Atheism

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,06:41)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,04:06) Do parents treat their children as property? Do married people treat each other as property(Limiting their actions physically and financially) And even today most employers treat their employees as a sort of property at least when they are on the clock I think what you despise is not Slavery but the abuse of people in general which I agree with but Slavery itself is not Evil because as I said in the case of parenting it is neccessary And members of one's own cult, are they slaves too if necessary? Stuart

What do you mean?

[princess]

WIT,

I have a question, if you were to take a person in who is having a hard time of it, and barter i.e. shelter and food cost are taken care of, in place help with housekeeping, cooking ect ….., without payment. Would you consider this to be a form of slavery.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,06:47)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,13:41) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,04:06) Do parents treat their children as property? Do married people treat each other as property(Limiting their actions physically and financially) And even today most employers treat their employees as a sort of property at least when they are on the clock I think what you despise is not Slavery but the abuse of people in general which I agree with but Slavery itself is not Evil because as I said in the case of parenting it is neccessary And members of one's own cult, are they slaves too if necessary? Stuart stu,bod so what is slavery,and what freedom ?? where is one starts and the other ends ?? Pierre

Pierre

Your freedom in the world is being a Slave to God.

[Stu]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 18 2012,15:00)

Hey Ed, That picture is not from an atheist website.  It's from an honest catholic priest.  He admits to the flaws in the creation myth rather than burying his head in the sand like you've done.

We have Isaiah quoted by Ed as referring to the expansion of the universe:

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

I assume we are expected to focus on the expression “stretcheth out” and not the expression “as a curtain”, and the words “spreadeth them out” and not “as a tent”.

Some christians will go to impressive lengths to reinterpret scripture in terms of modern science then claim scripture is somehow prophetic of that interpretation.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,07:08)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,06:41) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,04:06) Do parents treat their children as property? Do married people treat each other as property(Limiting their actions physically and financially) And even today most employers treat their employees as a sort of property at least when they are on the clock I think what you despise is not Slavery but the abuse of people in general which I agree with but Slavery itself is not Evil because as I said in the case of parenting it is neccessary And members of one's own cult, are they slaves too if necessary? Stuart What do you mean?

The members of your cult, do they see themselves in the same way you apparently expect children to see their parents, with you in some kind of ownership role?

Stuart

[mikeboll64]

Hey All,

Thanks for your posts.  Everything each of you wrote is a slice of HISTORY, as recorded in the Bible.

I will ask each of you the following questions, and if the answer is YES to any of them, I will look deeper into it.  If the answers are all NO, then my involvement in this discussion is over.

1.  Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should kill anyone?

2.  Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should rape anyone?

3.  Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should steal from anyone?

4.  Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should own slaves?

5.  Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should  break the laws of the land (except in a case where man's law conflicts with God's)?

6.  Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should torture anyone?

7.  Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should use any kind of force at all to convert others to Christianity?

8.  Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should join the armed forces of their nation and go to war against other nations?

9.  Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should kill another human being, even in the matter of self defense?  Or kill someone who robs from them?

10.  Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should hate their enemies, and wish bad upon them?

11. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should make dishonest gain at the expense of others?

If any of these result in an answer of “YES”, please let me know so we can discuss it further.  If they don't, then there's not much more for me to say on the subject.

I know that “Christians” came to America a long time ago and TORTURED the native peoples until they agreed to convert.  People's hands were chopped off in front of their children's eyes.  Very brutal stuff.

I know that people kill in the name of God and the name of the Bible every day.

I know the list of those slain in the name of Jehovah goes on forever, and the “Biblical justifications” for those acts of violence are just as many.

But the bottom line is that the Bible doesn't teach ANYONE to do these things.  

Thanks for your time,
mike

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 19 2012,06:49)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 18 2012,23:06) Do parents treat their children as property? No. Quote Do married people treat each other as property(Limiting their actions physically and financially) No. Quote And even today most employers treat their employees as a sort of property at least when they are on the clock No, they don't. If something is your property, you can do whatever you want to it with little or no consequences.  That's why the slave owner is basically only given a reprimand for beating his slave to death, according to Exodus 21:20-21.  You can not beat your child to death without consequence.  You can not beat your wife to death without consequence.  Your employer can not beat you to death without consequence. There is no equivalence. Quote I think what you despise is not Slavery but the abuse of people in general which I agree with but Slavery itself is not Evil because as I said in the case of parenting it is neccessary No, slavery itself, (i.e. owning another human being), is evil, even if the slave is treated nicely.  You may not think so, but those of us who no longer cling to 15th century morality disagree with you strongly.

WIT

Now you seem to fall for the same disease you accuse ED and others of and that is not admitting the facts.

Good parents control every aspect of a child's life until the child reaches a certain age. The child has literally almost no freedom they are told what to eat and what to do, they will be punished in some way if they are disobedient, they are by definition SLAVES

Do you have any children or no any children that from birth were aloowed to do whatever they wanted?

Most married couples forbid certain activities that the other can do with the threat of punishment if those certain activities are carried out. Do you know of any couples that forbid their mate from freely conducting themselves however they see fit this by definition is slavery

Employers regularly ask more of an employee than originally agreed upon the emplyee will do so only because of the threat of punishment and this is a form of slavery and why employers generally hate unions. Have you ever been told by someone employed that they did not want to do something but they felt they had to , to keep their job? That is a form of slavery

Your last staement was based completely in ignorance TODAY the largest supplier of electronics is based in China where at a certain company they almost prefer suicide to working it is so difficult to te point that they have built ntes to catch the suicidal work force now you may think only beating people is bad but conditions that cause someone to kill themselves is far worse but guess what these people in China are free to leave at any time.

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I think what you despise is not Slavery but the abuse of people in general which I agree with but Slavery itself is not Evil because as I said in the case of parenting it is neccessary

Now let the record reflect if you agree that children should be able to do whatever they feel.

