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Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 19 2012,13:39) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 19 2012,07:34) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2012,22:34) Hi WIT, Remember, I said it wasn't in “the creation account”.
The bible account agrees with what Science now knows.The creation account (in the bible) told us about the Earths:
1. Earths Rotation. (Genesis 1:4)
2. The Earth is round. (Isaiah 40:42)
3. The orbit around the sun. (Job 26:7)
4. And even the Earth's axis tilt. (Gen.1:14)The bible told us about the universe:
5. It had a beginning. (which Science now calls the big bang) (Genesis 1:1)
6. The expansion of the universe. (confirmed by Edwin Hubble) (Isaiah 40:22)God bless
Ed J
Against my better judgment, I am going to respond to your nonsense here, because it is breathtakingly ludicrous.Quote 1. Earths Rotation. (Genesis 1:4) Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.(1)Really? That's the bible telling us the earth has rotation?
Not only is that a major stretch, it brings up a bigger problem:
(2)What light? There's no sun, moon, or stars until the 4th day. What physical light is being divided here between night and day?
(3)This is total apologetic nonsense.
Quote 2. The Earth is round. (Isaiah 40:42) Isaiah 40:22 (not 42, like you have above)
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.This is wishful thinking. The term used is circle, not sphere or ball. (And yes, there is a Hebrew word for ball. See Isaiah 22:18). Ancient people thought of the earth as a flat disk, (i.e. circle), floating on water, anchored by pillars. This verse does nothing to correct that thinking.
(4)At best, this verse is neutral.
Quote 3. The orbit around the sun. (Job 26:7) Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.Are you kidding me? This verse says nothing about the earth in relation to any other object, much less the sun. An orbit, by definition, must be in relation to the object it is orbiting around.
(5)This is an even bigger apologetic stretch than #1.
Quote 4. And even the Earth's axis tilt. (Gen.1:14) Genesis 1:14:
Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years … “Now, you're just being silly. You think that because this verse references “seasons”, it means that the bible is informing us about the earth's tilt? Really?
So, when I stumble across a remote tribe in South America, and the tribe leader says, “Hey, we've got seasons around here,” that I should marvel at his scientific knowledge concerning the tilt of the earth?
(6)I think we have a winner for the biggest apologetic stretch of them all.
Quote 5. It had a beginning. (which Science now calls the big bang) (Genesis 1:1) News flash, Ed. Every creation myth known to man has a beginning to it. It's called story telling. Every story has a beginning, middle, and end. But, let's take a quick look at the verse anyway.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.(7)Earth on Day 1. Sun on Day 4. Yeah, that's a problem, Ed.
Quote 6. The expansion of the universe. (confirmed by Edwin Hubble) (Isaiah 40:22) Isaiah 40:22 (not 42, like you have above)
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.(8)How many tents do you know of that continually expand? One? Two? How about zero!
(9)Now, go back and look at that picture with the firmament spread out over the earth like – dare I say it! – like a tent!
(10)I'll leave it to the readers to decide which better fits this passage, but I am going to go ahead and mark it down as a stretch.
(11)Oh, and that picture also explains why the bible refers to water above the firmament, floodgates, pillars of the earth, etc.. You should keep it handy when you read through the bible.
You can thank me later.
Hi WIT,You don't like discoursing with me about the bible, because
I “solidly” refute the ludicrous claims you make against it!
Se here we go again. What I said was: “told us about“.1) Night and day is indicative of the the Earths rotation; do you deny this?
2) Genesis 1:16 is a reiteration of our “Sun” being created on day one. (Genesis 1:3)
3) God is not calling the Earth a circle, but instead describing a sphere;
a sphere (drawn on paper) is round as a circle is round, without shading THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.4) How else would you explain the relative fixed position of Earth to ignorant sheep herders of 3,000+ years ago?
5) Are not the seasons based on the axis tilt of the Earth? …You know this is true! …so squawk and complain all you want!
6) Science has finally caught up to
the biblical account of the universe having a beginning, calling it “the big bang”.7) See point #2.
8) A tent is descriptive of us eventually traveling to the stars to live any where we want in our universe.
And spreading out is descriptive of our universes constant expansion within it.9) What for? …I answered your argument in point #8.
10) You calling it “a stretch” is just confirmation of the fit I have given to your argument. …thank you for your honesty!
11) Today even, we call a torrential rain, “a downpour”; yet it would be ludicrous to suggest someone is pouring out a bucket.
The term “opening the flood gates” is an idiom is indicative of water which is out of control.Do you really think 'YOUR DOUBTS' are going to sway anyone's faith toward atheism?
WIT, you have 'FAILED' MISERABLY' to prove any of your assertions of biblical errors!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi WIT,Are you going to re-address the 11 counter-points
that I have made to your argument in this post?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Stu @ Jan. 20 2012,07:38) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 20 2012,04:13) I am just saying that Slavery just like violence while you may not like it does not mean there is not good purpose for it. You simply assume things you dislike are bad and things you like are good, right?
