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Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,00:35) …as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty
(but used also of any deity)
Ed,Your source has worded things confusingly. Rearrange the words and you will get the meaning of what he is saying:
Used as an adjective, the word “el” means mighty, and is used of any deity, but especially the Almighty.
You are using a poorly worded definition to claim your source is saying the word “el” actually MEANS “almighty”. Your source is NOT saying that. But, if you insist this IS what your source is saying, then it shouldn't be too hard to find corroboration, right? Show me a SUPPORTING source that says the word “el” MEANS “almighty”.
I can show you MANY sources that agree it means “mighty” – including your beloved KJV, which translates “el” as “mighty” in Gen 23:6 and Psalm 82:1. On the other hand, you cannot show me ANY instance where the word “el”, by itself, is translated as “Almighty”. What does that tell you, Ed?
J42
How can God become…… what he will be?
God already is, what he is.(since always)
God is from everlasting, he doesn't change to be what he wants to be,
your wording makes God sound like he is not stable, that he can change?
How can he be any more perfect than what he already is?
That sounds more like Satan's title.in this I join you ,it is true , edj seems to like to twist scriptures around
Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 01 2012,05:01) (Stick inside the scriptures Mike, the devil wants to send you on a wild goose chase to rely on information outside the Word. The only place you will find truth is in the word)
journey, we wouldn't even know what the word “truth” means if not for “outside sources” such as parents, teachers, and dictionaries. In fact, you wouldn't know the meaning of ANY of the 36 words I quoted above if not for “outside sources”.The first step is to learn what the words written in the Bible actually mean. Only then will you be able to understand the truth written therein.
Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 01 2012,05:01) THERE IS ONLY ONE ALMIGHTY. MIGHTIEST OF MIGHTIES!
And that is what this thread is supposed to be about: The fact that there indeed exist MANY “mighties”, and Jehovah is the mightiest OF those other mighties. Jehovah cannot possibly be the “God of gods” unless there exist other gods for Him to be the God of.Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 01 2012,05:01) Quote And as God said to Moses: “I will be what I will be“
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
The Hebrew “YHWH” is the verb “to be”. It can be translated as “I am”………. OR as “I will be”. Almost everywhere else in scripture, it is translated as “will be”, or “become”.From NETNotes:
The verb form used here is אֶהְיֶה (’ehyeh), the Qal imperfect, first person common singular, of the verb הָיָה (haya, “to be”). It forms an excellent paronomasia with the name. So when God used the verb to express his name, he used this form saying, “I am.” When his people refer to him as Yahweh, which is the third person masculine singular form of the same verb, they say “he is.” Some commentators argue for a future tense translation, “I will be who I will be,” because the verb has an active quality about it, and the Israelites lived in the light of the promises for the future. They argue that “I am” would be of little help to the Israelites in bondage. But a translation of “I will be” does not effectively do much more except restrict it to the future. The idea of the verb would certainly indicate that God is not bound by time, and while he is present (“I am”) he will always be present, even in the future, and so “I am” would embrace that as well.The scholars from NETNotes prefer the “I am” present tense meaning- although they go on to show their bias by pointing to the times Jesus said “I am” in the NT. In other words, they like the “I am” translation because they think that translation gives weight to their belief that Jesus claimed to be God Almighty in the NT.
Other scholars prefer the future “I will be” meaning. The truth of the matter is unknown to us at this time. But knowing these things is half the battle, journey.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,02:19) The Hebrew “YHWH” is the verb “to be”. It can be translated as “I am”………. OR as “I will be”. Almost everywhere else in scripture, it is translated as “will be”, or “become”. From NETNotes:
The verb form used here is אֶהְיֶה (’ehyeh), the Qal imperfect, first person common singular, of the verb הָיָה (haya, “to be”). It forms an excellent paronomasia with the name. So when God used the verb to express his name, he used this form saying, “I am.” When his people refer to him as Yahweh, which is the third person masculine singular form of the same verb, they say “he is.” Some commentators argue for a future tense translation, “I will be who I will be,” because the verb has an active quality about it, and the Israelites lived in the light of the promises for the future. They argue that “I am” would be of little help to the Israelites in bondage. But a translation of “I will be” does not effectively do much more except restrict it to the future. The idea of the verb would certainly indicate that God is not bound by time, and while he is present (“I am”) he will always be present, even in the future, and so “I am” would embrace that as well.The scholars from NETNotes prefer the “I am” present tense meaning- although they go on to show their bias by pointing to the times Jesus said “I am” in the NT. In other words, they like the “I am” translation because they think that translation gives weight to their belief that Jesus claimed to be God Almighty in the NT.
