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Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 10 2012,04:59) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 09 2012,21:39)
Hi WIT,Don't you want to know what happened on day one first?
OK, on day 2, God created the atmosphere on planet Earth.God bless
Ed J
Wow. That was fast.So you admit that the bible has it wrong?
Here's what the bible says:
Quote Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. (Genesis 1:6-8) If you are contending that “firmament” is just a funny name for atmosphere, please tell me what body of water is above the atmosphere as described in this passage.
Let me save you some trouble. As an excerpt from here honestly points out:
Quote The notion that the sky was a vast solid dome seems to have been common among the ancient peoples whose ideas of cosmology have come down to us. Thus the Egyptians conceived the heavens to be an arched iron ceiling from which the stars were suspended by means of cables … That the Hebrews entertained similar ideas appears from numerous biblical passages. In the first account of the creation (Genesis 1) we read that God created a firmament to divide the upper or celestial from the lower or terrestrial waters. The Hebrew means something beaten or hammered out, and thus extended … . The notion of the solidity of the firmament is moreover expressed in such passages as Job 37:18, where reference is made incidentally to the heavens, which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass. The same is implied in the purpose attributed to God in creating the firmament, viz. to serve as a wall of separation between the upper and lower of water, it being conceived as supporting a vast celestial reservoir; and also in the account of the deluge (Genesis 7), where we read that the flood gates of heaven were opened, and shut up. … In conformity with these ideas, the writer of Genesis 1:14-20 represents God as setting the stars in the firmament of heaven, and the fowls are located beneath it, i.e. in the air as distinct from the firmament. On this point as on many others, the Bible simply reflects the current cosmological ideas and language of the time. Again, consider one simple question:
In what way does the “firmament” separate the water above from the water below?
Unless you think of the sky/firmament as a solid dome through which rain falls when holes are opened up, this passage makes absolutely no sense.
In other words, the bible is demonstrably wrong.
Case closed.
Hi WIT,Why do you blame the translators for not using the word “atmosphere”; that is a Greek word; or didn't you know that?
Here is the Definition of the Hebrew word: “an extended surface, expanse” …Does this not describe Earth's “atmosphere”?
No error there, try again.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd J,
Nice try, but you skipped over the most important point.
Quote Again, consider one simple question: In what way does the “firmament” separate the water above from the water below?
Don't dodge the question.
wit
Quote Again, consider one simple question: In what way does the “firmament” separate the water above from the water below?
Unless you think of the sky/firmament as a solid dome through which rain falls when holes are opened up, this passage makes absolutely no sense.
In other words, the bible is demonstrably wrong.
Case closed.
first let give some credit to the bible ,after all men like us still do not know much about there own environment,and so in their conclusions of miss understanding,are always wrong but like to believe they are right in the eyes of the ignorant,
so if we assume that the bible is right ,this would mean that God separate the waters above the earth (that was covering the earth)by those waters that would be laying lower than the earth,right ? yes
by doing that God had made a layer around the planet earth and this was protecting all live on earth,and so created the greenhouse were all was same climate no hard winter no hard summers,this was a perfect condition,no rain just a mist to water the plants,this is the place were Adam was put in , wen men and angel start to mix and corruption became great upon the earth ,God made the flood ,that his the waters that were put up in the air high up for the benefit of men now came down on him and took back its place and so covered the earth and kill all live that can not survive in water,
and 8 people that God helped to safety,
but by doing this God as to make changes to the earth and prepare it to swallow the excess of water ,and so created valleys and mountains,and also inflate the earth so that all the waters will now work in a new cycle ,the scriptures also saying that ones more time God will shake the foundation of the earth this to destroy all what is bad on it ,and also to prepare it for the new earth that he promised to give to those who believe in him.
science will never be able to destroy this events unless they use lies,and deceit ,
NOW THE CASE IS CLOSE
Pierre
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 10 2012,06:08) Ed J, Nice try, but you skipped over the most important point.
Quote Again, consider one simple question: In what way does the “firmament” separate the water above from the water below?
Don't dodge the question.
Hi WIT,Clouds generally have an altitude of between 6,000 and 20,000 feet.
I would say 6,000 feet is a separation, wouldn't you?
That's almost a mile, you know, WIT.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 10 2012,01:28) Hi WIT, Clouds generally have an altitude of between 6,000 and 20,000 feet.
I would say 6,000 feet is a separation, wouldn't you?
