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Hi Wakeup,
I'll spell it out a little clearer for our brother Mike.
God sends us saviors BUT HE DOES NOT SEND US gods, PERIOD! …this is the point… NO gods!
So you see Mike, your “saviors” analogy falls flat on the face to “Bible Truth”(117).
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 31 2012,12:10) Quote (david @ July 31 2012,11:38) Quote (Ed J @ July 31 2012,03:44) Quote (david @ July 30 2012,18:17) Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2012,07:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2012,04:51) Hi Ed, what does this verse mean to you? “Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there an elohim beside me? yea,
there is NO elohim; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)What does it mean for Jehovah to say there are no other elohim, when we know from scripture that there are many?
Please explain.
Hi Mike,God (not being bound by time) knew that the English “AKJV Bible” would refine his message of no other gods.
Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed, are you suggesting that the Bible was essentially wrong, until English came along? I'm not sure what you are trying to say.When you say: “refine his message of no other gods,” what do you mean?
Hi David,“Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth,
even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.” (Jeremiah 10:11)Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,could you explain what you are trying to say using plain language.
See my previous post, David.
Ed, can you really not explain what you mean?or, is it a secret?
Or, does it just not make sense, so you don't wish to actually discuss it?
I'm simply asking for you to say what you mean in plain English, not riddles or scriptures that in fact don't explain what you seem to be suggesting.
Hi David, no secret.
There are no other gods – all the other gods are idols.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgIn the Bible, we have certain ones called by the word “savior.” It is simply a word that means one who saves.
So, God is a savior by virtue of the fact that he provided his son as a ransom sacrifice.
His son is a savior because he is the one that died for us.
As well, certain men in the Bible were called saviors because of their saving acts.And yet, the scripture cannot be nullified, where it says: “BESIDES ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR.”
Clearly, the Bible shows that others were rightly called “savior,” so, what does it mean?
Similarly, there are many who are called “god” in the Bible. And yet, there is only one “true” God. Does this mean that the angels are false gods, or that moses was a false god? No, just as the ones that saved truly and accurately called “saviors,” these ones were rightly called “gods.”
These are just words. They have meanings. 'gods' means mighty ones. savior means one who saves.
The problem comes when we begin to use them as titles and assign those titles to specific ones. Since Jehovah is called “god” so often, we naturally think of him when we see the word. Yet, “god” does not mean “Jehovah.” It is a word that is descriptive and has meaning. And so, it is rightly applied to others who were “mighty, powerful, strong” in the Bible. The word fits them. And yet, we have only one “true” God. How so? Because he is “god” in the fullest sense. He is “mighty” in the fullest sense. He is All mighty.
COMPARED to him, no one is a god. While the angels might be “mighty ones” to us, compared to Jehovah, they are not mighty, not gods. But compared to us, they are.
So, when it says he is the only true God, it does not have to mean that every other one to whom the word “god” is applied is a false god, as if Moses was a false god, or as if the angels are false gods. The word “true” does not mean the opposite of false. The word “true” can be used in another sense, as in: “You are a true friend.” This does not mean my other friends are false friends. It means that this person displays the qualities of a friend to the highest degree. (just as Jehovah carries the qualities of the word 'god” to the highest degree.)
So, getting back to the thread topic, there are “many gods.” “god” is just a word that means “mighty one, powerful one, strong one.” At least, that is how it is used in the Bible as a whole. Today, of course, if you check a dictionary it might say that “god” is “the heavenly father, creator, etc.” But, how does that definition fit when applied in ALL the uses in the Bible (Moses, angels, Satan, Jesus,)?
david
Quote Hi David, no secret. There are no other gods – all the other gods are idols.
1. So, are you saying that Moses was being called an idol?
2. When the angels were called “gods” were they being idols?
3. And what of Jesus?
Quote (david @ July 31 2012,16:50) Quote Hi David, no secret. There are no other gods – all the other gods are idols.
1. So, are you saying that Moses was being called an idol?
2. When the angels were called “gods” were they being idols?
3. And what of Jesus?
many troubles can be solved quickly by defining the term.I have defined how I understand the word “god” as used in the Bible:
“mighty one, powerful one, strong one.”