Other scholars prefer the future “I will be” meaning. The truth of the matter is unknown to us at this time. But knowing these things is half the battle, journey.
Mike“I am” and “I will be” have two totally different meanings.
You cannot expect me to believe it means the same?
not in any language.I am Journey
I will be JourneyI am Christian
I will be ChristianThe Jews couldn't even understand God's words, and they spoke Hebrew fluently,
The Greeks couldn't understand God's words, and they spoke Greek fluently,
Mike, because I don't know Hebrew and Greek, it does not mean that I do not understand the scriptures.I know God did not mean it to be this confusing for us,
but for the rest who don't trust in his Word, …….. it is.
that's why HE chose the translators he wanted to use, and guided them to do that work for us,
so we can get straight into the word.
not thousands of unchosen translators with their own agenda's and doctrines tampering with the word he delivered to us.Ecclesiastes 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
We only need one book, not many,
and we never weary of the wordQuote (journey42 @ Sep. 01 2012,10:46) Mike “I am” and “I will be” have two totally different meanings.
journey, the verb itself means “to be”. Depending on context, it could mean “I am”, or “become”, or “I will be”, etc. You must understand that Hebrew is much different than English. Here, let me show you:Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.The Hebrew words are: beginning create God heaven earth
This isn't even close to the best example I could have used, but even with this verse, it is clear to see that in English, we use many more words to convey the same thought. Those extra words are the “best guess” of translators.
This is the definition of the verb “hayah”:
to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall outYou see it refers to existing right now, as in “I am”, but the same verb can refer to being something in the future, as in “become” or “I am to be”. Here's a scriptural example, which doesn't contain the verb “hayah”, but explains the dilemmas translators often face:
Genesis 28:15 NET ©
I am with you! 1 I will protect you wherever you go and will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I promised you!”Footnote #1 says:
Gen 28:15
1 Heb “Look, I [am] with you.” The clause is a nominal clause; the verb to be supplied could be present (as in the translation) or future, “Look, I [will be] with you” (cf. NEB).Many translations, including the KJV, have “I AM with you” in this verse. But many others render it as “I WILL BE with you”.
See? There is much that goes into translating Hebrew to English.
Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 01 2012,10:46) that's why HE chose the translators he wanted to use
There have been MILLIONS of translators who have rendered the scriptures into THOUSANDS of different languages. Did God personally choose each and every translator? Or just those who translated the KJV?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,01:35) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,00:28) ……….lets take a look at the way you would say it: 'the mighty one – almighty' does this make sense?
“El Shaddai” means “The Almighty mighty one”. If the word “el”, by itself, means “almighty”, there would be no need to add the “shaddai” part to the title, Ed.Nor can you say “The Almighty Breasted One”, for then you are giving TWO meanings to the ONE word “shaddai”.
From NETNotes:
The name אֵל שַׁדַּי (’el shadday, “El Shaddai”) has often been translated “God Almighty,” primarily because Jerome translated it omnipotens (“all powerful”) in the Latin Vulgate. There has been much debate over the meaning of the name.The most likely proposal is that the name means “God, the one of the mountain” (an Akkadian cognate means “mountain,” to which the Hebrew שַׁד, shad, “breast” is probably related). The name may originally have depicted God as the sovereign judge who, in Canaanite style, ruled from a sacred mountain.
The direct association of the name with שָׁדַיִם [shadayim, “breasts”] suggests the name might mean “the one of the breast” , but the juxtaposition is probably better explained as wordplay.
It is often rendered “Almighty” because of the LXX and some of the early fathers. The etymology and meaning of the word otherwise remains uncertain, in spite of attempts to connect it to “mountains” or “breasts.”
