As indeed there are many gods&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 29 2012,06:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 29 2012,06:47)

So then you know that when Jehovah says, “apart from me there is no elohim“, it does not mean that Jehovah is LITERALLY the ONLY elohim in existence, right?

Hi Mike,

God not being bound by time knew that “English” would refine his message – so no.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I do not understand why you think that God would pick the most messed up language on the planet to refine his massage.

July 30, 2012 at 7:17 am#307616

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2012,07:32)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2012,04:51)

Hi Ed, what does this verse mean to you?

“Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there an elohim beside me? yea,
there is NO elohim; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

What does it mean for Jehovah to say there are no other elohim, when we know from scripture that there are many?

Please explain.

Hi Mike,

God (not being bound by time) knew that the English “AKJV Bible” would refine his message of no other gods.
Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed, are you suggesting that the Bible was essentially wrong, until English came along? I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

When you say: “refine his message of no other gods,” what do you mean?

July 30, 2012 at 10:02 am#307628

Wakeup

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2012,11:54)

Quote (Wakeup @ July 29 2012,17:21)

EdJ.

IS THERE ANY GOD BESIDE ME? NO THERE IS NO GOD:
ARE YOU ARGUING WITH GOD BY SAYING; YES THERE ARE OTHER GODS? YES/NO.

What do you make of that verse, Wakeup? How can God say there are no other ELOHIM, when scripture is loaded with those whom even HE calls “elohim”?

I understand it as an emphatic statement, like Jeff Gordon saying, “There are no other race car drivers but me” – meaning he is the BEST, not LITERALLY the ONLY one.

MikeB.

Who created all? is it not God,by his breath(spoken word)?
Can anyone name a god that has created anything anywhere? no, even evil comes from God.agree?

Yes;the Are are many.many Gods man HAS CREATED FOR THEM SELVES IS THIS TRUE OR NOT?

Amongst all these gods that man has created,God is the God of all those gods,for he even created all: such as the bird gods,the elephant gods,the snake gods,the mountain gods,the devil god; the planet gods,you name it.

But in truth: there is only ONE TRUE GOD.
JESUS IS HE THAT PROCEEDED OUT OF GOD; THE WORD OF GOD.

John16:27. For the Father himself loveth you,because ye have love me and have believed that; I CAME -OUT- FROM GOD.

8:42.–for I proceeded forth and came from God—

wakeup.

July 30, 2012 at 11:12 am#307632

jammin

Participant

people cant accept that GOD has a son and his son is like him. they have the same nature. Christ is God just like his father. he is the exact image of the invisible God.
the Jews cant accept that truth and until today many are not believing this truth.

a god is not God.

the father is God and not god
the son is God and not god

July 30, 2012 at 4:44 pm#307638

Participant

Quote (david @ July 30 2012,18:17)

Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2012,07:32)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2012,04:51)

Hi Ed, what does this verse mean to you?

“Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there an elohim beside me? yea,
there is NO elohim; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

What does it mean for Jehovah to say there are no other elohim, when we know from scripture that there are many?

Please explain.

Hi Mike,

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed, are you suggesting that the Bible was essentially wrong, until English came along? I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

When you say: “refine his message of no other gods,” what do you mean?

Hi David,

“Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth,
even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.” (Jeremiah 10:11)

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org

July 30, 2012 at 10:36 pm#307661

Blocked

Quote (david @ July 30 2012,01:12)

……..people have come to think that “god” means Jehovah, or that God means “creator” or “father” etc.

This is a great part that adds to the confusion of the trinity belief.

I agree 100% with your post, David. I'm here to TRY to set the record straight.

(You'll notice that I got no intelligible answer from either Ed or Wakeup about Isaiah 44:8. But Wakeup has just posted in another thread about how we all need to listen and learn, and not run away as though we're afraid of the truth because it's different than what we've been taught. I'm about to see if he will put his money where his mouth is.)

July 30, 2012 at 10:42 pm#307665

Blocked

Wakeup and Ed,

“Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there an elohim beside me? yea,
there is NO elohim; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

What does it mean for Jehovah to say there are no other elohim, when we know from scripture that there are many?

I personally understand it as an emphatic statement, like Jeff Gordon saying, “There are no other race car drivers but me” – meaning he is the BEST, not LITERALLY the ONLY one. But what do YOU GUYS think it means?

(Wakeup, please DIRECTLY address the question, without veering off into who the Word is, and without posting a novel about the Bible as a whole. I just want an honest answer to my question – nothing more.)

July 30, 2012 at 10:53 pm#307670

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 29 2012,14:55)

Hi Mike, what does this verse mean to you? …No meaning?

“Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there 'a God' beside me? yea,
there is NO God; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

that quotarion his on Gods reccord of what he did with Israel the nation ,out of Egypt and so on

July 30, 2012 at 11:00 pm#307673

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2012,09:42)

Ed,

What does it mean for Jehovah to say there are no other elohim, when we know from scripture that there are many?