That's almost a mile, you know, WIT.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
So, the “firmament” is the space between the surface of the earth and the bottom of the clouds? Yes?Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 10 2012,07:01) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 10 2012,01:28) Hi WIT, Clouds generally have an altitude of between 6,000 and 20,000 feet.
I would say 6,000 feet is a separation, wouldn't you?
That's almost a mile, you know, WIT.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
So, the “firmament” is the space between the surface of the earth and the bottom of the clouds? Yes?
Hi WIT,The entire atmosphere.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgYour waffling Ed.
If the firmament is the entire atmosphere, where are “the waters which were above the firmament“?
Is the water in the firmament or above it?
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 09 2012,00:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 09 2012,12:48) Nope. I'm asking WHY the first cells would have “invented themselves” with a reproductive capability in the first place. It seems much more likely to me, that if your trillion to one fantasy about life creating itself happened at all, it would have been a one time thing, and when those life forms died out, it would have been the end of it.
But you're not only asking us to believe the trillion to one odds that it happened in the first place, you're asking us to believe the infinity to one odds that it not only happened once, but when it did, it happened by pure chance in a way that would let that first life reproduce itself indefinitely.
Is that “credible” enough for you?
Where did I claim that life “invented itself” or “created itself”?Please link to the post where I claimed that, or retract and apologise.
Stuart
So you can't actually address the point? You will AVOID the point because I was having a little fun with your “all things CREATED themselves” theory?
Stu, I'M SORRY that you can't take a joke. How's that?
Now……………ADDRESS THE POINT.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 10 2012,09:25) Your waffling Ed. If the firmament is the entire atmosphere, where are “the waters which were above the firmament“?
Is the water in the firmament or above it?
Hi WIT,In it, above it and below it.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 09 2012,11:59) Unless you think of the sky/firmament as a solid dome through which rain falls when holes are opened up, this passage makes absolutely no sense. In other words, the bible is demonstrably wrong.
Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space and hangs the earth on nothing.How long was it before men started to realize the earth was suspended in space, and not on the back of a turtle, or on pillars, etc?
I'd say Job was ahead of his time in this knowledge.
But WIT, many things in scripture are “dumbed down”, and made to be understandable for the people to whom God was talking. Jesus even dumbed it down for the Apostles. He made parables using things they knew about to explain things they didn't know about. He compared angels to wind, for example.
Even today, with Stu's vast, scientifically enlarged brain, do you think he'd have a clue if God actually told him the details of how He created all things?
50 years ago, God could have spoken to a scientifically trained prophet in terms of atoms. Today, He could speak a little about sub-atomic particles. In 100 years, He would be able to describe in even greater detail the creation process.
But this was 5000 years ago. God put the creation in terms the brains of that day could relate to.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 08 2012,20:35) Secondly, I am afraid that I can't possibly make up for your willful ignorance when it comes to evolution.
If you are unable to dumb it down and explain it to me, then what good are you?If I was the one defending evolution, then I'd know what I was talking about. All I'm doing here is asking questions that I think deserve and honest and simple answer.
If you know what YOU'RE talking about, then answer my points. If you don't know, then I fear you are a fool for defending something you can't even explain to a layman of above average intelligence.
To answer your question, I really don't know. I don't personally think the 6 days are six 24 hour periods. It could be 6 million years for all I know. And I don't know if God set natural selection in process or not. I would not put it past an all-knowing God to create His beings with the ability to be adaptable to climate and geographical changes, etc.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,10:06) All I'm doing here is asking questions that I think deserve and honest and simple answer.
No, what you are doing is inventing strawmen to attack.I'm not sure if there is a parallel in the opposite direction.
Let's say it could be that I ask you how you could worship such a monstrous god that actually made Abraham kill his son.
See what I am getting at? You would accuse me of being lacking in the basic knowledge that in fact Abraham did not kill his son. You are making the same kind of mistake when it comes to natural history. You need to learn first what would be a relevant point to make, not just lazily invent strawmen to attack.
Stuart
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,09:33) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 09 2012,00:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 09 2012,12:48) Nope. I'm asking WHY the first cells would have “invented themselves” with a reproductive capability in the first place. It seems much more likely to me, that if your trillion to one fantasy about life creating itself happened at all, it would have been a one time thing, and when those life forms died out, it would have been the end of it.