Ed, you can claim it means “God, the One of the breasts”……….. OR …………. you can claim it means “Almighty” like the LXX, Syriac, and Jerome all rendered it. But you can't give BOTH meanings to the ONE word “shaddai”, and come up with “Almighty Breasted One”. It is EITHER “Almighty”, OR “Breasted One” – not BOTH.
Hi Mike,“EL” means “almighty” when referencing YHVH, and 'mighty one' when referencing others.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,01:45) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,00:35) …as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty
(but used also of any deity)
Ed,Your source has worded things confusingly. Rearrange the words and you will get the meaning of what he is saying:
Used as an adjective, the word “el” means mighty, and is used of any deity, but especially the Almighty.
You are using a poorly worded definition to claim your source is saying the word “el” actually MEANS “almighty”. Your source is NOT saying that. But, if you insist this IS what your source is saying, then it shouldn't be too hard to find corroboration, right? Show me a SUPPORTING source that says the word “el” MEANS “almighty”.
I can show you MANY sources that agree it means “mighty” – including your beloved KJV, which translates “el” as “mighty” in Gen 23:6 and Psalm 82:1. On the other hand, you cannot show me ANY instance where the word “el”, by itself, is translated as “Almighty”. What does that tell you, Ed?
Hi Mike,Is “the Almighty” in this verse also called “God” – yes or no?
“Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee;
and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings
of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under,
blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:” (Gen 49:25)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (journey42 @ Sep. 02 2012,03:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,02:19) The Hebrew “YHWH” is the verb “to be”. It can be translated as “I am”………. OR as “I will be”. Almost everywhere else in scripture, it is translated as “will be”, or “become”. From NETNotes:
The verb form used here is אֶהְיֶה (’ehyeh), the Qal imperfect, first person common singular, of the verb הָיָה (haya, “to be”). It forms an excellent paronomasia with the name. So when God used the verb to express his name, he used this form saying, “I am.” When his people refer to him as Yahweh, which is the third person masculine singular form of the same verb, they say “he is.” Some commentators argue for a future tense translation, “I will be who I will be,” because the verb has an active quality about it, and the Israelites lived in the light of the promises for the future. They argue that “I am” would be of little help to the Israelites in bondage. But a translation of “I will be” does not effectively do much more except restrict it to the future. The idea of the verb would certainly indicate that God is not bound by time, and while he is present (“I am”) he will always be present, even in the future, and so “I am” would embrace that as well.The scholars from NETNotes prefer the “I am” present tense meaning- although they go on to show their bias by pointing to the times Jesus said “I am” in the NT. In other words, they like the “I am” translation because they think that translation gives weight to their belief that Jesus claimed to be God Almighty in the NT.
Other scholars prefer the future “I will be” meaning. The truth of the matter is unknown to us at this time. But knowing these things is half the battle, journey.
Mike“I am” and “I will be” have two totally different meanings.
You cannot expect me to believe it means the same?
not in any language.I am Journey
I will be JourneyI am Christian
I will be ChristianThe Jews couldn't even understand God's words, and they spoke Hebrew fluently,
The Greeks couldn't understand God's words, and they spoke Greek fluently,
Mike, because I don't know Hebrew and Greek, it does not mean that I do not understand the scriptures.I know God did not mean it to be this confusing for us,
but for the rest who don't trust in his Word, …….. it is.
that's why HE chose the translators he wanted to use, and guided them to do that work for us,
so we can get straight into the word.
not thousands of unchosen translators with their own agenda's and doctrines tampering with the word he delivered to us.
Hi Journey42,“Will be”(63) = YHVH(63)
“I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
And I (YHVH) will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.” (Lev 26:11-12)“My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I (YHVH) will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Ezek 37:27)
“as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I (YHVH) will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (2 Cor 6:16)
“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I (YHVH) will be his God, and he shall be my son.” (Rev 21:7)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
(LINK to the thread THAT PROVES GOD’s EXISTENCE)Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,14:07) Hi Mike, “EL” means “almighty” when referencing YHVH, and 'mighty one' when referencing others.
