Atheism

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2012,12:23)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 18 2012,17:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2012,10:18)

Okay guys, put up or shut up.

WHEN DID GOD SPECIFICALLY TELL ME, A 47 YEAR OLD MAN LIVING IN THE USA, TO DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS?

List the scripture that would apply to ME. (ONE scripture at a time, please.)

I don't know that God ever specifically told you anything Mike?

What does that have to do with what you called his guidebook?

Tim

Okay Tim, Asana and Princess,

Which one of those things am I PERSONALLY GUIDED to do by the scriptures?

Hi Mike,
If scriptures are not for personally guiding you, of what use are they?

You must not believe these scriptures either.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Tim

January 19, 2012 at 12:24 pm#273262

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 17 2012,03:22)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2012,03:40)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 12 2012,22:06)

I can tell you with certainty that the bible's cosmology is wrong.

No, you actually can't, WIT. Or at least you haven't shown me yet.

…

It seems to me that if you can't prove the universe is NOT in a dome, then you can't, with any CERTAINTY, make the claim about the “firmament” that you are trying to make.

When I first brought this issue up with Ed, I asked an open ended question. I let him (and later you) explain what happened on Day 2 of creation according to the bible. You and Ed both decided that the firmament in that passage was talking about the atmosphere/sky. When I challenged you to reconcile that explanation with the Day 4 account of the sun, moon, and stars being placed in the firmament, Ed changed the subject, and you suggested that the firmament is now possibly the entire universe!

I proved to you that believers, including you and Ed, would naturally understand that the firmament in the creation myth is the sky and that only when challenged would try to reinterpret it to be something else. You have demonstrated quite perfectly that you can only accept the bible's view of certain things by refusing to believe what it is obviously saying.

Go back and read Genesis 1, and keep this picture in mind when you do.

It fits like a glove!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2012,03:40)

[W]hich “science” knows more than the scriptures? The science of 1000 years ago? 200 years ago? 100? 50? Last year?

See WIT, what scientists know “with certainty” TODAY is always and forever being disproved by later scientists.

Here's the funny thing, Mike.

You have no idea what I look like. You've never met me and likely never will. You could very well live on the other side of the earth from me, (like Stu). Yet, we are having a discussion about the bible with each other.

How is that even remotely possible? Science! (More accurately, the applied science of engineering.)

And, this, a forum on the internet, is one of the duller achievements of science. There are so many remarkable things that we as humans can do, because of science, and a lot of that progress was achieved once the grip of religious thinking was eased to a degree that people were no longer threatened with being burned at the stake merely for discovering and publishing the truth.

Yes, science continues to learn from its mistakes and get better every year, but that is clearly a good thing, not some shameful quality as you try to paint it. By contrast, religions cause people to still think that it's OK to execute “demon possessed” children, or mutilate women suspected of witchcraft. (Both examples are from Christian sects in Africa.)

Let me put it to you this way:

How has the bible uniquely been of practical benefit to humanity in terms of helping human progress in this world? (I am ruling out “spiritual progress” for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that Christians can't even agree on a consistent set of spiritual principles.)

Science demonstrates its usefulness everyday in every aspect of your life. Religion, on the other hand, brings conflict and hatred, even among those who believe in the same God, (like the Christians on this forum).

WIT, what is true is that the Genesis record is often confused with let there be light as the creation of the sun.

But preceding text states that God had already created the Heavens and Earth and that the Earth was in darkness.

Let there be light in this case is likely not creation of the sun as that is part of the already created heavens. It is simply the fact that light has pierced a dark Earth.

This is even suggested by many others outside of scripture. That the Earth was indeed a dark violent world once and when the atmosphere cleared and let light in, then life was possible.

We know for a start that super volcanic eruptions were aplenty in the early formation of Earth. Taupo in New Zealand for example could singly handedly plunge the world into darkness if it had another super eruption today. That is of course possible and in scripture it talks about near darkness signifying the wrath of God in the end times with the following description:

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,

January 19, 2012 at 12:37 pm#273263

Participant

Quote (princess @ Jan. 19 2012,10:40)

Mike

What part does not apply to you? For you to say this, one can only take it that you are a Pauline Christian, due to Paul changed all the previous practices. Now if you would admit that Pauline Christianity is what you practice then the conversation becomes null and void, for none of it would apply to you.

Hi Princess,

Good to hear from you. I hope you are doing well.
Mike hasn't answered you but I think that you hit the nail on the head.

Tim

January 19, 2012 at 1:18 pm#273266

princess

Participant

Tim

Thank you for noticing I was away for a bit and yes I am well as I hope to find you.