Spouses should be able to do whatever they feel

and workers should do whatever they feel

[Stu]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,00:49)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 18 2012,06:48) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,21:49) Now let me ask you a question, Stuart. If Christians are (according to atheists) delusional for believing in a God…             How can becoming delusional help? Because the power of suggestion is strong, and because you have adopted a totalitarian belief system which will force you to override other behaviours because of your zealous adoption of its beliefs, absurd as they are.  But then it could work equally well to join the army.  I don't know, I've never been in that situation of desperation, I'm grateful to report. And I agree that christianity is better than living a destructive lifestyle.  But it is a third-rate philosophy that demands you accept a human sacrifice as a cure for a disease that doesn't exist.  So I would have thought once christianity has given you a hand out of the gutter, it would be a short matter of time before you would want to find something substantially better for a personal philosophy of life.  Maybe if more people had a better preparation in life, for example a better education, then fewer would reach only as far as christianity for a hand out of trouble.   Stuart Stu What cure is their for Greed,ego,sociopath behavior,? Looking forward to learn Pierre

You specifically want to know about those three, right? Did you have a particular reason for choosing each of those?

I don't know if there is a cure to sociopath behaviour. Clearly christianity isn't. But I do think it is worth engaging in scientific investigation of that question, but by people far more qualified to do so then either of us.

I don't think “ego” is something for which a cure should be attempted, is it? It is a term invented by Freud, I believe, to describe a normal component of one's psyche.

Greed is about expectation. Just as there are greedy non-believers there are sects of christianity based on the concept of acquiring wealth. It may be that the mythology of Jesus insists that you give all your possessions to the poor in order to follow him, but it is ironic that the richest people in the US are christians, and indeed American christians are financially better off than atheists on average. I don't know about the relative obesity rates for each. I bet the bulging bible belt wins that race too: guns, religion and McDonalds.

The prison statistics and other facts tend to support the view that criminals are mostly religious.

No answers in christianity, I think.

Stuart

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 18 2012,22:34)

Hi WIT, Remember, I said it wasn't in “the creation account”. The bible account agrees with what Science now knows. The creation account (in the bible) told us about the Earths: 1. Earths Rotation. (Genesis 1:4) 2. The Earth is round. (Isaiah 40:42) 3. The orbit around the sun. (Job 26:7) 4. And even the Earth's axis tilt. (Gen.1:14) The bible told us about the universe: 5. It had a beginning. (which Science now calls the big bang) (Genesis 1:1) 6. The expansion of the universe. (confirmed by Edwin Hubble) (Isaiah 40:22) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Against my better judgment, I am going to respond to your nonsense here, because it is breathtakingly ludicrous.

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1. Earths Rotation. (Genesis 1:4)

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.

Really?  That's the bible telling us the earth has rotation?

Not only is that a major stretch, it brings up a bigger problem:

What light?  There's no sun, moon, or stars until the 4th day.  What physical light is being divided here between night and day?

This is total apologetic nonsense.

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2. The Earth is round. (Isaiah 40:42)

Isaiah 40:22 (not 42, like you have above)
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
     And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
     Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
     And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

This is wishful thinking.  The term used is circle, not sphere or ball.  (And yes, there is a Hebrew word for ball.  See Isaiah 22:18).  Ancient people thought of the earth as a flat disk, (i.e. circle), floating on water, anchored by pillars.  This verse does nothing to correct that thinking.

At best, this verse is neutral.

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3. The orbit around the sun. (Job 26:7)

Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
     He hangs the earth on nothing.

Are you kidding me?  This verse says nothing about the earth in relation to any other object, much less the sun.  An orbit, by definition, must be in relation to the object it is orbiting around.

This is an even bigger apologetic stretch than #1.

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4. And even the Earth's axis tilt. (Gen.1:14)

Genesis 1:14:
Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years … “

Now, you're just being silly.  You think that because this verse references “seasons”, it means that the bible is informing us about the earth's tilt?  Really?

So, when I stumble across a remote tribe in South America, and the tribe leader says, “Hey, we've got seasons around here,” that I should marvel at his scientific knowledge concerning the tilt of the earth?

I think we have a winner for the biggest apologetic stretch of them all.

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5. It had a beginning. (which Science now calls the big bang) (Genesis 1:1)

News flash, Ed.  Every creation myth known to man has a beginning to it.  It's called story telling.  Every story has a beginning, middle, and end.  But, let's take a quick look at the verse anyway.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Earth on Day 1.  Sun on Day 4.  Yeah, that's a problem, Ed.

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6. The expansion of the universe. (confirmed by Edwin Hubble) (Isaiah 40:22)

Isaiah 40:22 (not 42, like you have above)
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
     And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
     Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
     And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

How many tents do you know of that continually expand?  One?  Two?  How about zero!

Now, go back and look at that picture with the firmament spread out over the earth like – dare I say it! – like a tent!

I'll leave it to the readers to decide which better fits this passage, but I am going to go ahead and mark it down as a stretch.

Oh, and that picture also explains why the bible refers to water above the firmament, floodgates, pillars of the earth, etc..  You should keep it handy when you read through the bible.

You can thank me later.

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (princess @ Jan. 19 2012,02:09)

WIT, I have a question, if you were to take a person in who is having a hard time of it, and barter i.e. shelter and food cost are taken care of, in place help with housekeeping, cooking ect ….., without payment. Would you consider this to be a form of slavery.

Of course not, there is no force involved, and it's not permanent (or, at least, it doesn't have to be).

That's not the case with the bible though.

Leviticus 25:44-46
And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves.  Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property.  And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.

