2012,15:40) And men have enough to contend with, right, what with women being so impossible due to their menstrual cycles and everything. Those cycles sure bring out the worst in some of them!   Stu, you can pretend to be all valiant and P.C. if you want to, but there is a running gag about pms in almost every romantic comedy made in America. So pretend like it doesn't happen if you want.  As for me, I will choose to live in the real world.

The more you write Mike the worse it gets, why would a god fearing submissive woman want a man that watches a running gag about a womans time on tele.

A true Christian man would not know of such things, so if you want this woman you seek a change needs to happen.

Stuart is not the one that needs to face reality.

With all the love in my heart, seek healing Mike.

[princess]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2012,13:36)

Princess, Your last two posts are nonsensical gibberish, and really unworthy of a response from me.

No Mike, that is just your way of not facing the truth. No one can change that but you.

[mikeboll64]

Princess, I am in the best mental and spiritual condition of my life. I do not “seek” any woman, because my God has filled any perceived hole I might have once thought I NEEDED a woman to fill.

Nor would I ever seek help so I could be considered more acceptable to you or Stuart or WIT. The world is SUPPOSED to hate me if I'm doing it right.

Go check out this link if you think I just imagined this “pms” stuff. There are PAGES upon PAGES of info and jokes about this REAL issue many women deal with.

Half of these videos, from what I can see, are women poking fun at themselves about pms. Thank God SOME people have a sense of self-depreciating humor.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (princess @ Jan. 20 2012,20:47)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2012,13:36) Princess, Your last two posts are nonsensical gibberish, and really unworthy of a response from me. No Mike, that is just your way of not facing the truth. No one can change that but you.

Really Princess?

The 10 commandments are a falsehood because they are the second copy?

This is the kind of nonsense you hope people will take seriously?

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