Combining the Old and New Testatment is somewhat difficult, even some writers have gone as far to say by comparison there are two different Gods in the bible. The only deterent is that Jesus is to be the Son of this God, if it were not for this, Christianity would most likely be a more popular religion.

And to truly state that one is a Pauline Christian is not so well taken in the Christian world, but even so by majority, most are. They rely on the books of Paul (for use of a better term) to defend what they believe now.

What I find much more interesting, is that the ones that say well if God said kill them all, then so be it, then turn around and throw stones at ones that still do use the mentality God said kill them all.

January 19, 2012 at 4:45 pm#273282

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2012,05:18)

Okay guys, put up or shut up.

WHEN DID GOD SPECIFICALLY TELL ME, A 47 YEAR OLD MAN LIVING IN THE USA, TO DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS?

List the scripture that would apply to ME. (ONE scripture at a time, please.)

Do you permit women to speak in your church? Do you permit them to teach, in any way? Or, do you, as the bible requires of you, demand that they keep silent until they are at home? (See 1 Timothy 2:11-13 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

January 19, 2012 at 4:53 pm#273285

Participant

WIT,
I think that Mike is stuck on the fact that nothing said in the bible applies to him, only what God has specifically said to him which no one else has heard.

Tim

January 19, 2012 at 4:53 pm#273286

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,06:00)

Actually slavery was temporary in most cases so you are wrong there.

Leviticus 25:44-46
And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.

I think that you are confusing slavery with indentured servitude. The bible advocates both, but only non-Hebrews could be enslaved. Indentured servitude involved paying off debts and was, in fact, a temporary condition. As shown above, slavery was not.

Quote

Your thoughts on slavery are not inaccurate from a wordly stand point they are simply inaccurate from a more spiritually developed standpoint.

Well, the only slavery that I know about is “worldly” slavery. I have no idea what you mean, or even could possibly mean, by spiritual slavery. In any case, it doesn't sound like something that I would want to involved in.

January 19, 2012 at 4:57 pm#273287

terraricca

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 20 2012,09:45)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2012,05:18)

Okay guys, put up or shut up.

WHEN DID GOD SPECIFICALLY TELL ME, A 47 YEAR OLD MAN LIVING IN THE USA, TO DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS?

List the scripture that would apply to ME. (ONE scripture at a time, please.)

Wit

Read the entire scriptures related to your question,you will have the answer

Pierre

January 19, 2012 at 5:09 pm#273289

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 19 2012,08:39)

Hi WIT,

You don't like discoursing with me about the bible, because
I “solidly” refute the ludicrous claims you make against it!
Se here we go again. What I said was: “told us about“.

Do you really think 'YOUR DOUBTS' are going to sway anyone's faith toward atheism?
WIT, you have 'FAILED' MISERABLY' to prove any of your assertions of biblical errors!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

If you really believe that you “solidly refute” what I say, then you are truly living in your own version of reality – the same one where magic numbers prove God exists, even though not even your fellow Christians are impressed by them.

In any case, the bible “tells us about” the scientific claims that you listed in the same way that a three year old does.

A three year old observes that:

1) Night follows day in continuous cycles. He must be referring to the rotation of the earth!

2) We experience different seasons. He must be talking about the tilt of the earth!

3) The sun moves across the sky. He must know that the earth orbits the sun!

And so on.

It's a joke, Ed. I hope that you are laughing, because the rest of us who inhabit reality are laughing either at you or with you.

January 19, 2012 at 5:16 pm#273290

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 19 2012,17:24)

WIT, what is true is that the Genesis record is often confused with let there be light as the creation of the sun.

But preceding text states that God had already created the Heavens and Earth and that the Earth was in darkness.

Let there be light in this case is likely not creation of the sun as that is part of the already created heavens. It is simply the fact that light has pierced a dark Earth.

This is even suggested by many others outside of scripture. That the Earth was indeed a dark violent world once and when the atmosphere cleared and let light in, then life was possible.

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,

I've heard this one from you before, T8, (i.e. the creation account is told from the point of view of someone on earth.) It's nonsense.

Genesis 1:3-5:
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

If the sun's not visible, what's this about? How is there day and night with no visible sun?

You can't have it both ways.

January 19, 2012 at 5:23 pm#273292

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 19 2012,21:53)

WIT,
I think that Mike is stuck on the fact that nothing said in the bible applies to him, only what God has specifically said to him which no one else has heard.

Tim

I know, and I think your point about 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is dead on.

He's basically turned the bible into something that doesn't instruct him to do anything just for the purposes of this discussion.