But you're not only asking us to believe the trillion to one odds that it happened in the first place, you're asking us to believe the infinity to one odds that it not only happened once, but when it did, it happened by pure chance in a way that would let that first life reproduce itself indefinitely.
Is that “credible” enough for you?
Where did I claim that life “invented itself” or “created itself”?Please link to the post where I claimed that, or retract and apologise.
Stuart
So you can't actually address the point? You will AVOID the point because I was having a little fun with your “all things CREATED themselves” theory?
Stu, I'M SORRY that you can't take a joke. How's that?
Now……………ADDRESS THE POINT.
Can I take that as an apology from you, that on this occasion you realise I never made those claims, that no scientific theory makes those claims and you putting those words in my mouth really rules out your own credibility?Thanks.
Now, what are you actually asking about? Perhaps you could have a go at just asking a question without telling me a wrong version of what you insist I must believe along with it.
Stuart
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,09:59) But WIT, many things in scripture are “dumbed down”, and made to be understandable for the people to whom God was talking. Jesus even dumbed it down for the Apostles. He made parables using things they knew about to explain things they didn't know about. He compared angels to wind, for example.
I think that you have it all wrong Mike.Jesus never “dumbed down” anyting to make it easier to understand.
The apostles never understood the parables of Jesus, and told him so.
Jesus then explained the parable to them and told them that the reason that he spoke in parables was so that no one could understand him. Of course, that could have been a parable as well since most Christians don't understand this.
Tim
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 10 2012,04:41) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 10 2012,09:25) Your waffling Ed. If the firmament is the entire atmosphere, where are “the waters which were above the firmament“?
Is the water in the firmament or above it?
Hi WIT,In it, above it and below it.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
You are really having trouble believing the bible aren't you, because that is NOT what the bible says. It says that the firmament separates the water above from the water below. The picture you paint does not include any separation of anything.In any case, since you insist on misreading the passage, I've got two related follow-up questions:
1) Why isn't there any water in space, (i.e. above the firmament/atmosphere)?
2) Where are the stars that God placed in our atmosphere, (i.e. in the firmament), as depicted on the fourth day of creation as recorded in the bible? And as a bonus, when did the sun and moon escape earth's atmosphere after God placed them there?
Genesis 1:14-18:
Quote Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night … . Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. … Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,04:59) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 09 2012,11:59) Unless you think of the sky/firmament as a solid dome through which rain falls when holes are opened up, this passage makes absolutely no sense. In other words, the bible is demonstrably wrong.
Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space and hangs the earth on nothing.How long was it before men started to realize the earth was suspended in space, and not on the back of a turtle, or on pillars, etc?
I'd say Job was ahead of his time in this knowledge.
But WIT, many things in scripture are “dumbed down”, and made to be understandable for the people to whom God was talking. Jesus even dumbed it down for the Apostles. He made parables using things they knew about to explain things they didn't know about. He compared angels to wind, for example.
Even today, with Stu's vast, scientifically enlarged brain, do you think he'd have a clue if God actually told him the details of how He created all things?
50 years ago, God could have spoken to a scientifically trained prophet in terms of atoms. Today, He could speak a little about sub-atomic particles. In 100 years, He would be able to describe in even greater detail the creation process.
But this was 5000 years ago. God put the creation in terms the brains of that day could relate to.
Nice magic trick. (“Hey, don't look at my assistant stepping out of the box. Look over here!”)Before we get to Job, why don't we establish exactly what the universe looked like according to Genesis, (i.e. the most pertinent passage about biblical cosmology). That will give us the context for how to interpret that Job verse.
So, can you explain what happened on Day 2?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,05:06) If you know what YOU'RE talking about, then answer my points. If you don't know, then I fear you are a fool for defending something you can't even explain to a layman of above average intelligence.
For someone with “above average intelligence”, you have demonstrated a surprising inability to recognize the answers that I did give you.You wanted to know about fish crawling out of the sea to become cacti. I gave you references to two fish that do crawl out of the sea, and you didn't even acknowledge it. Otherwise, your question was nonsensical. Fish did not evolve into cacti, according to evolutionary theory. I pointed you to some resources to help correct your complete misunderstanding of evolutionary theory, but you have not shown any indication that you made any attempts to follow up on those leads.
As I said, as long as your questions are insincere, which you have clearly demonstrated that they are, then responding to them is pointless.