[Stu]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 18 2012,07:16)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 17 2012,06:48) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,21:49) If Christians are (according to atheists) delusional for believing in a God…             How can becoming delusional help? Because the power of suggestion is strong, and because you have adopted a totalitarian belief system which will force you to override other behaviours because of your zealous adoption of its beliefs, absurd as they are. Then WHY IN THE WORLD would you knock it, Stu?   If the belief in an “imaginary God” helped Ed to live a BETTER life than what he was living, WHY WOULD YOU KNOCK IT? Why is it important for you to tell Ed that the faith that saved him from a terrible life is “absurd”?  Who gives you “points” for trying to belittle a faith that has caused a 180 degree turn around to a better life for so many people, including myself? I just don't get why it's so important for you to prove to us that there is no God, or make fun of us for believing that there is.

I would never confront someone in a desperate situation with the assertion that his reach for a hand-up through a religious cult is ridiculous, no matter how ridiculous the cult that might have dragged him up. I don't believe in prostyletising, and I don't believe in belittling those in genuine strife: there is a time for developing a worldview, and a desparate time might not be the best one, although that is generally when people grasp on and then fail to let go. This is more about how someone has prepared himself for such eventualities, and leaving yourself completely unprepared puts you in the prime situation of relying on peddlers of nasty doctrines who will view you as convertible. Remember Scientology works this way, although it invents your illness for you, the one it claims it can cure. Actually christianity has done the same thing, by inventing really nasty doctrines like “sin” and “original sin”, a concept based on an event that never happened.

So we are dealing with a worldview that appears to recruit desperate people. Is it the best worldview to which those people COULD aspire? Perhaps it is a view that has the power to rescue from the gutter. But then there are plenty of other kinds of organisation that rescue people without suggesting they have to accept a human sacrifice and believe nonsense like humans being born of only one parent.

That indicates too that christianity might be able to replace a set of behaviours that are physically and emotionally damaging to the person and those around him with a set of behaviours that are arguably emotionally and psychologically damaging. So the source of the obvious damage is replaced by damage that is subtler and more difficult to see, damage to the ability of a person to see the world as it really is. Well I guess that might have been what the alcoholic or drug addict (or whatever other stereotype of “person to be saved” conformed to) was trying to escape from in the first place: reality.

So, with one unreal situation replaced by a second unreal situation, which includes kind people willing to lend a healing listening ear but demands in return allegiance to nonsense, the “rescued” person is in a kind of half-way house, in danger of settling for something that is third-rate as a philosophy.

Perhaps I am being overambitious for christians. Is there hope for them? Obviously the modern decline in christian belief is cause for optimism. It would be important to think that people were choosing a worldview that rejects damaging dogmas, but the resurgence of belief in all forms of superstition is less encouraging.

So, what are these better options? Ed asked earlier how my philosophy of life was different from his. I think it is better to be skeptical, not accepting. That is the means by which humanity has progressed, and the only way we will get ourselves out of any messes we have got ourselves into. I don't think it is healthy to focus obsessively on gurus from the past. By all means the ideas of the ancients should be considered dispassionately for their worth, but making those ideas into your identity is to become a slave. I don't see any virtue in faith, the mentality of believing things without evidence. I don't see any evidence of intent in the universe, apart from the intent shown by us and other animals, such a view is acquired by being told there is a celestial conspiracy of supernatural beings, then reinterpreting what we see based on that assumption. That is what I mean by failing to see things as they really are. That is not a belief system that has beauty or truth.

Stuart

[terraricca]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,14:27)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,00:49) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 18 2012,06:48) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,21:49) Now let me ask you a question, Stuart. If Christians are (according to atheists) delusional for believing in a God…             How can becoming delusional help? Because the power of suggestion is strong, and because you have adopted a totalitarian belief system which will force you to override other behaviours because of your zealous adoption of its beliefs, absurd as they are.  But then it could work equally well to join the army.  I don't know, I've never been in that situation of desperation, I'm grateful to report. And I agree that christianity is better than living a destructive lifestyle.  But it is a third-rate philosophy that demands you accept a human sacrifice as a cure for a disease that doesn't exist.  So I would have thought once christianity has given you a hand out of the gutter, it would be a short matter of time before you would want to find something substantially better for a personal philosophy of life.  Maybe if more people had a better preparation in life, for example a better education, then fewer would reach only as far as christianity for a hand out of trouble.   Stuart Stu What cure is their for Greed,ego,sociopath behavior,? Looking forward to learn Pierre You specifically want to know about those three, right?  Did you have a particular reason for choosing each of those? I don't know if there is a cure to sociopath behaviour.  Clearly christianity isn't.  But I do think it is worth engaging in scientific investigation of that question, but by people far more qualified to do so then either of us. I don't think “ego” is something for which a cure should be attempted, is it?  It is a term invented by Freud, I believe, to describe a normal component of one's psyche. Greed is about expectation.  Just as there are greedy non-believers there are sects of christianity based on the concept of acquiring wealth.  It may be that the mythology of Jesus insists that you give all your possessions to the poor in order to follow him, but it is ironic that the richest people in the US are christians, and indeed American christians are financially better off than atheists on average.  I don't know about the relative obesity rates for each.  I bet the bulging bible belt wins that race too: guns, religion and McDonalds. The prison statistics and other facts tend to support the view that criminals are mostly religious. No answers in christianity, I think. Stuart

stu

I pick those tree because they are a combination and the guilt party to all humanity problems,

religion as nothing to do with it at all ,

because it affecting all of humanity poor ,rich,educated and non educated people of all languages and all countries,

but yes there is a cure in the scriptures,

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,14:09)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,06:47) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,13:41) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,04:06) Do parents treat their children as property? Do married people treat each other as property(Limiting their actions physically and financially) And even today most employers treat their employees as a sort of property at least when they are on the clock I think what you despise is not Slavery but the abuse of people in general which I agree with but Slavery itself is not Evil because as I said in the case of parenting it is neccessary And members of one's own cult, are they slaves too if necessary? Stuart stu,bod so what is slavery,and what freedom ?? where is one starts and the other ends ?? Pierre Pierre Your freedom in the world is being a Slave to God.