I imagine that he will continue to quote from the entire bible in his debates with other Christians when he is trying to prove some doctrine to be true. Well, doctrinally speaking, slavery is as righteous as anything else in the law, but he can't bring himself to admit that.

January 19, 2012 at 6:13 pm#273300

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 20 2012,02:53)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,06:00)

Actually slavery was temporary in most cases so you are wrong there.

Quote

Your thoughts on slavery are not inaccurate from a wordly stand point they are simply inaccurate from a more spiritually developed standpoint.

I am just saying that Slavery just like violence while you may not like it does not mean there is not good purpose for it. You simply assume things you dislike are bad and things you like are good, right?

January 19, 2012 at 6:15 pm#273301

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 20 2012,03:16)

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 19 2012,17:24)

WIT, what is true is that the Genesis record is often confused with let there be light as the creation of the sun.

But preceding text states that God had already created the Heavens and Earth and that the Earth was in darkness.

Let there be light in this case is likely not creation of the sun as that is part of the already created heavens. It is simply the fact that light has pierced a dark Earth.

This is even suggested by many others outside of scripture. That the Earth was indeed a dark violent world once and when the atmosphere cleared and let light in, then life was possible.

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,

I've heard this one from you before, T8, (i.e. the creation account is told from the point of view of someone on earth.) It's nonsense.

If the sun's not visible, what's this about? How is there day and night with no visible sun?

You can't have it both ways.

Can you see the Sun at night? so what does visibility of the sun have to do with the sun being present?

January 19, 2012 at 6:19 pm#273302

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 19 2012,22:24)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 17 2012,03:22)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2012,03:40)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 12 2012,22:06)

I can tell you with certainty that the bible's cosmology is wrong.

No, you actually can't, WIT. Or at least you haven't shown me yet.

…

It seems to me that if you can't prove the universe is NOT in a dome, then you can't, with any CERTAINTY, make the claim about the “firmament” that you are trying to make.

Go back and read Genesis 1, and keep this picture in mind when you do.

It fits like a glove!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2012,03:40)

[W]hich “science” knows more than the scriptures? The science of 1000 years ago? 200 years ago? 100? 50? Last year?

See WIT, what scientists know “with certainty” TODAY is always and forever being disproved by later scientists.

Here's the funny thing, Mike.

How is that even remotely possible? Science! (More accurately, the applied science of engineering.)

Let me put it to you this way:

WIT, what is true is that the Genesis record is often confused with let there be light as the creation of the sun.

But preceding text states that God had already created the Heavens and Earth and that the Earth was in darkness.

Let there be light in this case is likely not creation of the sun as that is part of the already created heavens. It is simply the fact that light has pierced a dark Earth.

This is even suggested by many others outside of scripture. That the Earth was indeed a dark violent world once and when the atmosphere cleared and let light in, then life was possible.

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,

Excellent argument

January 19, 2012 at 6:47 pm#273306

terraricca

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 20 2012,11:13)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 20 2012,02:53)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,06:00)

Actually slavery was temporary in most cases so you are wrong there.

Quote

Your thoughts on slavery are not inaccurate from a wordly stand point they are simply inaccurate from a more spiritually developed standpoint.

bod

Quote

this statement is totally untrue,righteousness and unrighteousness as nothing to do with what someone likes or dislikes

Pierre

January 19, 2012 at 8:30 pm#273308

mikeboll64

Blocked

Goodness!

I keep hearing a bunch of talk about me, but I have yet to see the first scripture that commands ME PERSONALLY to do any of the things you guys keep saying the scriptures command Christians to do.

LIST A SCRIPTURE, FOLKS!

(The women speaking in church doesn't apply to me, because I don't go to a church. The Jehovah's Witnesses probably come the closest to how I understand scriptures, and if it weren't for a couple key issues, I would join that organization. And they DON'T let the women speak before the congregation. And when a woman, by necessity, has to say a prayer or lead a book study, they cover their heads.)

SO………………….. what's next? Just more talk?

I'm anxious to read the scripture that requires ME to kill, sacrifice, rape, steal, torture, etc.

January 19, 2012 at 8:58 pm#273314

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 20 2012,04:47)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 20 2012,11:13)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 20 2012,02:53)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,06:00)

Actually slavery was temporary in most cases so you are wrong there.

Quote

Your thoughts on slavery are not inaccurate from a wordly stand point they are simply inaccurate from a more spiritually developed standpoint.

bod

Quote

this statement is totally untrue,righteousness and unrighteousness as nothing to do with what someone likes or dislikes

Pierre

You must have misunderstood I just said what you said. When did God say that violence and or slavery is always unrighteous?

January 19, 2012 at 9:36 pm#273323