You are muddying the waters regarding the fact that slavery does have a “good” purpose in that it has been used to promote economic growth, which some would argue is a good, however it is a morally repugnant way of doing it and the good is in that case is irrelevant.Correct me if I am wrong, but what this is really about is Mo keeping his own slaves, and your own slavery to the idea that anything Mo wrote down, including this sura, is what god is telling you is right:
33:50 Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty
Allah takes slaves:
33:26 And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.
You can marry your slaves:
4:3 And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.
…even if they are already married:
4:24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.
Nasty.
Stuart
Nasty to you because you disagree but if you disagree you certainly don't disagree on spiritual grounds because you are not a believer so what moral standard would you be using to disagree.Also Slavery may have other complicated reasons for being acceptable The Quran and the Bible do not condone abusing slaves and in-fact prohibits abuse of slaves.
Obviously in a war of some sort their are captives and they have to be dealt with in some way, should they simply be imprisoned for life, killed or simply let free which in such cases can lead to revenge
what would you do?
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2012,01:08) Hi WIT, Are you going to re-address the 11 counter-points
that I have made to your argument in this post?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I already did, Ed.Hi WIT,
You re-addressed “ALL” eleven points?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 20 2012,05:11) What about this one Mike,
It doesn't have anything to do with a town that God gave you.
Are you going to kill your friend or brother because he doesn't believe in your God?“If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.” (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Before you try to wiggle out because you are not a Hebrew, and he didn't say it to you personally.
He gave this command to anyone who believes in him as the one true God.Tim
Hi WIT,Jehovah never brought me out of Egypt to a land flowing with milk and honey – a land in which these rules were to be enforced.
When the Assyrians came and destroyed Samaria, and the Israelites were scattered among the nations, was this law still applicable in those other nations?
Keep trying though. I'm glad you listed a scripture this time.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 20 2012,08:50) Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 20 2012,19:08) To all, God commanded “Thou shalt not kill.”
But He wasn't talking to me personally.…
This is Mike's excuse for not obeying the bible.
Perfectly illustrated! Nice job.
Really?
I thought you guys were looking for scriptures that commanded me PERSONALLY to do an act of violence, or own a slave, etc.
I don't see how Tim's post “perfectly illustrated” that at all.
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2012,06:07) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 20 2012,07:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 20 2012,06:58) When did God say that … slavery is always unrighteous?
What is your god's ethical argument for the righteousness of slavery?Stuart
Hi Stuart,BD will not go against what Mo says.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
This is not a question about Muhammad ED the question from STU wasWhat is your god's ethical argument for the righteousness of slavery?
Do you have an answer? Because Slavery was first condoned in the OT by YHVH
My answer is in Wikipedia
Islamic jurisprudence
Traditional Islamic jurisprudence
Principles
In Islamic jurisprudence, slavery was an exceptional condition, with the general rule being a presumption of freedom (al-'asl huwa 'l-hurriya — “The basic principle is liberty”) for a person if his or her origins were unknown,[2] though enslavement was sanctioned by God as punishment for unbelief.[37] Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery. Islamic law did not recognize the classes of slave from pre-Islamic Arabia including those sold or given into slavery by themselves and others, and those indebted into slavery.[2] Though a free Muslim could not be enslaved, conversion to Islam by a non-Muslim slave did not require that he or she then should be liberated. Slave status was not affected by conversion to Islam.[38]
Likewise believing followers of Christ were told to submit to their Masters and no where will you find Jesus saying slavery should be prohibited.
As I have said before Slavery must simply have or had a purpose whether we understand it or not
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 20 2012,08:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,03:46) Why WIT? Because YOU say it's “bad”? 
Is sexism bad, Mike? If not, please explain how it makes ethical or moral sense to automatically favor a man over a woman.
Is training your dog to obey his master wrong? Just because you are looking at this from TODAY'S “women's rights” perspective doesn't mean that's what God had intended.God gave MAN complete rule over every animal He created, and also over woman – who was created, not as man's equal, but as a helper to man.
Millions, perhaps billions, of God-fearing women understand this, and live completely happy and fulfilled lives under this hierarchy. In fact, it is the way it was for THOUSANDS of years, UNTIL JUST RECENTLY IN CERTAIN COUNTRIES. And it is STILL the way it is in MANY parts of the world.
If you want to call me “sexist”, or voice your OPINION that this hierarchy is “bad”, you're free to do so. But don't expect that your OPINION will take precedence over God's plan in my mind. And don't expect that your OPINION will bother me in the least.
If you read the exchange between Stu and me on this subject, you'll realize that other people's opinions about me are really of no consequence whatsoever. I live to please God, not man.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2012,07:12) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 20 2012,08:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,03:46) Why WIT? Because YOU say it's “bad”?