bod

your religion make you a slave and is not helping you so see truth ,

and NO i am not a slave to my heavenly father but a son to him,

Pierre

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2012,02:20)

Hey All, Thanks for your posts.  Everything each of you wrote is a slice of HISTORY, as recorded in the Bible. I will ask each of you the following questions, and if the answer is YES to any of them, I will look deeper into it.  If the answers are all NO, then my involvement in this discussion is over. … If any of these result in an answer of “YES”, please let me know so we can discuss it further.  If they don't, then there's not much more for me to say on the subject. I know that “Christians” came to America a long time ago and TORTURED the native peoples until they agreed to convert.  People's hands were chopped off in front of their children's eyes.  Very brutal stuff. I know that people kill in the name of God and the name of the Bible every day. I know the list of those slain in the name of Jehovah goes on forever, and the “Biblical justifications” for those acts of violence are just as many. But the bottom line is that the Bible doesn't teach ANYONE to do these things.   Thanks for your time, mike

The answer to all of your questions is: it depends on who is doing the reading.

You should know as well as anyone here that Christians can't agree on what the bible is saying.

Now, before you “close the case”, please answer the follow from my previous post:

Do you permit women to speak in your church?  Do you permit them to teach, in any way?  Or, do you, as the bible requires of you, demand that they keep silent until they are at home?  (See 1 Timothy 2:11-13 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

[terraricca]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 19 2012,15:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2012,02:20) Hey All, Thanks for your posts.  Everything each of you wrote is a slice of HISTORY, as recorded in the Bible. I will ask each of you the following questions, and if the answer is YES to any of them, I will look deeper into it.  If the answers are all NO, then my involvement in this discussion is over. … If any of these result in an answer of “YES”, please let me know so we can discuss it further.  If they don't, then there's not much more for me to say on the subject. I know that “Christians” came to America a long time ago and TORTURED the native peoples until they agreed to convert.  People's hands were chopped off in front of their children's eyes.  Very brutal stuff. I know that people kill in the name of God and the name of the Bible every day. I know the list of those slain in the name of Jehovah goes on forever, and the “Biblical justifications” for those acts of violence are just as many. But the bottom line is that the Bible doesn't teach ANYONE to do these things.   Thanks for your time, mike The answer to all of your questions is: it depends on who is doing the reading. You should know as well as anyone here that Christians can't agree on what the bible is saying. Now, before you “close the case”, please answer the follow from my previous post: Do you permit women to speak in your church?  Do you permit them to teach, in any way?  Or, do you, as the bible requires of you, demand that they keep silent until they are at home?  (See 1 Timothy 2:11-13 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

wit

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The answer to all of your questions is: it depends on who is doing the reading. You should know as well as anyone here that Christians can't agree on what the bible is saying.

so you agree that it is not all who call on the name of the Lord that are true Believers ?as scriptures says

Pierre

[Stu]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2012,07:20)

Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should kill anyone?

Leviticus 20, all by itself, gives 12 reasons to kill others. Whether a person reading it today chooses to ignore the commands of his god is a matter for his own conscience and salvation, I guess.

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2. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should rape anyone?

Deuteronomy 21:10 onwards prescribes the manner in which a soldier should rape the young women of his enemies. Once again, Jesus didn’t say he came to cancel that law. What is your basis for claiming it is invalid?

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3. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should steal from anyone?

Not to my knowledge, but Exodus 22:2 tells you that you can kill the thief.

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4. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should own slaves?

It doesn’t say they shouldn’t, it kind of assumes it as the norm. So much for principle, and claims that everyone is equal under god.

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5. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should break the laws of the land (except in a case where man's law conflicts with God's)?

You answered that yourself.

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6. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should torture anyone?

Proverbs 20:30 seems to recommend its worth. Matthew 18:34 describes how god delivered a person to his torturers to extract what was supposedly owed. Then there is Luke 12:46-48, Psalm 89:31-2, and the especially gruesome torture scene in Revelation 9:5-6, amongst many examples. SHOULD you be torturing? It is your god’s recommendation.

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7. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should use any kind of force at all to convert others to Christianity?

What, you mean like the threat of eternal torment? Too many instances of that to list.

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8. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should join the armed forces of their nation and go to war against other nations?

If it was good enough for Joshua…

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9. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should kill another human being, even in the matter of self defense? Or kill someone who robs from them?

See above.

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10. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should hate their enemies, and wish bad upon them?

Tell me what you think your god hates, and how that is scriptural, and there you would have an example to follow. Unless your ambition is not to be “godly”.

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11. Does the Bible tell anyone who reads it today that they should make dishonest gain at the expense of others?

It prescribes for tithing, a practice that results in televangelists acquiring vast wealth for telling lies on television, so yes.

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If any of these result in an answer of “YES”, please let me know so we can discuss it further. If they don't, then there's not much more for me to say on the subject.