But, there is a larger point that you keep missing. My knowledge and understanding of evolution is cursory and incomplete because it's NOT critical to my worldview. You seem to think that it's a contest between evolution and the bible, but it's not. They can BOTH be wrong. Let me repeat that since you keep missing it. Evolution could be discredited tomorrow, and the bible would still be wrong and unreliable.
For example, the bible says that on Day 2 of creation that God created the firmament to separate the water above from the water below. Given our present day understanding, that statement makes absolutely no sense. But, for ancient people, who all believed in a dome covered flat earth, it made perfect sense. They were wrong, and the bible contains their wrong notions about this (along with a number of other things).
Your bible needs to be defended on its own merits. Even if you were able to prove evolution to be wrong, it would not give the bible credibility. It would simply discredit evolution.
Does your “above average intelligence” comprehend this?
You wrote:
Quote To answer your question, I really don't know. I don't personally think the 6 days are six 24 hour periods. It could be 6 million years for all I know. And I don't know if God set natural selection in process or not. I would not put it past an all-knowing God to create His beings with the ability to be adaptable to climate and geographical changes, etc. So you don't take the creation account literally? If not, why not?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 11 2012,09:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2012,05:06) If you know what YOU'RE talking about, then answer my points. If you don't know, then I fear you are a fool for defending something you can't even explain to a layman of above average intelligence.
For someone with “above average intelligence”, you have demonstrated a surprising inability to recognize the answers that I did give you.You wanted to know about fish crawling out of the sea to become cacti. I gave you references to two fish that do crawl out of the sea, and you didn't even acknowledge it. Otherwise, your question was nonsensical. Fish did not evolve into cacti, according to evolutionary theory. I pointed you to some resources to help correct your complete misunderstanding of evolutionary theory, but you have not shown any indication that you made any attempts to follow up on those leads.
As I said, as long as your questions are insincere, which you have clearly demonstrated that they are, then responding to them is pointless.
But, there is a larger point that you keep missing. My knowledge and understanding of evolution is cursory and incomplete because it's NOT critical to my worldview. You seem to think that it's a contest between evolution and the bible, but it's not. They can BOTH be wrong. Let me repeat that since you keep missing it. Evolution could be discredited tomorrow, and the bible would still be wrong and unreliable.
For example, the bible says that on Day 2 of creation that God created the firmament to separate the water above from the water below. Given our present day understanding, that statement makes absolutely no sense. But, for ancient people, who all believed in a dome covered flat earth, it made perfect sense. They were wrong, and the bible contains their wrong notions about this (along with a number of other things).
Your bible needs to be defended on its own merits. Even if you were able to prove evolution to be wrong, it would not give the bible credibility. It would simply discredit evolution.
Does your “above average intelligence” comprehend this?
You wrote:
Quote To answer your question, I really don't know. I don't personally think the 6 days are six 24 hour periods. It could be 6 million years for all I know. And I don't know if God set natural selection in process or not. I would not put it past an all-knowing God to create His beings with the ability to be adaptable to climate and geographical changes, etc. So you don't take the creation account literally? If not, why not?
witQuote Even if you were able to prove evolution to be wrong, it would not give the bible credibility. and so the day that God will make him known to all with out a doubt, it will definitively not save you either
Pierre
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 11 2012,01:13) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 10 2012,04:41) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 10 2012,09:25) Your waffling Ed. If the firmament is the entire atmosphere, where are “the waters which were above the firmament“?
Is the water in the firmament or above it?
Hi WIT,In it, above it and below it.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
You are really having trouble believing the bible aren't you, because that is NOT what the bible says. It says that the firmament separates the water above from the water below. The picture you paint does not include any separation of anything.In any case, since you insist on misreading the passage, I've got two related follow-up questions:
1) Why isn't there any water in space, (i.e. above the firmament/atmosphere)?
2) Where are the stars that God placed in our atmosphere, (i.e. in the firmament), as depicted on the fourth day of creation as recorded in the bible? And as a bonus, when did the sun and moon escape earth's atmosphere after God placed them there?
Genesis 1:14-18:
Quote Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night … . Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. …
Hi WIT,When you look up from Earth, there is a separation of the waters above from the waters below.
We have already discussed this, the separation of the waters above is a mile to three miles.1) There is, they are called 'comets'.
2) We look through Earths atmosphere to see the stars.
Our sun and our moon were never in earths atmosphere.
Keep asking questions WIT, that's how we learn!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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