Then show me a scripture where the word “el” is referencing Jehovah, and is translated as “Almighty”.The truth is, when the word “el” refers to Jehovah, we can know it is referring to the Almighty el, because OTHER scriptures tell us this. But the word “el”, in and of itself, NEVER actually MEANS “almighty”. The Hebrews had a word for “almighty”, Ed, and “el” is not it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,07:50) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,14:07) Hi Mike, “EL” means “almighty” when referencing YHVH, and 'mighty one' when referencing others.
Then show me a scripture where the word “el” is referencing Jehovah, and is translated as “Almighty”.The truth is, when the word “el” refers to Jehovah, we can know it is referring to the Almighty el, because OTHER scriptures tell us this. But the word “el”, in and of itself, NEVER actually MEANS “almighty”. The Hebrews had a word for “almighty”, Ed, and “el” is not it.
Hi Mike,Is “the Almighty” in this verse also called “God” – yes or no?
“Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee;
and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings
of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under,
blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:” (Gen 49:25)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,14:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,01:45)
I can show you MANY sources that agree it means “mighty” – including your beloved KJV, which translates “el” as “mighty” in Gen 23:6 and Psalm 82:1. On the other hand, you cannot show me ANY instance where the word “el”, by itself, is translated as “Almighty”. What does that tell you, Ed?
Hi Mike,Is “the Almighty” in this verse also called “God” – yes or no?
“Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee;
and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings
of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under,
blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:” (Gen 49:25)
Yes Ed, the God in that verse is called “Almighty”. And what does that teach us Ed? Doesn't it teach us that the word “el”, in and of itself, does NOT mean “almighty”, and so the author had to use a DIFFERENT word to convey the fact that the God mentioned is Almighty?Why would the author have to use this second word at all, if the word “el” already meant “almighty” Ed?
Oh, and please address my points in the above quote.
journey,
14Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
That bolded part is the verb “hayah”, ie: yhwh. A more literal translation is “and it SHALL BE that every one that findeth me shall slay me.”
You see how the translation of “I AM” will not work in this scripture, right? Yet it is the same verb many translate as “I AM” in Exodus 3:14.
Personally, I don't care whether they translate it as “I AM”, or “I WILL BE”. I just wanted you to understand that these things aren't as cut and dry as you seem to think. There are many sides to the stories, and many choices that must be made.
The FACTS are that “yhwh” in Ex 3:14 COULD MEAN “I AM”………………. but it could just as easily mean “I WILL BE”. There is no way for us to know which one with the info we have available to us today. All I know is that the verb “hayah” is USUALLY translated in other scriptures as the future tense, “I WILL BE”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,07:55) Why would the author have to use this second word at all, if the word “el” already meant “almighty” Ed?
Hi Mike,The same can be said of these verses…
“The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken,” (Psalms 50:1)
“The LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible.” (Deut 7:21 )
“The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.” (Isa 10:21)This proves your logic is “Flawed”.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,07:55) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,14:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,01:45)
I can show you MANY sources that agree it means “mighty” – including your beloved KJV, which translates “el” as “mighty” in Gen 23:6 and Psalm 82:1. On the other hand, you cannot show me ANY instance where the word “el”, by itself, is translated as “Almighty”. What does that tell you, Ed?
Hi Mike,Is “the Almighty” in this verse also called “God” – yes or no?
“Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee;
and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings
of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under,
blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:” (Gen 49:25)
Yes Ed, the God in that verse is called “Almighty”. And what does that teach us Ed? Doesn't it teach us that the word “el”, in and of itself, does NOT mean “almighty”, and so the author had to use a DIFFERENT word to convey the fact that the God mentioned is Almighty?Why would the author have to use this second word at all, if the word “el” already meant “almighty” Ed?
Oh, and please address my points in the above quote.
Hi Mike,In all these verses the usage of “The Almighty” is synonymous with “EL” – do you agree?
“Doth God pervert judgment? or doth
the Almighty pervert justice?” (Job 8:3)“For he stretcheth out his hand against God,
and strengtheneth himself against the Almighty.” (Job 15:25)“For God maketh my heart soft, and
the Almighty troubleth me:” (Job 23:16)“I will teach you by the hand of God:
that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.” (Job 27:11)“The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” (Job 33:4)
“Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.” (Job 34:12)
First I showed you that “EL” when referring to YHVH means “Almighty”,
now I have shown you many verses where the usage of “The Almighty” is synonymous with “EL”.So it is about time you drop your vanity, as it is getting you no where.