You have proclaimed. We kneel down in the face of your wisdom and beneficence that you choose to bestow upon us oh Mike…

…oh, wait…

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,08:20)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,14:27) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,00:49) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 18 2012,06:48) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,21:49) Now let me ask you a question, Stuart. If Christians are (according to atheists) delusional for believing in a God…             How can becoming delusional help? Because the power of suggestion is strong, and because you have adopted a totalitarian belief system which will force you to override other behaviours because of your zealous adoption of its beliefs, absurd as they are.  But then it could work equally well to join the army.  I don't know, I've never been in that situation of desperation, I'm grateful to report. And I agree that christianity is better than living a destructive lifestyle.  But it is a third-rate philosophy that demands you accept a human sacrifice as a cure for a disease that doesn't exist.  So I would have thought once christianity has given you a hand out of the gutter, it would be a short matter of time before you would want to find something substantially better for a personal philosophy of life.  Maybe if more people had a better preparation in life, for example a better education, then fewer would reach only as far as christianity for a hand out of trouble.   Stuart Stu What cure is their for Greed,ego,sociopath behavior,? Looking forward to learn Pierre You specifically want to know about those three, right?  Did you have a particular reason for choosing each of those? I don't know if there is a cure to sociopath behaviour.  Clearly christianity isn't.  But I do think it is worth engaging in scientific investigation of that question, but by people far more qualified to do so then either of us. I don't think “ego” is something for which a cure should be attempted, is it?  It is a term invented by Freud, I believe, to describe a normal component of one's psyche. Greed is about expectation.  Just as there are greedy non-believers there are sects of christianity based on the concept of acquiring wealth.  It may be that the mythology of Jesus insists that you give all your possessions to the poor in order to follow him, but it is ironic that the richest people in the US are christians, and indeed American christians are financially better off than atheists on average.  I don't know about the relative obesity rates for each.  I bet the bulging bible belt wins that race too: guns, religion and McDonalds. The prison statistics and other facts tend to support the view that criminals are mostly religious. No answers in christianity, I think. Stuart stu I pick those tree because they are a combination and the guilt party to all humanity problems, religion as nothing to do with it at all , because it affecting all of humanity poor ,rich,educated and non educated people of all languages and all countries, but yes there is a cure in the scriptures, Pierre

There is a cure to sociopathic behaviour in the scriptures??

Do share!

You better explain how it is a cure, and point out the verse that uses the words “sociopathic” or accurately describes typical sociopathic behaviours.

Stuart

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,02:25)

Now let the record reflect if you agree that children should be able to do whatever they feel. Spouses should be able to do whatever they feel and workers should do whatever they feel

Did you ignore the whole “you can't beat your child to death, etc” point?  You completely failed to address it.

In any case, let me try this from another angle.

The key difference between parenting and owning a slave – as if the two could even be compared! – is that a parent is attempting to help the child become a mature, independent adult.  A parent of a six month old child will control far more of the child's life than the parent of a six year old child, and so on.  It's not about permanently exploiting the child for labor.  It's about teaching the child to become his own master.

If you can't see the difference, then I truly hope that you don't have children.

As far as spouses go, I really hope that you don't have one, because your attitude towards marriage is quite oppressive.  No, I do not forbid my spouse to do anything, nor does she forbid me to do anything.  I voluntarily forgo certain things out of respect for her, not because she stands ready to beat me senseless if I disobey.  (And, if I did someday decide that those “other things” were more important than her, then I would divorce her and go pursue them.  It's all voluntary!)

It's called “love”, Bod.  It really does make for a better marriage than being a controlling “master”.  I hope, for your wife's sake, that you understand that.

As for employers, again, the key difference is whether or not I can quit my job at any time.  I may do things that I don't like on my job because I want the money more than I want to look for another job.  That's not the same thing as doing something with no choice to ever quit.

If the Chinese workers can only get out of their jobs via suicide, than they are, in fact, slaves.  If you think that all employees are similarly disposed, than I would suggest that you talk to a lawyer about labor law.

Here's a way to make the distinction:

Slavery is a permanent condition, not a temporary hardship.

Keep repeating that to yourself until you understand it.

[terraricca]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,15:47)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,08:20) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,14:27) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,00:49) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 18 2012,06:48) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,21:49) Now let me ask you a question, Stuart. If Christians are (according to atheists) delusional for believing in a God…             How can becoming delusional help? Because the power of suggestion is strong, and because you have adopted a totalitarian belief system which will force you to override other behaviours because of your zealous adoption of its beliefs, absurd as they are.  But then it could work equally well to join the army.  I don't know, I've never been in that situation of desperation, I'm grateful to report. And I agree that christianity is better than living a destructive lifestyle.  But it is a third-rate philosophy that demands you accept a human sacrifice as a cure for a disease that doesn't exist.  So I would have thought once christianity has given you a hand out of the gutter, it would be a short matter of time before you would want to find something substantially better for a personal philosophy of life.  Maybe if more people had a better preparation in life, for example a better education, then fewer would reach only as far as christianity for a hand out of trouble.   Stuart Stu What cure is their for Greed,ego,sociopath behavior,? Looking forward to learn Pierre You specifically want to know about those three, right?  Did you have a particular reason for choosing each of those? I don't know if there is a cure to sociopath behaviour.  Clearly christianity isn't.  But I do think it is worth engaging in scientific investigation of that question, but by people far more qualified to do so then either of us. I don't think “ego” is something for which a cure should be attempted, is it?  It is a term invented by Freud, I believe, to describe a normal component of one's psyche. Greed is about expectation.  Just as there are greedy non-believers there are sects of christianity based on the concept of acquiring wealth.  It may be that the mythology of Jesus insists that you give all your possessions to the poor in order to follow him, but it is ironic that the richest people in the US are christians, and indeed American christians are financially better off than atheists on average.  I don't know about the relative obesity rates for each.  I bet the bulging bible belt wins that race too: guns, religion and McDonalds. The prison statistics and other facts tend to support the view that criminals are mostly religious. No answers in christianity, I think. Stuart stu I pick those tree because they are a combination and the guilt party to all humanity problems, religion as nothing to do with it at all , because it affecting all of humanity poor ,rich,educated and non educated people of all languages and all countries, but yes there is a cure in the scriptures, Pierre There is a cure to sociopathic behaviour in the scriptures?? Do share! You better explain how it is a cure, and point out the verse that uses the words “sociopathic” or accurately describes typical sociopathic behaviours. Stuart

stu

Profile of the Sociopath

This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as “their right.”