Hi Mike, answer…

“Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth,
even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.” (Jeremiah 10:11)
Jer.10:11 indicates that they were never really 'gods' in the sense we are talking about.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 30, 2012 at 11:04 pm#307674

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 31 2012,10:00)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2012,09:42)

Ed,

What does it mean for Jehovah to say there are no other elohim, when we know from scripture that there are many?

Hi Mike, answer…

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Mike,

Do you include Jesus in Jer.10:11? (Pierre also)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 30, 2012 at 11:23 pm#307677

Wakeup

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2012,09:42)

Wakeup and Ed,

“Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there an elohim beside me? yea,
there is NO elohim; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

What does it mean for Jehovah to say there are no other elohim, when we know from scripture that there are many?

Mike B.

Does not God himself told us?He is telling us,not asking us.
Beside me there is no saviour.
Is there a God beside me? no there is no God.

So why still trying to work out answers? Is Gods statement not sufficient for you?

wakeup.

July 30, 2012 at 11:55 pm#307684

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2012,17:04)

Hi Mike,

Do you include Jesus in Jer.10:11?

Jer 10 is clearly speaking about man-made idols (read verses 3-9), which are no elohim at all, Ed.

Now on the other hand, many angels have been called “elohim”. So do YOU understand Jer 10:11 to be saying beings like Michael the archangel and Jesus will destroyed?

Here is that verse in a couple other translations:

NET ©
You people of Israel should tell those nations this: ‘These gods did not make heaven and earth. They will disappear from the earth and from under the heavens.’

NIV ©
“Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’”

Notice that these translations have the right idea – that Jehovah is speaking about the man-made idols He had just described in the last 9 verses – hence the translation of THESE gods.

July 31, 2012 at 12:03 am#307685

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ July 30 2012,17:23)

Mike B.

Does not God himself told us?He is telling us,not asking us.
Beside me there is no saviour.
Is there a God beside me? no there is no God.

So why still trying to work out answers? Is Gods statement not sufficient for you?

wakeup.

I have so much to show you, Wakeup, that I'm not sure where to start. But since you mentioned “savior”, tell me what it means that Jesus is ALSO our Savior.

And tell me who Nehemiah was talking about here:

Nehemiah 9:27
So you handed them over to their enemies, who oppressed them. But when they were oppressed they cried out to you. From heaven you heard them, and in your great compassion you gave them saviors, who rescued them from the hand of their enemies.

Does this mean that God gave them HIMSELF? Or does it mean that God sent OTHER saviors?

How about this one:

Obadiah 1:21
Then saviors shall come to Mount Zion To judge the mountains of Esau, And the kingdom shall be the LORD’S.

Who are these “saviors”? God Himself?

July 31, 2012 at 12:34 am#307690

Participant

Einsteins law of relativity.

“Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there an elohim beside me? yea,
there is NO elohim; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

If I were God, I might well say that I don't know of any mighty ones (gods).

If I were the universe, I might well say that I know of nothing else that is large. I might say: “Is there anything big besides me? There is nothing big. I know of nothing big.”

Of course, to us, the earth is big. But to the universe the earth is almost non-existent, so insignificant, it is like a trillionth of a spec of dust…nothing. But to us, it's quite large.
To the Sun, the earth is small, very small. To the Moon, the earth is large.

So, that's relatively. Based on ones' own position, size, etc, they view others relative to that.

To the “Almighty God,” who else is mighty? Who else is “god” to him? No one. There is not one.

But, Jesus has a God. 5 times in scripture we are told this.

To us, the angels are gods (mighty ones.)

But to Jehovah, the angels are not gods, they are messengers, or spirits for service.

To an elephant, a mouse is small. To a gnat, a mouse is a giant.

Relativity.

ONCE WE UNDERSTAND THE WORD “GOD” (mighty one, strong one, powerful one) then the Bible makes a lot of sense, especially concerning gods and “false gods.”

Why are the gods false? It's not because they aren't Jehovah. It is because they aren't really gods at all. They aren't mighty at all. they are wood and stone, having no power or mightiness.

Is Satan a god (mighty one)? yes, the Bible says he is the god of this world. And, there are many scriptures that back up that he has a lot of power and mightyness over the world and people.

Is Satan a god to Jehovah? Obvously not.

THE OTHER PROBLEM IS THAT BECAUSE WE WORSHIP JEHOVAH GOD, PEOPLE GET CONFUSED AND THINK THAT A GOD IS ANYTHING THAT IS WORSHIPPED. And it's true that a person can worship anything, and essentially give it the worship that belongs to Jehovah God. However, a “god” isn't something that is worshiped. It's something that is a mighty one.

Was not Moses made a “god” to pharoah?

yes.

Was moses worshipped? Were the angels worshipped? No. They were relatively “mighty ones.”

To Jehovah, who is God?

No one. Because Jehovah alone is “all mighty.”

Why isn't this understandable?