“Surely God will not hear vanity, neither will the Almighty regard it.” (Job 35:13)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,15:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2012,07:55) Why would the author have to use this second word at all, if the word “el” already meant “almighty” Ed?
Hi Mike,The same can be said of these verses…
“The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken,” (Psalms 50:1)
“The LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible.” (Deut 7:21 )
“The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.” (Isa 10:21)This proves your logic is “Flawed”.
Not quite, Ed.The word “almighty” is absolute. This means we can say, “He was a mighty, mighty one”, but we can't logically say, “He was an almighty, almighty one”.
This is conveyed in the Jimmy Dean song, Big John. The last verse says, “At the bottom of this pit lies a big, big man, Big John”. This wouldn't work with “biggest, biggest man”.
It's along the lines of the 100% man/100% God theory. This also can't work since 100% is an absolute.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,15:34) Hi Mike, In all these verses the usage of “The Almighty” is synonymous with “EL” – do you agree?
Ruth 1:21
The LORD has afflicted me; the Almighty has brought misfortune upon me.”Isaiah 13:6
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.In the above two scriptures, is “the Almighty” synonymous with “YHWH”? Shall we now change the meaning of “YHWH” to “the Almighty”? Or does it still mean “I will be”?
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,15:34) First I showed you that “EL” when referring to YHVH means “Almighty”…….
No, you haven't. We have learned that the El who created the heavens and the earth IS Almighty. We learned this from OTHER scriptures that tell us WITH OTHER WORDS that this particular El is Almighty. We have NOT seen any example of the word “el” actually MEANING, or BEING TRANSLATED AS “almighty”.Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,15:34) …….now I have shown you many verses where the usage of “The Almighty” is synonymous with “EL”.
No, you have shown scriptures where Jehovah is called both “El” and “the Almighty”. This doesn't prove that “el” MEANS “almighty” any more than my scriptures prove that “YHWH” MEANS “almighty”.Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 01 2012,15:34) So it is about time you drop your vanity, as it is getting you no where.
Perhaps it is time YOU drop YOUR game playing, and show me a scripture where the word “el” is TRANSLATED AS “almighty”. I've shown you two already where it is translated as “mighty”, and I can show you more along those lines if you'd like.But first, show me a scripture where “el” is translated as “almighty”. And also, show me a supporting dictionary that says “el” means “almighty” – because you are reading the definition you posted wrong. Your original source never said the word MEANS “almighty” like you mistakenly believe. So, show a back-up source to corroborate what you mistakenly believe your first source is saying.
Hi Mike, your absolutism fails you here…
Balaam said to Balak king of Moab:
“How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed?” (Num 23:8)What does Balaam actually mean…
(Mike) (Num 23:8) “How shall I curse, whom [the mighty one] hath not cursed?” …what mighty one?
(Ed) (Num 23:8) “How shall I curse, whom [the Almighty] hath not cursed?” …”EL” of course.
What would it matter what “EL” does or does not do if “EL” is not “The Almighty”? …the mightiest of the mightiest.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 03 2012,09:52) Hi Mike, your absolutism fails you here… Balaam said to Balak king of Moab:
“How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed?” (Num 23:8)What does Balaam actually mean…
(Mike) (Num 23:8) “How shall I curse, whom [the mighty one] hath not cursed?” …what mighty one?
(Ed) (Num 23:8) “How shall I curse, whom [the Almighty] hath not cursed?” …”EL” of course.
What would it matter what “EL” does or does not do if “EL” is not “The Almighty”? …the mightiest of the mightiest.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Here's another…(Mike) Num 23:19 [The mighty one] is not a man, that he should lie;
neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said,
and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? …what mighty one?(Ed) Num 23:19 [The Almighty] is not a man, that he should lie;
neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said,
and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? …”EL” of course!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Mike,
When I say “God bless” – why don't you say which 'mighty one' do you want to bless me?
Your argument is pure vanity
“Surely [The Almighty] will not hear vanity, neither will [God] regard it.” (Job 35:13)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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