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet “gets by” by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.
Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceiv
e that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

stu, would you agree with this description ??

Pierre

[terraricca]

stu

this another source;

Answer:

Here is a list of ways to identify a sociopath. This list is from “Profile of a Sociopath.” Is is a pretty good list of sociopathic indicators.
Glibness/superficial charm
Manipulative and conning
Grandiose sense of self
Pathological lying
Lack of remorse, shame or guilt
Shallow emotions
Incapacity for love
Need for stimulation
Callousness/lack of empathy
Poor behavioral controls/impulsive nature
Early behavior problems/juvenile delinquency
Irresponsibility/unreliability
Promiscuous sexual behavior/infidelity
Lack of realistic life plan/parasitic lifestyle
Criminal or entrepreneurial versatility
Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Narcissism, grandiosity (self-importance not based on achievements)
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(Obviously, in order to be a sociopath a person doesn't have to exhibit anything like all the above. Usually, the lack of a conscience, the manipulation of others, dishonesty and the inability to love and/or have lasting and profound personal relations and cruelty are key symptoms and often much more revealing than having been in trouble with the courts.)

More input and personal anecdotes from other WikiAnswers contributors to help you know if someone is a sociopath:
First, you'll know a sociopath from the description/list posted above here. Also, as another poster wrote, get a book on sociopaths and it will help you beyond belief. Even a book or article on controlling personalities or borderline personalities will help you. Once you can identify the pattern you will begin to “see the light.” Sociopaths are charming at first and may seem charming and normal to everyone around them. But they have an almost scary need for control. They will isolate you from friends and family and you will be tangled in your web before you know it.
The key characteristics of a sociopath include: (1) having no conscience, (2) inability to treat others as human beings, with feelings and rights and (3) inability to learn from experience, from life. One result of this last is gross immaturity, though it may be hidden unless one knows the person well. A sociopath behaves as if he/she were the only person in the whole world and as if everyone else just existed for their benefit and had no existence in their own right. (4) Sociopaths treat other people as toys and hanker after the power to control and hurt their “nearest and dearest.” (5) Many are monumentally self-important: They may pretend to be millionaires, when in reality they are sliding towards financial disaster. (6) Habitual dishonesty.
He will charm his way into your life and heart, then take complete advantage of you – your emotions, your finances, your intellect. He will make you think you are the crazy one. Your friends will see right through him. He will isolate you from your friends and possibly your family. He cannot hold a job and will probably commit crimes – theft, fraud, forgery, and spend time in jail or prison. He will abuse drugs or alcohol. He may abuse you.
My mother is a sociopath, and from all accounts, has been since she was a very young child. She's caused non-stop turmoil in our family, through three generations, and is a charming and frightening menace. I'm the only one to have gotten any counseling on the issue, and the only child so far not to be controlled by mental problems resulting from our upbringing. As such, I'm the “parent” as far as anybody in our family is concerned, and the dumping ground for complaints about her shocking awful hurtful behavior. I can recognize she never had any kind of “close” relationship with her father, but it pales in comparison to the way she treated and treats my siblings and myself. Her bad choices in male companionship have contributed to our family grief, but clearly aren't her fault.
The book The Sociopath Next Door saved me thousands of dollars in therapy!
It is very difficult to recognize a sociopath but in a nutshell, a sociopath is a parasite. There is no help because a sociopath does not want to be helped. A sociopath will attract you with his charm and bring you to his side, then he will toy with you, lie and show no remorse. Sometimes there will be a fake smile in his face while he engages in his malicious ways. When confronted, he will deny any responsibility, then back away from you and blame you for whatever wrong he did. What is worse, everybody will believe him because he is able to gain sympathy in a cunning and calculating way.
My nephew is a sociopath. Growing up he would torture my cat, throwing lighted matches into her bed while she was resting. He would break and hide my mother's belongings and lie about it. One day, she caught him hiding the broken pieces of a porcelain figurine with the other missing objects. He lied to his parents accusing her of hitting him. He came to live with me when he started college. For six months I worked hard trying to make him feel at home. I helped him with his college work, and to get a job. For months I was lied and manipulated. I defended him when his boss accused him of lacking respect and attendance. I believed him when I accused of starting fights, drinking and smoking pot in campus. I even offered to pay for a week's vacation once the semester was over to celebrate his good grades, or at least the good grades he made me believe on. At last I found out he had quit college, had no job and had spent the vacation money. He just turned twenty years old. When I told him that he needed to keep a job and/or study if he wanted to stay with me he moved in with his current girlfriend and told everybody, including my family, that I had thrown him out of my house. Unfortunately they believe him. When I confronted him about his lies he smiled and said nothing.
I have known just one sociopath, and he is among the top 10 people from my 72 years whom I won't forget. Al briefly changed everything in my family's life and my small business circle with his great charm, his earnest persuasiveness, his expert lies, his scheming manipulations, and finally his very destructive victory. He was an evil guy, but I have to admire his great skill in sculpting his world to suit his plans and fulfill his wishes. I'm not sure why I want to write this story. Maybe it's just to get it out of my system after all of these forty years. But it might perhaps contribute to the overall understanding of sociopathic behavior.
I'm a little concerned that some people may be labeling everyone who has treated them badly as a “sociopath.” Here are some examples of sociopathic behavior: 1. A member of the family develops a nose bleed. The sociopath's first reaction: :How dare you bleed on my carpet?” 2. Husband faints in wife's presence. Her sociopathic reaction as she steps over his body: “Hell! That means I'll have to collect the kids from school today.” 3. Mother makes singularly vile false allegations, such as rape, against her own son and calls the police. When the police point out there's no evidence to support her accusation, she says, “But I feel just oh-so-violated,” as if that constituted evidence. 4. Teenage daughter is diagnosed as suffering from schizophrenia. When the psychiatrist orders inpatient treatment at a mental hospital with a special unit for te
enagers, the sociopathic mother tries to prevent her going to hospital. When the father takes their daughter to the mental hospital, the mother threatens to abduct her! She tries to phone her daughter in hospital daily and subjects her to emotional blackmail.
A number of mind-controlling cult leaders may exhibit many of the behavioral characteristics of a sociopath – an outstanding ability to charm and seduce followers. Since they appear apparently normal, they are not easily recognizable as deviant or disturbed. Although only a trained professional can make a diagnosis of whether or not someone is a sociopath, it is important to be able to recognize the personality type in order to avoid further abuse.
I am kind of one… just so y'all know, it's not so much fun being one either. I read that sentence up there, “Incapable of real human attachment to another.” I don't even know what that is, I see it, I approximate it… It's like being outside a door looking through a dirty window and watching re-runs of people I've seen in love or with children or with friends, and scratching, sometimes banging at the glass to get in and… nothing. I'm fond of people in every sense of the word, their little quirks and habits, the way they see life, except if they went away it wouldn't bother me much other than finding someone else to be fond of. I don't have friends; I only date military men because they're OK with only having a girlfriend for a couple months and I tell them in advance I won't wait for them… I don't know what else to do to limit the damage I inflict on others just as a result of them knowing me, short of moving to the mountains… but I still move between 2-5 times a year it's kind of hard walking around knowing I'll never have what i see making other people so happy and running when i can tell someone is getting close just because i don't want to hurt them more later down the road… I'd like it a lot to settle down, i WANT to be able to feel more with people, but it's hard to miss what you never had. i want what i THINK it would feel like… it'd be easy to give in and let someone stay because I'm so lonely… but hey, I've written enough, just know i try to be a responsible little sociopath, i won't ever get married or have kids, i practice safe sex, i won't stay in one city for long… everything you all take for granted i will never let myself have just because i WANT to take it for granted. being like this won't go away so hopefully i can limit the amount of hate thrown my way by limiting my interaction with people, i don't know what else to do. and you all might not believe this, but i am sorry, hopefully i can speak for the other people who have damaged your lives.