July 31, 2012 at 12:37 am#307691

Participant

Quote

Beside me there is no saviour.

And there's also the God is “wise alone” scripture. Yet, others in the Bible are definitely said to be wise.

But I don't think we even have to go to this normal logic. If people just understood how relatively works and how they themselves use relativey when speaking, it would solve the issue.

July 31, 2012 at 12:38 am#307692

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 31 2012,03:44)

Quote (david @ July 30 2012,18:17)

Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2012,07:32)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2012,04:51)

Hi Ed, what does this verse mean to you?

“Ye are even my witnesses.
Is there an elohim beside me? yea,
there is NO elohim; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

What does it mean for Jehovah to say there are no other elohim, when we know from scripture that there are many?

Please explain.

Hi Mike,

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed, are you suggesting that the Bible was essentially wrong, until English came along? I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

When you say: “refine his message of no other gods,” what do you mean?

Hi David,

“Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth,
even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.” (Jeremiah 10:11)

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed,

could you explain what you are trying to say using plain language.

July 31, 2012 at 1:00 am#307694

Blocked

David, I enjoyed your post. It makes much sense, but you are wrong about one thing: We most definitely WILL have to go to the “wise alone” normal logic before this is over.

Here is a post I made for Nick a while back:

You seem to be able to accept that God is the “Ultimate King”, although there have been many lesser kings under Him. For example, David was King of Israel at the same time God was the Ultimate King of Israel. We could easily say that God is the “only true King” of Israel – meaning He is above any other king. That would not make David, His anointed, a “false king”, or a “so-called king”. It would merely emphasize that although David was also truly a King of Israel, God was still over him as the Ultimate King of Israel.

Or we could say that Israel has but ONE King, and there are no others. Again, this would not make David just disappear from history. Instead, it would be an emphatic way of declaring the Ultimacy of Jehovah' Kingship.

This is the same concept with the God of gods, and all the other gods He is the God of. Although there be many gods and lords, both in heaven and on earth, Jehovah is the Ultimate God and the Ultimate Lord. That doesn't make the other gods “false gods” or “so-called gods”. It merely emphasizes that, although these other gods do exist, Jehovah is over them all as the Ultimate God.

I think much of the problem (or stigma) results from our current, commonly accepted definition of “god”. Today, we understand the word “god” to be defining “The One Omniscient Creator of All Things” – and no one else. But that is never what the word meant in OT or NT times. The words “el” and “theos” referred to any one of many “mighty ones”, or “ones to be feared/revered”.

Even Deborah was a god, because she was the mighty leader of the nation of Israel. With God's help, she defeated the Canaanites, causing her to be a “mighty one”, or “one to be feared/revered”. No one in those days assumed that because she was a god that she was also “The One Omniscient Creator of All Things”. But today, if I were to called Deborah a god, everyone would be shouting at me, assuming I was calling her “The One Omniscient Creator of All Things”.

So, to truly understand the scriptures, one must “time travel” a little bit, and try to understand the words as they were meant THEN, as opposed to whatever they might mean to most people TODAY. One cannot sensibly say with today's understanding, “Satan is not a god, because he is not The One Omniscient Creator of All Things.” That would be to apply today's definition of “god” to a time in history when that definition simply didn't exist. After doing such a careless thing, we must then try to twist many scriptures to make them conform to the way we today understand the word “god”. And doing that causes us to have a twisted understanding of what the scriptures truly teach. We are then, in effect, doctoring the written word of God – trying to make it conform to our current definition of the word “god”.

People, there is and always has been but ONE Almighty Creator of All Things. But, as God's own written word attests, many of those created by that One are also “mighty ones”, or “ones to be feared/revered”, and therefore “gods”.

So yes, Satan IS a “lesser god”, who is not The Omniscient Creator of All Things. And Jesus, although also not being The Omniscient Creator of All Things, is also truly a god. These are but two of the many gods Jehovah is the God of.

If any of you cannot accept this teaching, then at least accept that it is scriptural. Accept that when I adhere to the scriptures and the meaning of “god” therein, I am not being a pagan who is inventing many gods to worship. I am not inventing “lesser gods” or “little gods” out of my own imagination, but instead speaking exactly according to the scriptures, using the Bible writers' definition of “god”, instead of the commonly accepted definition of today.

Remember that the titles “God of gods”, “God Most High”, and “God Almighty” would carry no meaning whatsoever had there not existed other lesser gods for Jehovah to be the God of, Higher than, and Mightier than.

This should get some things out in the open, but I am interested in taking this in baby steps, addressing each issue from scripture as it arises.

July 31, 2012 at 1:08 am#307695

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2012,10:55)

Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2012,17:04)

Hi Mike,

Do you include Jesus in Jer.10:11?

Jer 10 is clearly speaking about man-made idols (read verses 3-9), which are no elohim at all, Ed.

EXACTLY my point. …thanks for spelling it out!

July 31, 2012 at 1:10 am#307696