Is sexism bad, Mike? If not, please explain how it makes ethical or moral sense to automatically favor a man over a woman.
Is training your dog to obey his master wrong? Just because you are looking at this from TODAY'S “women's rights” perspective doesn't mean that's what God had intended.God gave MAN complete rule over every animal He created, and also over woman – who was created, not as man's equal, but as a helper to man.
Millions, perhaps billions, of God-fearing women understand this, and live completely happy and fulfilled lives under this hierarchy. In fact, it is the way it was for THOUSANDS of years, UNTIL JUST RECENTLY IN CERTAIN COUNTRIES. And it is STILL the way it is in MANY parts of the world.
If you want to call me “sexist”, or voice your OPINION that this hierarchy is “bad”, you're free to do so. But don't expect that your OPINION will take precedence over God's plan in my mind. And don't expect that your OPINION will bother me in the least.
If you read the exchange between Stu and me on this subject, you'll realize that other people's opinions about me are really of no consequence whatsoever. I live to please God, not man.
peace,
mike
MikeIt's amazing how you can see clearly that Men have a degree over women but cannot understand that this same principle is the reason for slavery and even for Islam o have a degree over Christianity.
To all are degrees (or ranks) according to their deeds: for thy Lord is not unmindful of anything that they do.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #132)It is not your wealth nor your sons, that will bring you nearer to Us in degree: but only those who believe and work righteousness – these are the ones for whom there is a multiplied Reward for their deeds, while secure they (reside) in the dwellings on high!
( سورة سبأ , Saba, Chapter #34, Verse #37)Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #253)Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 21 2012,14:01) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2012,06:07) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 20 2012,07:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 20 2012,06:58) When did God say that … slavery is always unrighteous?
What is your god's ethical argument for the righteousness of slavery?Stuart
Hi Stuart,BD will not go against what Mo says.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
This is not a question about Muhammad ED the question from STU wasWhat is your god's ethical argument for the righteousness of slavery?
Do you have an answer? Because Slavery was first condoned in the OT by YHVH
My answer is in Wikipedia
Islamic jurisprudence
Traditional Islamic jurisprudence
Principles
In Islamic jurisprudence, slavery was an exceptional condition, with the general rule being a presumption of freedom (al-'asl huwa 'l-hurriya — “The basic principle is liberty”) for a person if his or her origins were unknown,[2] though enslavement was sanctioned by God as punishment for unbelief.[37] Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery. Islamic law did not recognize the classes of slave from pre-Islamic Arabia including those sold or given into slavery by themselves and others, and those indebted into slavery.[2] Though a free Muslim could not be enslaved, conversion to Islam by a non-Muslim slave did not require that he or she then should be liberated. Slave status was not affected by conversion to Islam.[38]
Likewise believing followers of Christ were told to submit to their Masters and no where will you find Jesus saying slavery should be prohibited.
As I have said before Slavery must simply have or had a purpose whether we understand it or not
bodQuote ,[2] though enslavement was sanctioned by God as punishment for unbelief and who was that god Representative ??
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2012,01:55) Hi WIT, You re-addressed “ALL” eleven points?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
The key word in your question is “re-addressed”.What I have already written need not be re-explained. If you don't understand it – or more charitably, if you don't agree with it – that's fine. I can't possibly make my points any clearer.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2012,01:59) I thought you guys were looking for scriptures that commanded me PERSONALLY to do an act of violence, or own a slave, etc. I don't see how Tim's post “perfectly illustrated” that at all.
No, that's what you wanted us to look for. It was a diversionary tactic that had nothing to do with the original point that the bible is a negative influence on society, in general, and on individual believers, in particular.You tried to pull one of your sleight of hand magic tricks, and Tim called you on it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2012,02:12) Is training your dog to obey his master wrong? Just because you are looking at this from TODAY'S “women's rights” perspective doesn't mean that's what God had intended. God gave MAN complete rule over every animal He created, and also over woman – who was created, not as man's equal, but as a helper to man.
I am speechless.You just placed women on the same playing field as dogs, and you have no sense of how wrong that is.
I only hope that you don't think it's OK to beat Fido – er, I mean your wife – when you are training her. Your attitude is abusive enough on its own without adding actual physical abuse as well.
By the way, based on your logic, the following is a justification for slavery, using your own words:
Millions, perhaps billions, of God-fearing [slaves] understand this, and live completely happy and fulfilled lives under this hierarchy. In fact, it is the way it was for THOUSANDS of years, UNTIL JUST RECENTLY IN CERTAIN COUNTRIES. And it is STILL the way it is in MANY parts of the world.