Comment:

The above testimony is clearly not indicative of a sociopath because they seem to make efforts to keep from harming others, even if it doesn't benefit themselves.

A sociopath does not have to be a person that is constantly in and out of jail, failing in being able to keep a job, nor constantly being broke. Sociopath's can be wealthy, have a great history in the work place and have never had any run in with the police. What they do have is the ability to manipulate each situation to where nothing is their fault. They are quick to give praise to someone, but use that as another way to draw them further under their control. They truly have no capacity to believe that anything they have ever done is wrong – even when caught in a bold faced lie.

They don't pre-plan their “sociopathness” and how it will effect what they want – sociopath's are naturally that way. They are the way they are – to everyone in their lives – from when they were a child, throughout their entire lives. They do not have the ability to change the way they are. They may “mellow” as they age, but their need to have control over others, the need to be impulsive, their feelings that, even in lying, they never do anything wrong, and their ability to charm everyone they think they need to charm, does not leave them as they age.
It's also very hard for someone involved with a sociopath to be able to see what they know is happening, even after catching the sociopath in the lies and manipulation. It's incredibly hard to decide to leave a sociopath, as well as stay away from that sociopath.

The American Medical Association and American Psychological Society does not recognize any patient as a sociopath. A patient that would be called a sociopath in the vernacular most likely suffer from Antisocial Personality Disorder.

So, ask yourself. Is he/she scatterbrained and flighty? Does he have trouble in concentrating on more than one thing at a time, to the point that he can endanger his safety or that of others? Does he fly into a rage at the slightest thing? Is he controlling and manipulative? Does he “have to” get rough to have sex? Does he lie a lot, or, if not, at least does he twist and slant the truth and leave out crucial details?

Even if it's “yes” to most of these things, it could be something else.

Numerous websites on the Internet will tell you that research using brain scanning technology has recently revealed that the brain of a psychopath functions and processes information differently.

Are you involved with a psychopath (extreme sociopath)? You may not know because they can be very charming and friendly and can appear to be altruistic, until you get close and inevitably they do something threatening or immoral and then you must set limits that disappoint them. The near-constant state of frustration and dissatisfaction felt by a true psychopath is the source of not only their rages but those eerie, on-and-off-like-a-faucet tears. (Yes, tears are seen even in some men, though of course still more common in children and women.)

But, don't assume anyone is a psychopath based only on the person's apparent attitude and behavior. It is far more complex than that, including factors in the pattern of the person's life and many other characteristics. Please don't go around assuming or calling someone a psychopath just because he/she may have some of the warning signs. Get a professional opinion from a qualified mental health professional if you think you are involved with a psychopath. And then ask what to do, not only for the psychopath but for yourself, because being involved with a psychopath is risky.

Also:

Bizarre brain waves from some parts of the brain and none from some other parts; epileptic seizures (usually grand mal); speech impediments caused by a chaotic way of storing information in the brain; low blood-pressure (hypotension); bradycardia (low heart rate); pseudoneurolepsy (falling asleep suddenly); a type of night-blindness caused by constriction of the pupils; sleep apnea; sleepwalking (somnambulism); other sleep disturbances; migraine or cluster-headaches with visual 'auras'; varying degrees of incontinence; lethargy OR wild excitement; unexpected sexual arousal; loss of sense of taste or smell; trouble with depth perception; inability to recognize facial expressions; inability to concentrate on more than one thing at a time; occasional inability to concentrate on anything at all; certain types of muscle spasticity or non-responsive reflexes associated with a peripheral neuropathy if present.