How would you define it Ed, as understood in the light of the Bible?
Quote (david @ July 31 2012,16:50) Quote Hi David, no secret. There are no other gods – all the other gods are idols.
1. So, are you saying that Moses was being called an idol?
2. When the angels were called “gods” were they being idols?
3. And what of Jesus?
Hi David,1) Pharaoh saw Moses instead of God.
2) There called “Eloheem”, not “God”.
3) God's Son
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ July 31 2012,16:52)
many troubles can be solved quickly by defining the term.I have defined how I understand the word “god” as used in the Bible:
“mighty one, powerful one, strong one.”
How would you define it Ed, as understood in the light of the Bible?
Hi David,Creator of the universe – father to believers – mightiest of all to those who consider God an enemy.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 31 2012,12:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2012,10:55) Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2012,17:04) Hi Mike, Do you include Jesus in Jer.10:11?
Jer 10 is clearly speaking about man-made idols (read verses 3-9), which are no elohim at all, Ed.
EXACTLY my point. …thanks for spelling it out!
I'd like to make clear that the idols of wood and stone were of course not mighty and had no power. Yet, those worshipping them considered them as mighty and powerful. Those worshiping them considered them as gods. Yet, they were not mighty ones, so how could they be gods?This is why the Bible writer calls them false gods.
Despite being viewed as powerful ones, these “gods” were really not gods at all, not mighty ones at all. And hence, false gods.
It's so easy to also say: they were false gods because they were not the true God. But this isn't entirely logical. Jesus isn't the true God, and neither are the angels, but that doesn't make them false gods. So, it seems more wholey accurate to say that they were false gods because, although viewed as mighty ones, they were not.
Quote (Ed J @ July 31 2012,17:05) Quote (david @ July 31 2012,16:52)
many troubles can be solved quickly by defining the term.I have defined how I understand the word “god” as used in the Bible:
“mighty one, powerful one, strong one.”
How would you define it Ed, as understood in the light of the Bible?
Hi David,Creator of the universe – father to believers – mightiest of all to those who consider God an enemy.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
First, you should never use the word you are defining in the definition itself. it is confusing.Second, your definition certainly does not fit many of the Bible uses of that word. There would be many instances where if you inserted your definition where the word “god” or “gods” appears, where it wouldn't make sense at all.
Ex: “Satan is the god of this system of things.”
With your definition: Satan is the “creator of the universe…”
It doesn't fit, does it?
Ed's definition of “god.”
Quote Creator of the universe – father to believers – mightiest of all to those who consider God an enemy. So, breaking it down, and factoring for X:
“Creator of the universe – father to believers – mightiest of all to those who consider [Creator of the universe – father to believers – mightiest of all to those who consider God an enemy] an enemy.”
So, I inserted the definition of “god” into the definition itself where you used the word “god.” I could do this to infinity, but I think we understand that it is odd to include the word you are defining in the definition itself.
Ed, I think we (you and Mike, because I am sleeping now) have to work on your definition of “god.”
It seems inconsistent with much of the Bible. Inconsistencies often are a clue that something might be wrong with our beliefs.
Maybe I should ask this again and be even more clear:
I'm asking for your definition of the word “god” as used in the Bible as a whole, the general meaning of the word, and not who the word is specifically given as a title 99% of the time that the word is used.
Your definition:
Creator of the universe – father to believers – mightiest of all to those who consider God an enemy.
I think we should just go with this as being your definition:
Creator of the universe – father to believers
If you want to include the rest, you should figure out a way to take the word “god” out of the definition of “god.” Either way, this is a good starting point: “creator of the universe – father to believers”
My question to all:
Is this consistent with the Bible as a whole?Is this better?
Creator of the universe – father to believers – mightiest of all to those who consider Him an enemy.
Quote (david @ July 31 2012,17:17) Is this consistent with the Bible as a whole?
Hi David,Yes, I would say so.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ July 31 2012,17:17) Ed, I think we (you and Mike, because I am sleeping now) have to work on your definition of “god.” It seems inconsistent with much of the Bible. Inconsistencies often are a clue that something might be wrong with our beliefs.