After all:
Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.1 Peter 2:18
Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.I am sure that if you lived two centuries ago, you would have been the biggest champion of slavery. After all, the bible clearly affirms this kind of hierarchy. (Who knows. Perhaps you still think slavery is morally acceptable as long as some slaves are happy.)
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 21 2012,08:13) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2012,01:55) Hi WIT, You re-addressed “ALL” eleven points?
God bless
Ed J
The key word in your question is “re-addressed”.What I have already written need not be re-explained. If you don't understand it – or more charitably, if you don't agree with it – that's fine. I can't possibly make my points any clearer.
Hi WIT,The point is you failed to show any errors,
but you are welcome to keep trying.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,08:14) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,14:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,06:30) Goodness! I keep hearing a bunch of talk about me, but I have yet to see the first scripture that commands ME PERSONALLY to do any of the things you guys keep saying the scriptures command Christians to do.
LIST A SCRIPTURE, FOLKS!
Deuteronomy 17:2-7 specifically tells you you must kill people who have served other gods. It is very clear about your responsibility to do that.Stuart
Deuteronomy 2:2
2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you…………..Oops. Yahweh hasn't given me any town. Try again.
(And thanks Stu, for actually listing a scripture instead of more empty talk.)
And you think that will get you off?Stuart
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,08:46) Why WIT? Because YOU say it's “bad”? Can I put you in touch with millions of JW wives who are completely happy with the fact that God created them as a helper to man, and that man is the head of women?
In fact, that's the way it's been in society for thousands of years. It's STILL that way in many countries. So a movement in America that makes it politically incorrect for a woman to be submissive to her husband as the head of the household doesn't hold a candle to doing things the way God intended them to be done.
If I decide to marry, the woman will be a Christian, and she will be okay with the man being the head of the woman, as millions of submissive, God-fearing wives are.
And men have enough to contend with, right, what with women being so impossible due to their menstrual cycles and everything.Stuart
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 21 2012,03:35) Hi WIT, The point is you failed to show any errors,
but you are welcome to keep trying.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Thanks, but I am pretty sure that I nailed it the first time.Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 21 2012,06:47) Nasty to you because you disagree but if you disagree you certainly don't disagree on spiritual grounds because you are not a believer so what moral standard would you be using to disagree. Also Slavery may have other complicated reasons for being acceptable The Quran and the Bible do not condone abusing slaves and in-fact prohibits abuse of slaves.
Obviously in a war of some sort their are captives and they have to be dealt with in some way, should they simply be imprisoned for life, killed or simply let free which in such cases can lead to revenge
what would you do?
Tell me how spirituality requires god belief, or how having a moral standard requires spiritual grounds.As soon as you have used the word slavery you are talking about abuse of humans. Forced labour is a human rights abuse.
And why is there a war that leaves captives that you might consider to take as slaves? It is because the koran dangerously asserts that you, as a muslim, may “slaughter them where you find them” IF you are being oppressed, but it doesn't define oppression, leaving that to your own judgment. That is a license for wholesale slaughter by the oversensitive of anyone exercising his free speech.
What would I do if I were fighting a war and were taking captives? I would feel compelled to follow the Geneva convention, or expect to be locked up myself for life. So you might say there was no such thing as a Geneva convention in the days of Mo. Well, if humans today consider that to be an ethical treatment of enemies in time of war, why didn't Mo invent it?
Is killing or enslavement of your enemies as per the sura the more ethical option than what is prescribed in the Geneva convention? Notwithstanding the atrocities committed on both sides in the recent Iraq war, people today reject that sort of excessive sadistic violence, and so we should expect them not to pay attention to the nasty excesses of the koran. We do have such a thing as human development, a characteristic of our species, but your model appears to have us not progressing ethically at all.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 21 2012,15:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2012,08:46) Why WIT? Because YOU say it's “bad”? Can I put you in touch with millions of JW wives who are completely happy with the fact that God created them as a helper to man, and that man is the head of women?
In fact, that's the way it's been in society for thousands of years. It's STILL that way in many countries. So a movement in America that makes it politically incorrect for a woman to be submissive to her husband as the head of the household doesn't hold a candle to doing things the way God intended them to be done.
If I decide to marry, the woman will be a Christian, and she will be okay with the man being the head of the woman, as millions of submissive, God-fearing wives are.
And men have enough to contend with, right, what with women being so impossible due to their menstrual cycles and everything.Stuart
stuit is strange you say that but women blame all on men ,for there troubles ,
this attitude stinks
Pierre
stu
this is the solution for the sociopath and others alike ;
MT 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
MT 22:38 “This is the great and foremost commandment.
MK 7:8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
MK 7:9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
MK 10:5 But Jesus said to them, “ Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
MK 12:28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?”
Mk 12:29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Mk 12:30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’MK 12:31 “The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
JN 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
JN 15:12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.but it is not easily done it takes courage to stand out of the crowd ,and some times alone
Pierre
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