Many people without ASPD can have any of these problems; without the key psychiatric markers for ASPD, these physical manifestations alone CANNOT be used as evidence of the diagnosis. (For example, Borderline Personality Disorder, which is in most ways the opposite of ASPD, can cause hyperalertness and very fast talking, behavior that also resembles that of a sociopath in a temporary state of excitement.)

The general rule is that the autonomic nervous system of people with some Axis II personali
ty disorders does not respond normally; in BPD the sympathetic nervous system (Fight-or-Flight) is overreactive; in ASPD it is usually (though not always) underreactive.

Most of the physical problems a sociopath exhibits are neurologically based.

They do not have the ability to change the way they are. They may “mellow” as they age, or burn out, but their need to have control over others, the need to be impulsive, their feelings that, even in lying, they never do anything wrong, and their ability to charm everyone they think they need to charm, does not leave them as they age. It's also very hard for someone involved with a sociopath to be able to see what they know is happening, even after catching the sociopath in the lies and manipulation. It's incredibly hard to decide to leave a sociopath, as well as stay away from that sociopath.

One of the reasons for the above is that people can sense that the sociopath needs something, and they keep trying to give it and the sociopath/psychopath keeps trying to take it. But the sociopath cannot truly take in that healing energy of human contact. So, the sociopath becomes frustrated and instead looks to take unfair advantage. And the caregiver may give until it does him/her damage. This won't help anyone: leave therapy to the professionals.

Mentally ill people, no matter how much trouble they cause, are sick, not possessed. And, yes, some psychopaths do terrible things, forfeiting their lives in the process. But most of them do not kill. They are, however, bitter and rageful, and often cause deep emotional suffering for others. The BEHAVIOR is evil, however the people are just what they are.

Psychopaths/Sociopaths are the way they are because, from birth onward, the brain of a sociopath stores learning information in a random, chaotic way instead of in the usual designated places in the cerebral cortex.

Part of this involves lack of crucial neurotransmitters, but as of yet no one knows whether this lack is caused BY the brain abnormality or is the cause OF it. It's probably the former. Another probable cause is the chronic under-arousal of the cerebral cortex of a true psychopath.

Since their information — including emotional information — is scattered all over both brain hemispheres, it takes too long for the brain to retrieve and process information, and the entire process of socialization becomes so ponderous that ultimately it fails. (See the book “Without Conscience” by Robert Hare, PhD.)

Since the entire cerebral cortex of a sociopath is almost never at a normal level of alertness (their waking brain waves resemble the waves of a normal person in a light sleep, alpha waves), this may be the crucial deficiency that cripples the developing child's ability to develop many aspects of the human mind. As the child grows, some of the basic mental and emotional skills the rest of the world takes so for granted never develop, and crucial among these is the thing called conscience. That one never develops at all.

Some people may envy the apparent calm of a sociopath, but their existence is misery. They cannot connect with other human beings, and as babies they are so uncomfortable being held that they fight to wriggle free of all but the most basic necessary contact. Their heartbroken parents often blame themselves or the child, never knowing that what is really wrong with the child is in his or her brain.

Under the almost somnolent calm sociopaths project is a constant sense of restlessness and lack of crucial fulfillment that is in truth nothing other than the basic need all people have to receive stimulation and support from others.

But a sociopath has no way of receiving this even if it's offered. The endless frustration of this, and a discomfort that they are utterly incapable of articulating or even really understanding, is the source of much of their chronic anger and aggression.

Plus, since they grow up in constant conflict with authority, they are most often bitterly angry and sometimes violent adults, brittle and combative under a thin veneer of charm.

Offer friendship, they appear to respond, but quickly discover that they can get nothing from it; they see the obvious pleasure of other people in such contact with each other, and they often seek to “even it up” by stealing what they can — material goods, or even human lives. They are constantly told how “bad” they are, and by adulthood, most of them believe it. And behave accordingly.

Sociopaths rarely feel true happiness. If they do, it is usually in the condition that some kind of intervention — such as one of the small number of medications made for other conditions that may also help somewhat with theirs — has taken place, and it will be fleeting. For all their frantic racing around, they are really very dead inside, and this is tragic beyond description.

There are stories of people diagnosed as sociopaths who did improve to some degree, with the most ceaseless and diligent help. But since the vast majority of this huge body of people (there are more than three hundred million sociopaths on Earth) cannot get that kind of attention, they turn to abusing those they envy, and often to crime. It is certainly vengeance: “If I can't have any of this, why should you?” This is the real reason sociopaths lash out at strong and kind people. No matter what they say, they know that inside, they are always empty and damaged beyond repair.

Only in neuroscience is there true hope for these incomplete people. The key lies in awakening the cerebral cortex of the brain, which is risky because sociopaths are much more prone to seizures than the rest of the population, and that — an uncontrolled blast of electrical discharge spreading through the brain and causing violent convulsions — is likely to be the first response from brain pathways that, after years or even decades of silence, are suddenly flooded with impulses.

But if the devices of neurosurgeons can be tweaked to avoid this shock, and all else related to this idea is workable, it's feasible that small electronic devices planted in the brain (these already exist, but are not yet being used for mental illness) could open up a closed connection.

That leaves us with the problem of whether a lifetime of scattered information can ever be set into order. Probably the best that could be hoped for would be a kind of retraining — like what is now done with stroke survivors and head injury patients — that would be both intensive and compensatory.

One of the things that would be necessary would be to try to socialize the person whose congenital birth defect made such a thing completely impossible before. With no knowledge of how to cope with the emotions the rest of the world has been dealing with all their lives, the recovering sociopath would be rendered as vulnerable as a baby. A person thus treated would never be fully normal, but the human brain is amazing in the way it adapts and continues to develop all through life. And given the utterly joyless and meaningless existence a sociopath leads, any improvement is better than none.
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