Maybe I should ask this again and be even more clear:
I'm asking for your definition of the word “god” as used in the Bible as a whole, the general meaning of the word, and not who the word is specifically given as a title 99% of the time that the word is used.
Your definition:
Creator of the universe – father to believers – mightiest of all to those who consider God an enemy.
I think we should just go with this as being your definition:
Creator of the universe – father to believers
If you want to include the rest, you should figure out a way to take the word “god” out of the definition of “god.” Either way, this is a good starting point: “creator of the universe – father to believers”
My question to all:
Is this consistent with the Bible as a whole?
David.Anything can be a god:mountains rivers,animals,trees,planets.the forest,monkeys,money.sports.
It depends on the person worshipping what is in his heart.The most popular God I think is money, success,and power.
These are only some of the gods.wakeup.
Quote David. Anything can be a god:mountains rivers,animals,trees,planets.the forest,monkeys,money.sports.
Maybe there are different ways of looking at it.
Anything can be worshiped AS a god, or viewed AS a god, or even believed to be a “god,” but this does not make it a god. The idol “gods” were not real gods, but were “false gods,” having no power, or true godship. Yet, they were viewed as “gods” by those that worshiped them.
And while a monkey might be a “god” to a fly, a monkey cannot really be a “god” (mighty one) to a gorilla, for example. A gorilla would knock the monkey to the ground and step on him. Of course, a delusional gorilla could view a monkey as a god. But he would be mistaken. A gorilla viewing a monkey as a god does not in fact make a monkey a god. It makes the monkey a god TO THE GORILLA. (Again, it's relative)
I realize that anything that a person worships, they in essense, turn into their god, since that thing is taking the place of what should be their God, the Creator. However, that thing (their stomach, or food, for example) is not in fact a “god” just because it is taking the place of God, but their stomach becomes their God because of the great power it has over them. If a person's appetite is so great that it is in effect worshipped or treated like God, then it has become their God, but its not just because they are essentially worshiping it, but also because it (their stomach) has become a mighty one, a powerful one, ie: “a god” TO THEM.
Quote (Ed J @ July 31 2012,17:25) Quote (david @ July 31 2012,17:17) Is this consistent with the Bible as a whole?
Hi David,Yes, I would say so.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,So, if we inserted your definition:
Creator of the universe – father to believers – mightiest of all to those who consider Him an enemy.
…if we inserted this where the word “god” appears in the Bible, it would make sense? Or, would it only make sense 99% of the time, when it is referring to Jehovah?
I would like you to find a definition that fits for “god” not only when it applies to the “creator of the universe” but a definition that can actually be fit to the word “god” in every instance that it is used in the Bible.
Do you believe your definition does this?
Ed, I think I already gave this as an example, but when 1 Cor 4:4 (or maybe 2 cor….no, I think 1 cor) says: “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers…,”
1. were you thinking this refers to your definition (Jehovah)
2. if not, how does your definition apply to this instance were “god” is used?Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2012,19:33) God sends us saviors BUT HE DOES NOT SEND US gods, PERIOD! …this is the point… NO gods! So you see Mike, your “saviors” analogy falls flat on the face
So APART from Jehovah, there really is no savior, because no being would have the power to save even one hair on their head if that power was not given by Jehovah in the first place, right?Now, what does “APART from me, there is no elohim” mean?
(This post is also for Wakeup, since it also addresses his last post to me.)
Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2012,19:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2012,10:55) Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2012,17:04) Hi Mike, Do you include Jesus in Jer.10:11?
Jer 10 is clearly speaking about man-made idols (read verses 3-9), which are no elohim at all, Ed.
EXACTLY my point. …thanks for spelling it out!
Okay, so we agree that man made idols are not elohim – even though they are thought to be by those who made and worshipped them.But try this one on for size:
2 Kings 3:27
Then he took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. The wrath against Israel was great; they withdrew and returned to their own land.Ed, the god of the Moabites was Chemosh. Who do YOU think the king sacrificed his son to? And who do YOU think brought wrath upon the Israelites after this sacrifice? Do you suppose Chemosh was made of wood and stone, yet was able to bring wrath down upon Israel? Or do you think it was Jehovah Himself, who honored the pagan sacrifice of the Moabite king, and brought wrath down upon His own chosen nation?
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